Oat Wine - feedback please

[signpost]

So, here's my recipe straight from Beersmith. The 2-row will be the last of what's left in my sack of plain 2-row plus some Maris Otter to make up the difference up to 10 lbs. I'm thinking of this as essentially a barley wine with a whole bunch of oats. According to Beersmith the stats (OG, IBU, SRM, ABV) are right down the middle of the style guidelines for an English Barleywine.

Boil Size: 6.40 gal
Post Boil Volume: 4.68 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 4.50 gal
Estimated OG: 1.098 SG
Estimated Color: 16.2 SRM
Estimated IBU: 48.5 IBUs
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
10 lbs - Brewers Malt 2-Row (Briess) (1.8 SRM) - 62.5 %
5 lbs - Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) - 31.3 %
8.0 oz - Brown Malt (65.0 SRM) - 3.1 %
8.0 oz - Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) - 3.1 %

Protein Rest - Add 18.20 qt of water at 132.9 F - 122.0 F - 30 min
Saccharification - Add 12.20 qt of water at 207.5 F - 152.0 F - 75 min

Batch sparge with 0.87gal of 168.0 F water

1.00 oz - Pilgrim [9.10 %] - Boil 60.0 min - 32.4 IBUs
1.00 oz - Pilgrim [9.10 %] - Boil 15.0 min - 16.1 IBUs

Thames Valley Ale II (Wyeast #1882-PC) - yeast cake from a batch of Ol' Bitter Bastard

1.00 Items - Cinnamon Stick (fermenter 7.0 days)
1.00 Items - Nutmeg (fermenter 7.0 days)
5.00 lb - Apples, carmelized (fermenter 14.0 days or until fermented out)

The apples, cinnamon, and nutmeg are meant to be light accents, reminiscent of a steaming bowl of oatmeal on a cold morning. I'd rather they be hard to detect than to forward in the aroma/flavor. I'm guessing I'll have to keep a close eye on how the flavor is extracted from the cinnamon and nutmeg, so I may do the carmelized apples first and then when that is fermented out, add the others. That way I can bottle it up as soon as it hits the flavor I'm aiming for.

Any feedback would be cool.

Thanks.

 

[imasickboy]

I'd swap some of the flaked oats for oat malt. 31% would just be too much, for too little gain, IMO.

 

[signpost]

I'm not sure what you mean.

Are you referring to diastatic power for conversion?

 

[rlmiller10]

If you are going to bother with the sparge I would double the size and then boil longer. Seems a .9 gal sparge is hardly worth the extra time.

 

[Ramitt]

Sounds chewy.

 

[imasickboy]

I'm not sure what you mean.

Are you referring to diastatic power for conversion?

I was referring to the change in body added by the flaked oats. I would think that that change would be minimal after a certain point, maybe 10-15% flaked?

At 31%, you're creating potential problems. Conversion wasn't the first thing that came to my mind, but is something worth investigating. My first thought was the sheer volume of rice hulls you'll have to add to that mash to be able to run it off. 31% flaked is going to be sticky.

I look at it as a risk/reward thing. Problems in the mashtun vs. potential change in the beer's body.

I really don't know at what percentage that this argument becomes a moot point, because I typically stop between 8-10%, but that's just my preference.

I won't say 31% is a bad idea, but just that it will require some extra care.

 

[IslandLizard]

This is an intriguing recipe, I love oats!

If you use 31% of flaked oats I'd give it a good beta-glucanase rest at 95-113°F. Even when substituting 2/3s of it with malted oats. If using 100% flaked I'd boil those up to make sure they're gelatinized. Or do a cereal mash, again incorporating a beta-glucanase rest.

Agreed on increasing the sparge water, 1 gallon is not enough. And use plenty of rice hulls.

Just as an indication of how much water is needed to boil those flaked/rolled oats. When I make porridge I use 2x the volume of milk to oats, and it turns out just right, thick and creamy and not like concrete. It will stick to the bottom if not continually scraped and stirred.

It's probably wise to use 2x that amount of water to boil or cereal mash them in. That then becomes part of your strike water.

 

[signpost]

I just realized it says flaked oats because I couldn't find a better option in Beersmith. I'll be using plain old Quaker oats. If I understand correctly, that means I don't have to worry about gelatinizing them, right?

And I'll definitely be using plenty of rice hulls.

What are the effects of a beta-glucanase rest between 95-113°F vs. a protein rest at 122°F? Would it make sense to do both? Or do I just pick one or the other?

 

[JKaranka]

I'd skip the spices and apple. Curious how it turns out without them to start with. Plenty of work with that mash already. If you don't hit the numbers you expect you can very safely top up with sugar.

 

[IslandLizard]

I just realized it says flaked oats because I couldn't find a better option in Beersmith. I'll be using plain old Quaker oats. If I understand correctly, that means I don't have to worry about gelatinizing them, right?

And I'll definitely be using plenty of rice hulls.

What are the effects of a beta-glucanase rest between 95-113°F vs. a protein rest at 122°F? Would it make sense to do both? Or do I just pick one or the other?

If you have Palmer's How to Brew look up oatmeal (p126) and beta-glucanase rest (p145).

Plain old Quaker oats? There are many kinds.

Not all oats are flaked the same. From what I gather, "Instant" oats are 100% gelatinized, "Quick" (flaked) oats only partially, "Old Fashioned" or rolled oats even less or minimally. Whole oat kernels (groats) and steel cut oats are not gelatinized at all. To be converted in the mash all adjuncts need to be gelatinized so the enzymes can get to the starches. Pre-boiling or even better, a cereal mash will achieve that.

If you want more of a nutty flavor from the oats, a slight toast (20-40') in a warm oven brings that out, turn them often, don't let them burn or get too dark. The difference in taste is amazing!

A 20 minute beta-gluconase rest between 95 and 113F will break down the gummy beta-glucans which will make the mash less stiff and gluey, beneficial when larger amounts of unmalted oats, rye, wheat and barley are being used. Even with malted wheat, rye, and oats that rest can prevent lautering problems later.

 

[signpost]

I'd skip the spices and apple. Curious how it turns out without them to start with. Plenty of work with that mash already. If you don't hit the numbers you expect you can very safely top up with sugar.

I guess can I use a 1-gallon jug to experiment with the spices and apples. I have a while to decide on that though, because that won't be until after primary fermentation is done anyway.

If you have Palmer's How to Brew look up oatmeal (p126) and beta-glucanase rest (p145).

Plain old Quaker oats? There are many kinds.

Not all oats are flaked the same. From what I gather, "Instant" oats are 100% gelatinized, "Quick" (flaked) oats only partially, "Old Fashioned" or rolled oats even less or minimally. Whole oat kernels (groats) and steel cut oats are not gelatinized at all. To be converted in the mash all adjuncts need to be gelatinized so the enzymes can get to the starches. Pre-boiling or even better, a cereal mash will achieve that.

If you want more of a nutty flavor from the oats, a slight toast (20-40') in a warm oven brings that out, turn them often, don't let them burn or get too dark. The difference in taste is amazing!

A 20 minute beta-gluconase rest between 95 and 113F will break down the gummy beta-glucans which will make the mash less stiff and gluey, beneficial when larger amounts of unmalted oats, rye, wheat and barley are being used. Even with malted wheat, rye, and oats that rest can prevent lautering problems later.

Thanks for that info. I just read through that portion of How To brew. I've recommended the book to beginners, but I forget to go back and check it as a reference. Looks like I need to rework my mash schedule.

 

[IslandLizard]

I guess can I use a 1-gallon jug to experiment with the spices and apples. I have a while to decide on that though, because that won't be until after primary fermentation is done anyway.

Thanks for that info. I just read through that portion of How To brew. I've recommended the book to beginners, but I forget to go back and check it as a reference. Looks like I need to rework my mash schedule.

How are you going to caramelize the apples? In a pot on the stove with some sugar? I think it's a great idea. Now the spices (cinnamon) are a different story... can be interesting if it's not too much.

I read How to Brew front to back when I started brewing, and although most made sense I couldn't see the exact applications and scenarios of all of it until I hit those particular areas over the years. For example, decoction mashing, cereal mashing, gelatinization of adjuncts, different oat flakes. Last year I gave a presentation on Malt, and I realized I actually knew so little. And the information he gives is very condensed, so much wisdom in a few pages, no fluff. So yes, it's a very valuable resource. Now some things have been debunked a bit, like use of secondaries, and dry yeast hydration/proofing methods, but most is still very current and will always be.

 

[signpost]

I'm not sure if I'm going to do the apples on the stove or in the oven. Either way, I'll be adding a bit of sugar and cooking them until they get some good color and are super broken down. I'll have to search some cooking websites to see if low & slow is the way to go, or if I should plan on a higher temp.

If I do use the cinnamon and nutmeg, I'll add it after the apples have fermented out so I can go ahead and bottle once it extracts enough flavor. My plan is to leave a cinnamon stick whole, but smash one whole nutmeg with a hammer. I'll put both of them in a cheesecloth, so I can remove them easily in case I can't bottle immediately when it's ready.

Also, I've changed my mash rests to 110°F for 30 minutes and 152°F for 75 minutes. The 110°F is near the high end of the beta-glucanase range, because my mashes tend to lose temp a bit during the beginning of the mash. When I add the infusion to get up to the saccharification rest, I'll be pushing the limit of what my 10 gallon mash tun can hold. That should be fun.

 

[signpost]

Grains are all weighed out. Ended up with 6.5 lbs. regular 2-row and 3.5 lbs. Maris Otter (Munton's blend). Brewing tomorrow.

 

[IslandLizard]

I'm not sure if I'm going to do the apples on the stove or in the oven. Either way, I'll be adding a bit of sugar and cooking them until they get some good color and are super broken down. I'll have to search some cooking websites to see if low & slow is the way to go, or if I should plan on a higher temp.

If I do use the cinnamon and nutmeg, I'll add it after the apples have fermented out so I can go ahead and bottle once it extracts enough flavor. My plan is to leave a cinnamon stick whole, but smash one whole nutmeg with a hammer. I'll put both of them in a cheesecloth, so I can remove them easily in case I can't bottle immediately when it's ready.

Also, I've changed my mash rests to 110°F for 30 minutes and 152°F for 75 minutes. The 110°F is near the high end of the beta-glucanase range, because my mashes tend to lose temp a bit during the beginning of the mash. When I add the infusion to get up to the saccharification rest, I'll be pushing the limit of what my 10 gallon mash tun can hold. That should be fun.

Sure, look around on the cooking websites to caramelize those apples. They tend to dry out in the oven, IMO. You can't use any butter or oil, so that changes things a bit too. I'd say the sugar (syrup) should be able to bring the temps up to around 240-260 for a good caramelization. Slow is good and keep an eye on the temp. Add a little water before it gets too hot/dark, you can't go back. It's like making candi syrup. A little DAP and Ca(OH)2 (pickling lime) for keeping the pH up for the melanoiden to develop. Like @SnickASaurusRex's Candi Syrup.

I'd mash the beginning on that batch in a (smaller) kettle for the beta-glucanase and protein rests. You were going to do a protein rest originally, or have you decided against it? It's easier that way to do a step mash with carefully applied direct heat and good stirring. Then heat it up to sacc rest temps (stir to prevent cooking the enzymes and scorching the mash) and dump the whole mash into a preheated cooler mashtun, that has some boiling hot water in it to even out the temp loss from the transfer. Finish it there, and lauter.

A whole nutmeg sounds way too much! Have you tried that amount before?

 

[signpost]

The kettle sounds like a good idea. The only problem is that my kettle that is big enough won't fit on the stove (under the microwave). It is supposed to be up into the 30s tomorrow though, so maybe that could work out. I'll just have to keep a closer eye on it, if I go that route.

 

[signpost]

Oh yeah, I meant to post this.

Yeah, I'm calling it "Oat No!"

 

[signpost]

Oat No! was definitely the right name for this beer.

The biggest fiasco of my brewing tenure. The single worst stuck sparge I've ever dealt with. I haven't had a lot, but I've had a few stinkers. This beat them all. I had one recently when I brewed up a sour blonde with a few lbs. of raw Spelt. But with that one, I didn't do a beta-glucanase rest. I didn't add any rice hulls. I wasn't prepared for the mess I was dealing with. With this batch, I was prepared. So I thought.

I did the beta-glucanase rest. I used 1.5 lbs. of rice hulls, more than any recommendation I had seen online.

And still, the worst stuck sparge I've seen. The thing that made it worse than others was the sheer volume of the mash and the stakes of a high gravity wort. I didn't want to waste anything, but at the same time I had to figure out how in the hell I'd get anything out of the mash. Luckily, I still have my old 'grain bag' around from when I used to do BIAB. I regularly use it as a hop bag these days.

It was messy. The 'sparge' took several hours. The boil was extremely long in order to boil off the extra volume of wort I decided to pull after a lower than hoped 1st runnings gravity reading.

In the end, I have approximately 4.75 gallons of 1.093 wort. And I pitched the slurry from a previous batch of an English Best Bitter that used Wyeast 1882-PC Thames Valley Ale II.

I am frustrated. I am worn out. And I'm glad I did it all.

As difficult as the process was, I think I ended up damn close to what I was aiming for.

As happy as I am, anybody else out there that is considering something as foolish as what I did should heed this warning. It will be a mess. The mash will not let go of your wort easily. Prepare yourself for a beer built on sweat and perseverance.

:rockin:

 

[IslandLizard]

I'm sorry to hear you ran into such a mess. That's only with 30% of oats! I'm sure it was a long day.

Glad you still had the BIAB bag. I'll remember that for when I'm brewing this.

I've had occasional slow lautering issues with high wheat content (60%) but it sounds like this one is taking the top prize. I may try a cereal mash with the oats, incorporating both a beta-glucanase and protein rest, and hopefully it gets less sticky. Maybe use a mixer. Stirring is supposed to loosen up the mash, beta-glucan being a non-Newtonian fluid (Palmer, 145).

So you only missed 5 points on your OG, in a somewhat smaller volume. That's still pretty good. How did the wort taste?

 

[signpost]

It tasted pretty good. And my volume was actually just a little higher than intended. The recipe was for a 4.5 gallon batch. I guess I might not have mentioned that before. I had been boiling for so long, that I decided I was close enough to my target OG to add the one late addition of hops and get on with finishing up the beer. If I hit my target FG, it'll still be 9.6 ABV. That's not far off from what was intended.

Anyway, I have airlock activity less than 12 hours after pitching yeast. It's in a pretty chilly basement right now, so I may need to bring it up to the main floor tomorrow or Friday to help it keep fermenting.

 

[signpost]

I pitched yeast at about 54°F (chilling wort in the winter is so easy). Right now the airlock is cranking and it's at 63°F. This is a great example of how much heat fermentation can produce. As soon as I notice the temp start dropping again, I'll be bringing it up out of the cold basement into real livable temps on the main floor.

I can't decide if I want to add a little sugar to keep it fermenting out dry or not. I may have to take a gravity reading in the next day or so and see how that's going. As much as the oats are supposed to fill out the body, I don't want it to end up too sweet. Luckily, hydrometer readings are super easy to take in a bucket.

Also the almost 2 gallons of headspace in the bucket is serving me well in not needing to do a blow off tube.

 

[JKaranka]

I can't decide if I want to add a little sugar to keep it fermenting out dry or not. I may have to take a gravity reading in the next day or so and see how that's going. As much as the oats are supposed to fill out the body, I don't want it to end up too sweet.

The beta-glucans should add body without adding sweetness. Sweetness can come from less fermentable sugars left over in beer (complex sugars, lactose, etc.), but the beta-glucans in oats should not be sweet. At least my breakfast porridge is thick as hell but has no sweetness whatsoever.

 

[signpost]

https://youtu.be/SF-mKMwxhdI

The airlock is still going crazy. Up to 64°F in a chilly basement. All's well so far.

 

[signpost]

It cooled down to 61°F overnight, and the krausen has fallen for the most part. So, I just moved it upstairs to warm it up and keep it fermenting out. I'll probably take a gravity reading either tonight or tomorrow morning to see how it's doing.

Also, the reason I'm not sure about adding sugar to dry it out is because I did a mash out in an attempt to thin out the mash and unstick the sparge, so I thought it might not be quite as fermentable as I wanted. So it's unfermentable sugars that I worried about, not the beta-glucans. Regardless, I'm just planning to monitor the gravity before making any decisions on adding sugar.

 

[signpost]

The temp has evened out to about 65°F since moving it this morning. That's right in the middle of the suggested range for the 1882 Thames Valley II yeast I'm using.

 

[JKaranka]

I think you are worrying too much Give it a week.

 

[signpost]

More excited than worried. 😄

Since brew day was finished, everything has gone perfectly. My frequent posts are as much for my own records as they are for looking for help or keeping the HBT community informed.

 

[CHansen6]

Keep us posted. I've very interested in making an oat wine. I've been thinking about going 50:50 Marris Otter and malted oats as the base, with some crystal and toasted oats for aroma and complexity.

 

[signpost]

It's sitting at 1.028 at the moment. I was hoping to get it down to about 1.020, so I might add some sugar to try to dry it out a little more. I'll think about it and wait until tonight to make a decision.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Keep us posted. I've been wanting to do an oatwine for a long long time but other stuff keeps getting in the way (I'm looking at you Belgian Dark Strong Ale, perfection escapes me still).

Did you try rousing up the yeast with a sanitized spoon? Sneaky little English yeast like to poop out and take a nap before they finish their work. Probably a little gentle rousing while adding a little invert syrup/honey should kick it all up and running again, I've had a couple beers that didn't drop appreciably in gravity but the sugar addition made it go from sticky sweet to chewy/malty. Thankfully something this big will probably support 1.028 final gravity anyway, if its too thick carbonate it a bit higher and it will give it a lighter body without drastic measures.