Opinions on BIAB with Top Up Water

[ahariton]

I'd like to get some opinions on doing a 10 gallone 1.093 OG beer biab using a keggle and top up water.

According to beersmith, I could mash in with 11.6 gallons, leaving enough room in the keggle for the water and 33 lbs of grains. Grain weight isn't a problem, as a brew in my carport and have a pulley for pulling the bag.

After the mash, I could add 3.5 gallons of water, bringing my pre-boil volume to 12.7 gallons. Another gallon of kettle top up water gets me to planned 10.5 gallons in the fermenter.

Would love to get some opinions on this.

Thanks

Andy

 

[jtratcliff]

Don't just top off with the water. Hoist the bag a little ways out of the "first runnings" and do a pour-over sparge with the top-off water. And squeeze the bag for all you're worth!

If you squeeze you might not need all the sparge .... Does your grain absorption in beersmith account for squeezing?

I typically mash, squeeze, dunk sparge, squeeze. And my absorption is set significantly lower than normal 3 vessel type settings.

 

[ong]

I don't see a problem with not doing a full volume mash. You could do the 3.5 gallons as a dunk or pourover sparge to bump efficiency a bit.

 

[ahariton]

A pour over sparge could work.

Is the idea to heat the water to the 168 sparge temperature?

I do typically squeeze the beg pretty well and have that factored into my grain absorption in beersmith.

 

[soccerdad]

I would not squeeze 30 pounds of hot grain. Pour over with 165 degree water. IMO

 

[Cider123]

Sparging would be much better than topping off with water. However,

at the risk of getting lamb-baisted here, I will tell you that there are some of us that believe that full strike water mashing is the best case scenario. Now you need to sparge with your setup and that is just fine. But, at the risk of you beleiving that it is also the best method, I will offer a counter-point.

If you go to BIABrewer.info you will find a host of people with lots of great info on BIAB. In fact, some were involved in first designing it. Based on many tests using scientific method, they have shown that full strike water mashing is more efficient to sparging if you have the capability to do so. You can read all the reasons at the website, I don't claim to remember it all. But I look at it this way,

The best way to get solutes, like the sugars, to diffuse out of the bag and into the kettle is to have a very high concentration gradient. That means when you have the high concentration of solutes inside the bag and very little outside because you start out with pure water. Because you have so much water outside the bag, as the solutes diffuse it takes of lot of movement to increase the concentration of solutes outside the bag so the natural process continues at a high rate. The rate of diffusion slows as the concentration difference starts to balance on both sides of the bag.
When you sparge, what you are really doing is running two smaller events where you have a large concentration gradient to begin with with solutes inside the bag and pure water outside. What they have shown works better is to only run the process of diffusion once with a large volume of water outside the bag and maintain a steep concentration gradient for the longest time.

Perhaps boring and others will believe it to be wrong, but this is my humble opinion. Take it or leave it

 

[ahariton]

Sparging would be much better than topping off with water. However,

at the risk of getting lamb-baisted here, I will tell you that there are some of us that believe that full strike water mashing is the best case scenario. Now you need to sparge with your setup and that is just fine. But, at the risk of you beleiving that it is also the best method, I will offer a counter-point.

If you go to BIABrewer.info you will find a host of people with lots of great info on BIAB. In fact, some were involved in first designing it. Based on many tests using scientific method, they have shown that full strike water mashing is more efficient to sparging if you have the capability to do so. You can read all the reasons at the website, I don't claim to remember it all. But I look at it this way,

The best way to get solutes, like the sugars, to diffuse out of the bag and into the kettle is to have a very high concentration gradient. That means when you have the high concentration of solutes inside the bag and very little outside because you start out with pure water. Because you have so much water outside the bag, as the solutes diffuse it takes of lot of movement to increase the concentration of solutes outside the bag so the natural process continues at a high rate. The rate of diffusion slows as the concentration difference starts to balance on both sides of the bag.
When you sparge, what you are really doing is running two smaller events where you have a large concentration gradient to begin with with solutes inside the bag and pure water outside. What they have shown works better is to only run the process of diffusion once with a large volume of water outside the bag and maintain a steep concentration gradient for the longest time.

Perhaps boring and others will believe it to be wrong, but this is my humble opinion. Take it or leave it

Thanks Cider

I did a lot of reading on biab.info when I got started.

While I definitely prefer using full volume, it's unfortunately not an option without replacing my keggle if I want to move up to 10 gallon batches, so I'm considering options.

Other thought is to do a double brew day, although I'd rather brew once if I can get good results using either sparge or top up water.

 

[Cider123]

I once owned a 10 gallon kettle for 1 week. I realized it was going to be a pain in the. So I sold it on ebay for a slight loss and bought the same pot in 15 gallons. Have been happy ever since.
It's worth going SS and get a thick 3 ply bottom You no wanna your bag to melt

 

[chickypad]

Should be no problem with your plan, though I agree with the others might as well sparge as much as you can fit in your boil. I have done a number of top off BIAB batches on a smaller scale with good results. My usual system is a 5 gal pot for 3 gal finished, but for several of my medium gravity beers I regularly make 3 gal of concentrated wort and top off to 5 gal. I'd probably prefer to do a full volume mash, but not enough to make me want to buy a bigger pot and move the production off the stovetop to a bigger burner (I've got my big outdoor system for that). FWIW the beers I've brewed like this are all proven recipes and I can tell no difference between my regular all grain batches and the topped off batches. And that's topping off 40%, you're only planning an extra gallon or so in 10 gal.

 

[ahariton]

I once owned a 10 gallon kettle for 1 week. I realized it was going to be a pain in the. So I sold it on ebay for a slight loss and bought the same pot in 15 gallons. Have been happy ever since.
It's worth going SS and get a thick 3 ply bottom You no wanna your bag to melt

10g would be WAY too small.

I have a 15.5 gallon keggle. It's fantastic for 5 gallon batches....not so much for 10 gallon.

 

[wilserbrewer]

It is so easy to to do some type of sparge that adding top up water should be a last resort.

Sparging in a second pot or bucket, or pour water over through the bag. One can even rest the bag over the kettle on a couple brew spoons and pour over sparge. Too much sugar left in that large grain bill too toss out IMHO.

Maybe partiguile sp? A small batch if you don't want to sparge, just another option.

 

[ArcLight]

... I could mash in with 11.6 gallons, leaving enough room in the keggle for the water and 33 lbs of grains. Grain weight isn't a problem, as a brew in my carport and have a pulley for pulling the bag.

Andy,
I would mash at 1.25qt/lb, or 8.5 gallons.

Then use the remaining water for a few minute dunk sparge in a second vessel (while your wort is heating up to boiling).
1. raise the bag, let gravity drain it for several minutes.
2. There will be some wort at the bottom, squeeze it several times.
3. lower the bag into a second pot, pour in the water, and stir.
4. I stir it around for a couple of minutes then raise the bag and repeats steps 1 and 2

In my experience the more grain you use, the more additional sugar you gain from a dunk sparge. At least 10% more fermentables.

 

[ahariton]

Thanks everyone for all of the input.

For those of you who dunk sparge, how big of a vessel do you think I'd need for a 30+ # grain bill?

 

[wilserbrewer]

Thanks everyone for all of the input.



For those of you who dunk sparge, how big of a vessel do you think I'd need for a 30+ # grain bill?

A big one for sure, the larger the more convenient. Say 15-20 gallons. Another reason I like the pour over sparge over the dunk sparge. Less handling, maybe a tad less efficient, but so damn easy....I like easy.

 

[ahariton]

Sounds like I'll have to stick with a pour over sparge. The largest container I have other than the keggle is a 6.5 gallon fermenting bucket.

 

[ArcLight]

Sounds like I'll have to stick with a pour over sparge. The largest container I have other than the keggle is a 6.5 gallon fermenting bucket.

For 30 pounds that would be a bit tight, but you could make it work.
Pour sparge not dunk sparge.


And you can use room temperature sparge water, it doesn't have to be 150 or 170. The sugar is no where near the saturation point.

 

[wilserbrewer]

For 30 pounds that would be a bit tight, but you could make it work.

.

30 lbs in a 6 gallon bucket "dunk sparge",I hope it's an outdoor event, and wear some flip flops that you can hose off afterwords.

 

[jahdub]

If the keggle has a spigot, you could drain the "first runnings" into another vessel. Add the appropriate amount of water to rinse the grains. Hang your bag to drain or do whatever you normally do, then add back the originally drained wort.

 

[ArcLight]

30 lbs in a 6 gallon bucket "dunk sparge",I hope it's an outdoor event, and wear some flip flops that you can hose off afterwords.

OK, in fairness I haven't tried that scenario. I have a second 7.5 gallon pot that I put the grain bag in and It'd been fine with 22+ pounds of grain. For the dunk sparge I would just want the grains all uniformly wet, and not have channeling. But you are right, it's 30 pounds of grain, not 22+

I retract what I said. I hate sticky toes.

 

[wilserbrewer]

OK, in fairness I haven't tried that scenario.

Ok, in fairness, I misspoke a little as well. I misread and was thinking 6 gal bucket vs 6.5, so the grain may just barely fit "in theory" in volume, by dimension the lump of grain in the bag will far exceed the dia of the bucket.

The point I was trying to make is that someone brewing 30 lb grain bills can easily afford to throw an additional pound or so of grain at a recipe, rather than man handle a 30 lb ( say 50 lb wet) grain bag into a 6.5 gallon narrow bucket to sparge.

Brewing is hard enough, best IMO to make it as easy as possible.

Cheers!

 

[ahariton]

If the keggle has a spigot, you could drain the "first runnings" into another vessel. Add the appropriate amount of water to rinse the grains. Hang your bag to drain or do whatever you normally do, then add back the originally drained wort.

I think this is exactly what I'm going to try for my first attempt at a 10 gallon batch this weekend.

Thanks!!

 

[ahariton]

Worked out really well.

Mashed in with 10g for a 20# grain bill.

After the mash-out, I drained approx 4g into a bucket, and did a pour over sparge with 4g of ground temp water.

I pulled the grain bag and added back in my "first runnings", giving me a pre-boil volume of 13g.

Will definitely do this again.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Worked out really well.



Mashed in with 10g for a 10# grain bill.



After the mash-out, I drained approx 4g into a bucket, and did a pour over sparge with 4g of ground temp water.



I pulled the grain bag and added back in my "first runnings", giving me a pre-boil volume of 13g.



Will definitely do this again.

While this works, it may be more efficient to mash with 7-8 gallons, drain or remove bag and sparge with 5-6 gallons. Pure water will rinse the grain better than mix of water and wort.

 

[TexasWine]

Worked out really well.

Mashed in with 10g for a 10# grain bill.

After the mash-out, I drained approx 4g into a bucket, and did a pour over sparge with 4g of ground temp water.

I pulled the grain bag and added back in my "first runnings", giving me a pre-boil volume of 13g.

Will definitely do this again.

I'm lost. How did you sparge without removing the bag or draining the entire contents of the mash liquid?

 

[chickypad]

Mashed in with 10g for a 10# grain bill.

It wasn't really a 10 lb grainbill, was it? Agree with the others that "sparge" technique sounds odd. What was your OG?

 

[ahariton]

I'm lost. How did you sparge without removing the bag or draining the entire contents of the mash liquid?

I have the bag suspended by a ratched pulley. Top of the grain bed was just below the top of the keggle.

 

[ahariton]

It wasn't really a 10 lb grainbill, was it? Agree with the others that "sparge" technique sounds odd. What was your OG?

Sorry - was 20#, not 10. Fixed in the post.

While I agree it's not quite traditional, seemed to work very well.

Based mostly on the feedback in this thread, seemed the best way for doing a 10 gallon biab in my keggle.

 

[TexasWine]

Worked out really well.

Mashed in with 10g for a 20# grain bill.

After the mash-out, I drained approx 4g into a bucket, and did a pour over sparge with 4g of ground temp water.

I pulled the grain bag and added back in my "first runnings", giving me a pre-boil volume of 13g.

Will definitely do this again.

I hope I'm not coming across as dense. I'm really not, promise. But I'm still thoroughly confused. You did a pour over sparge, and THEN pulled the grain bag. How did you sparge without removing the bag, and consequently the grain, from the wort?

 

[Chris_Primavera]

The nice thing about adding water before the boil is that you can hit your pre-boil gravity exactly by adjusting how much water you add.

 

[jtratcliff]

How did you sparge without removing the bag, and consequently the grain, from the wort?

looks like to me that he removed the 1st runnings, then added more water. More of a batch sparge than a pour over...

 

[TexasWine]

looks like to me that he removed the 1st runnings, then added more water. More of a batch sparge than a pour over...

I saw that he removed 4 gallons of first runnings, but he mashed with 10 gallons, meaning he left a lot behind while doing a sparge. I'm still not getting what actually happened.

 

[ahariton]

I saw that he removed 4 gallons of first runnings, but he mashed with 10 gallons, meaning he left a lot behind while doing a sparge. I'm still not getting what actually happened.

Sorry - was out of town last several days.

You have it right - I mashed with 10 gallons.

After the mash I suspended the back from a ratchet pulley overhead and drained out approx 4 gallons, leaving approx 4.5 gallons in the keggle.

I poured 4.3 gallons through the grain bag, gave it a good squeeze and added back the 4 gallons for first running.

All of that gave me just under 13 gallons pre-boil.

Make sense? If not I can post some pictures next time I brew. It worked out well and I hit all of my numbers right on, so am definitely planning on using this method again.

 

[TexasWine]

Sorry - was out of town last several days.

You have it right - I mashed with 10 gallons.

After the mash I suspended the back from a ratchet pulley overhead and drained out approx 4 gallons, leaving approx 4.5 gallons in the keggle.

I poured 4.3 gallons through the grain bag, gave it a good squeeze and added back the 4 gallons for first running.

All of that gave me just under 13 gallons pre-boil.

Make sense? If not I can post some pictures next time I brew. It worked out well and I hit all of my numbers right on, so am definitely planning on using this method again.

Oh totally makes sense now. You just did a typical sparge, but removed a few gallons beforehand. Any reason you pulled those 4 gallons out before sparging?

 

[ahariton]

Oh totally makes sense now. You just did a typical sparge, but removed a few gallons beforehand. Any reason you pulled those 4 gallons out before sparging?

I had to pull out the 4 gallons to make room in the keggle for the pour over, keeping in mind the grain bag was still hanging partially inside the keggle.

Once I did the pourover and pulled the grain bag completely out, there was room to add the 4 gallons back in.

I'll post some pictures of the whole process next time I do a 10 gallon batch in a few weeks.

 

[chickypad]

Okay, yeah, that sounds pretty typical sparge then. In your first description when you said you sparged then pulled the bag I thought you were just adding more ground water to the mash with the bag and grains still in it.