Oxidation concerns during processes

[Triwing]

Hello I'm new to the forum and the brewing world,

I have some issues with my first brew. Currently, my apple juice is fermenting with a sweet cider yeast from Arsegan in a fermenting bucket (see picture).
However, I have some concerns regarding oxidation during the processes to come.

Fermenting
Firstly I would like to ask how to get a sample from my brewing bucket in order to have as little oxidation as possible (I don't own a wine thief). Should I use the valve on the bottom to get a sample (this will also contain sediment since it is at the bottom)? Secondly, when fermenting is done, should I bottle immediatly or should I let it rest? Does the resting period let the cider acquire more flavors or not? Also if I let it sit for a period, should I be concerned that only 20 of the maximum capacity of 25 liters is filled with my cider?

Racking
Is a secondary needed to rack off to or can I keep it in my primary? In my case I think I should rack since I have a lot of sediment (apple pulp and lees), but I don't really have a secondary. Is it possible to put the cider somewhere temporary (like another open bucket), then clean up my fermenting bucket and rack it back into the bucket? If I do this, I'm affraid oxidation will get to my cider so I think I should leave it in my primary and then bottle directly?

Back sweeten
I want to brew a carbonated cider and I also like a sweet cider. Hence why l ordered erythritol because I read online that it doesn't add an artificial flavor and it's better than other sugar alcohols in regards to its laxative nature. The question is firstly, how do I add the erythritol and sugar for carbonation. Do I add it in my brewing bucket as a whole before I bottle (and do I need to whisk it?) or should I add both sugars in the bottles separately? Next, if I add the sugars as a whole to my brewing bucket, doesn't it create too much oxidation with the lid open?

It would be a major help if you can answer any/all of my question(s)!

 

[Maylar]

I use a sanitized turkey baster to take samples. As long as the test vial and hydrometer are also sanitized, I just pour the sample back in. You don't need to worry about oxygen at this stage unless you get carried away making bubbles when racking. It'd be OK to transfer to another pot and back to your cleaned bucket if you're careful with the siphon. I've used Xylitol for sweetening and about 3 tbsp per gallon worked well for me. You can add that with your primng sugar before bottling.

 

[Rick Stephens]

For primary fermentation almost anything goes as long as it is kept clean.

I'm not a big fan of buckets for secondary fermentation. Aging in a bucket leaves a huge surface for oxygen to get in. In fact, I'm not all that big of a fan of the 5 gallon glass big mouth bubblers I am currently using for the same reasons. I am going to end up purchasing some standard carboys in the Alhambra water jug tradition in the future where it is so easy to limit how much surface area and headspace is present during secondary.

I like mixing my sweeteners before bottling by heating up just enough water to dissolve it into. Then I add the water to the batch. It can be really tough to get the sugar, especially the sugar alcohols, the dissolve in the cider without excessive stirring. Don't boil sugars though. That can change the crystal structure enough to make it stay gooey and separated from the cider even long after bottling.

 

[Triwing]

I use a sanitized turkey baster to take samples. As long as the test vial and hydrometer are also sanitized, I just pour the sample back in. You don't need to worry about oxygen at this stage unless you get carried away making bubbles when racking. It'd be OK to transfer to another pot and back to your cleaned bucket if you're careful with the siphon. I've used Xylitol for sweetening and about 3 tbsp per gallon worked well for me. You can add that with your primng sugar before bottling.

Okay, so as I'm interpreting your answer as it's fine to open the lid of the bucket at fermenting stage to get some samples, but what about opening the lid after the fermenting is done to rack (temporary in the open bucket and then back in the fermenting bucket) or to add the sugars?

For primary fermentation almost anything goes as long as it is kept clean.

I'm not a big fan of buckets for secondary fermentation. Aging in a bucket leaves a huge surface for oxygen to get in. In fact, I'm not all that big of a fan of the 5 gallon glass big mouth bubblers I am currently using for the same reasons. I am going to end up purchasing some standard carboys in the Alhambra water jug tradition in the future where it is so easy to limit how much surface area and headspace is present during secondary.

I like mixing my sweeteners before bottling by heating up just enough water to dissolve it into. Then I add the water to the batch. It can be really tough to get the sugar, especially the sugar alcohols, the dissolve in the cider without excessive stirring. Don't boil sugars though. That can change the crystal structure enough to make it stay gooey and separated from the cider even long after bottling.

Yes, I thought about buying some carboys to rack the fermented cider into. However, is it really a necessity to leave it in a secondary for a period and for how long then? Also, if I were to use them, how can I add the sugars to the carboys, through the small opening or should I rack it to something else before bottling?

 

[Rick Stephens]

Okay, so as I'm interpreting your answer as it's fine to open the lid of the bucket at fermenting stage to get some samples, but what about opening the lid after the fermenting is done to rack (temporary in the open bucket and then back in the fermenting bucket) or to add the sugars?

So, I believe what you call a fermenting bucket pretty much everyone else would call a bottling bucket. Really tough to use the valve on the bottom to bottle when it is full of lees. Most will rack off of their fermenting bucket or carboy into the bottling bucket then use a wand to fill bottles.

Yes, I thought about buying some carboys to rack the fermented cider into. However, is it really a necessity to leave it in a secondary for a period and for how long then? Also, if I were to use them, how can I add the sugars to the carboys, through the small opening or should I rack it to something else before bottling?

If you use a bottling bucket, then after secondary is done, you rack back into the bottling bucket and add (gently) whatever sugar or other additions then bottle. You do not add anything through the little hole on a carboy usually. Can, but have to be careful.

Secondary is a process of aging. Every cider requires a different amount of time to age. Some ciders, depending on goal and what yeast used, can be bottled in a couple weeks with no aging at all. Others, like the Grahams English I have aging now, are best after at least 4 or 5 months.

Why age? Well, early on some ciders taste like rocket fuel. Depends on how dry it fermented, but all you really taste is the alcohol. Just like wines, aging mellows and blends the alcohol with the other compounds in the cider. Tastes tend to get better and better over time. Many cider aficionados like to age for a year or more to get the mellowest taste. Again, just like wines. Apple Cider is just an apple wine, after all.

 

[Triwing]

So, I believe what you call a fermenting bucket pretty much everyone else would call a bottling bucket. Really tough to use the valve on the bottom to bottle when it is full of lees. Most will rack off of their fermenting bucket or carboy into the bottling bucket then use a wand to fill bottles.



If you use a bottling bucket, then after secondary is done, you rack back into the bottling bucket and add (gently) whatever sugar or other additions then bottle. You do not add anything through the little hole on a carboy usually. Can, but have to be careful.

Secondary is a process of aging. Every cider requires a different amount of time to age. Some ciders, depending on goal and what yeast used, can be bottled in a couple weeks with no aging at all. Others, like the Grahams English I have aging now, are best after at least 4 or 5 months.

Why age? Well, early on some ciders taste like rocket fuel. Depends on how dry it fermented, but all you really taste is the alcohol. Just like wines, aging mellows and blends the alcohol with the other compounds in the cider. Tastes tend to get better and better over time. Many cider aficionados like to age for a year or more to get the mellowest taste. Again, just like wines. Apple Cider is just an apple wine, after all.

Damn, thanks for addressing all my issues, it's all way more clear now! I'll buy a carboy to rack off to and leave it in for some time. Next, I'll rack back to the bucket with valve to bottle. Can I still rack to secondary after fermenting is fully done or should I do it a bit before it is fully done? Also, the amount of time the cider should stay in secondary is purely by taste testing then? Lastly, is there a difference in aging in secondary versus aging in the bottles?

 

[Raptor99]

I like mixing my sweeteners before bottling by heating up just enough water to dissolve it into. Then I add the water to the batch. It can be really tough to get the sugar, especially the sugar alcohols, the dissolve in the cider without excessive stirring. Don't boil sugars though. That can change the crystal structure enough to make it stay gooey and separated from the cider even long after bottling.

I do this as well. But I simmer the water and carbonation sugar for about 15-20 minutes. That creates a partially "reduced" sugar with smaller sugar molecules. According to what I read, that creates smaller bubbles of CO2 and gives a better effect when you pour the cider. (Sorry, right now I cannot find the link to that article). To do this, I need to use a bit more water than Rick uses.

 

[Rick Stephens]

Primary fermentation uses oxygen and nitrogen. Don't even need an airlock. Most of the time I just wait until activity has dropped to near nothing and call that end of primary. Then rack off into another carboy for secondary, discarding all the lees in the first carboy. In secondary I top off with fresh juice and plug in a clean airlock with vodka.

Many of the more scientific members of this forum will state that you end primary when your hydrometer shows you have reached the end of the ferment. That really requires some experience with how far down any given yeast is going to take your gravity at the temperatures you are using. Since I have been trying lots of different yeasts lately, I judge end of primary when it finished active fermentation and outgassing of CO2.

 

[Rick Stephens]

I do this as well. But I simmer the water and carbonation sugar for about 15-20 minutes. That creates a partially "reduced" sugar with smaller sugar molecules. According to what I read, that creates smaller bubbles of CO2 and gives a better effect when you pour the cider. (Sorry, right now I cannot find the link to that article). To do this, I need to use a bit more water than Rick uses.

I'd be interested in the article. Doggonit, always more to learn.

 

[Rick Stephens]

Lastly, is there a difference in aging in secondary versus aging in the bottles?

My issue with aging after bottling is you cannot adjust to taste.

 

[Raptor99]

I used the wrong term. It is called invert sugar, not "reduced" sugar. Here is the definition: Inverted sugar syrup - Wikipedia. The sucrose is broken down into glucose and fructose, which are smaller molecules and easier for the yeast to digest. The way I do it, I am only partially inverting the sugar. I probably do not get it hot enough for long enough to fully invert it.

I found a discussion on using invert sugar for priming here: benefit of priming with invert sugar? But I still don't remember where I read that it produces smaller bubbles. If I find it I will post an update.

BTW, I use brown sugar for priming my cider. I like the extra flavors it provides.

 

[Raptor99]

My issue with aging after bottling is you cannot adjust to taste.

I agree. I want to get everything right before bottling. I usually age my cider for 4-5 months in a carboy, then another 2 months or longer in the bottles. I have discovered that if I am patient I get a cider with a much better, more complex flavor.

 

[Maylar]

Okay, so as I'm interpreting your answer as it's fine to open the lid of the bucket at fermenting stage to get some samples, but what about opening the lid after the fermenting is done to rack (temporary in the open bucket and then back in the fermenting bucket) or to add the sugars?

You're talking about very short term exposure, oxidation takes a long time. Only if you pour and splash that would mix air into the cider would there be any risk. That's why we use a siphon to move it from one vessel to another. I typically extract my samples from the airlock bung hole.