Nothing that can kill you can grow in your beer...

[NordeastBrewer77]

it wasn't Gino's in Chi-town :rockin:

oh man, i so miss that place. i grew up in the north burbs about 15 minutes from the Libertyville Gino's. few things in life are better than a Gino's pie, man, very few things. i think i'll have to settle for a distant second (or third, Malnati's is pretty good, too) and get a DaVanni's pie tomorrow. it's not bad, but as i tell my wife who's a life long Mpls resident, the 'za here just doesn't compare to what i grew up on.




disclaimer: if any of you Chicagoland resident's wanna come to Minnie for a weekend, bring a Gino's pie and i'll let ya crash in my spare bedroom and supply you with some nice local brew like Flat Earth for the effort.

 

[homebrewdad]

oh man, i so miss that place. i grew up in the north burbs about 15 minutes from the Libertyville Gino's. few things in life are better than a Gino's pie, man, very few things. i think i'll have to settle for a distant second (or third, Malnati's is pretty good, too) and get a DaVanni's pie tomorrow. it's not bad, but as i tell my wife who's a life long Mpls resident, the 'za here just doesn't compare to what i grew up on.




disclaimer: if any of you Chicagoland resident's wanna come to Minnie for a weekend, bring a Gino's pie and i'll let ya crash in my spare bedroom and supply you with some nice local brew like Flat Earth for the effort.

And here, I thought that my love for Gino's was somehow a bad, touristy thing.

 

[RJS]

Even if it was the beer, I'd drink it to train my stomach to be an unstoppable beer container, capable of digesting any homebrew. Never stop training your beer drinking skills. The stomach should be a beer warrior.

 

[pd230soi]

I vote the food posioning. I had FP once so bad I was actually laughing as I vomited and poured out the other end. It was just unreal. Never ever seen anything like it. it took about 6-8 hours to hit me.

Some Drs claim they can almost tell you what time of bug it was based on how long it took for it to grab you. But a violent onset (with no other warning sings) sounds like FP.

I have lived or traveled in many, many parts of the world and nothing comes on as fast as food posioning. Often going away just as quick.

I would do a careful controlled experiment. With no one else in the house, eat some simple bland safe food and have a couple of your beers. Leave the TV in the bathroom, have a good supply of TP, see what happens.

 

[mtk6006]

Alcohols at that level would be hardly able to kill anything. We are not talking about the first run off from moonshine here. I would agree if we were talking rocketfuel but beer?

I posted on public forum sure but everytime i dissagree with someone the fireworks begin wrong or not dont belittle me i dont do that to yall. Theres alot of things i can make yall feel two inches tall about but i dont and i wont.


I bet it wasnt the pizza but the hands that handled the pizza. I have been at fast food places and watched them handle a broom then touch my food without washing hands. I paid and then threw food in the trash Im not eating it if it aint clean. Im not starting a stink either they end up spitting on your food in future

How can you justify drinking a beer that is bad just b/c its beer? I have thrown em out before b/c it smelled like detergent. And if you go back and read what i said you will see i wrote "Im sorry but i couldnt drink something that looked like that. I know what your thinking how you think it looks at the micro brew? Yeah i know i try not to think about it Is it really supposed to look like that? and why?" Now why is everybody trying to convince me i said something else? Can beer make you sick YES! Get over that one. Everytime i post i hear the same lines.

Bottom line im not drinking a beer that looks or smells like it has been through a trolls butt regardless if its supposed to look like that or not. Hey maybe im missing out maybe im not. Atleast people dont have to give me a hard time b/c i wont drink it. Thats like me trying to convice you to eat meat if your a vegetarian and yes i eat meat. AND NO im not close minded i will try anything once but its pretty damn hard to drink something that looks that rough! Hey i tried kimchi too but i dont like it so i wont eat it again. They asked if it could be the beer and sure it could and it could have been the drinking water or even anything like others mentioned.

One thing that doesn bother me is people here are brewing same beer and sometimes its 50/50 on smell or looks. Which one is good and which one isnt? I hear all kinds of stuff! What am i supposed to think? Yall aint exactly making it easy here if im confused imagine the others new to this too. As of right now im so damned confused i dunno to even drink the brew im brewing now

 

[Revvy]

@ revvy. You going to assure me that nothing pathogenic can grow in beer? Without a doubt your going to PROMISE me? Im going to start brewing some "fancier" brews soon but if they put me on the toliet with the squirts for days. Well thats gonna suck! I need to know why pathogens wont grow on beer. Then i might feel more comfortable about drinking something that looks like alien slime

Yeah I can promise you that...If you read the threads I posted earlier, you will see all manner of information from multiple sources through history including Dr. Charles Bamforth stating REPEATEDLY that Nothing Pathogenic Can Exist in Beer, Cider, Wine Mead. And we give ALL THE REASONS WHY.....

I would think, HE would be good enough to believe, and there's plenty of stuff in those threads by him to back it up....

Charles W. Bamforth
Anheuser-Busch Endowed Professor of Malting and Brewing Sciences
[email protected]
(530)752-9476
Home Page

Malting and brewing; enzymology of malt and wort production
Degree

Ph. D. University of Hull, 1977

D. Sc. University of Hull, 1993
Research

Dr. Bamforth specializes in the science of malting and brewing. His current research program focuses primarily on the wholesomeness of beer, including studies on the psychophysics of beer perception, on polyphenols and on the residues from non-starchy polysaccharide digestion that constitute soluble fiber and potential prebiotics in beer. Research in the laboratory also embraces the enzymology of the brewing process, foam stability, preventing oxidation in wort and beer and alternative paradigms for beer production.

Selected Publications

Bamforth, C., editor. 2006. Brewing: New Technologies. Woodhead Publishing

Bamforth, C. 2008. Grape versus Grain. Cambridge University Press

Bamforth, C.W., editor. 2008. Beer: A Quality Perspective. Handbook of Alcoholic beverages series, Elsevier.

Bamforth, C.W. 2009. Beer: Tap into the Art and Science of Brewing, Third Edition. Oxford University Press
Bamforth, C.W. 2010. Beer is Proof God Loves Us. FT Press

Awards and Honors

Award of Distinction, American Society of Brewing Chemists, 2011

Cambridge Prize, Institute of Brewing, 1984

Extension of Knowledge Activities

FST 3 - Introduction to Beer and Brewing

FST 102A - Malting and Brewing Science

FST 102B - Practical Malting and Brewing

Short courses on brewing provided through the University of California Extension

International Brewing Courses in China, India, South Africa, United Kingdom and Australia

Isn't it good enough that the smartest guy on the planet about brewing would say so?

Why is it that you're so closed minded to the facts that we CONSTANTLY present to you whenever you challenge what we have to say about just about everything you freak out about. You've brewed 2 batches, probably been only reading (if anything) about brewing for a few weeks, Most of us have been doing this for years- Many of us writes books, and articles, do podcasts and all manner of stuff having to do with homebrewing, we KNOW what the heck we're talking.

 

[mtk6006]

Revvy i could kiss your a$$ and call it icecream but that doesnt make it so. I dont even know yall and you yall dont know me either. You bet im going to question things. Why wouldnt i? Now i will say this just b/c someone writes a book dont make it right. Throw someone on tv too they must be right? You dont know how many people i know are misinformed on certain subjects even fire marshall! When a whole 5 people telling me one thing and the other 50000 saying something else what am i supposed to think?

 

[SGFBeerBuzz]

Next yes i am afraid of 4 things germs! spiders! and the dentist! heights!

I just had an image in my brain of an 8-legged dentist with poor sanitation practices whose office is in a skyscraper.

Mtk, you're right, of course. It isn't right to give so much guff to you for your statements. It's just that when someone sees misinformation on the forum, even when it's unintentional, we take it as our mission to correct it.

While I did not respond to your post, I must admit your initial post made me cringe a bit because I knew better.

Now, for the subject at hand: the thread seems to stick to only causes from that day, but food poisoning can take a few days to develop, too. From a few minutes to a few days, the cause may not be obvious.

My point is that the only reason to avoid a food or beverage after a bout like this (which i've experienced) is because your mind is making the association. It's a defense mechanism, to be sure, but it may not be the most accurate one.

I would have ditched the pizza, too. I'd also think through the past couple of days and think about what else may have been a culprit. Either way, there's no way to be sure of the cause.

 

[Revvy]

Revvy i could kiss your a$$ and call it icecream but that doesnt make it so. I dont even know yall and you yall dont know me either. You bet im going to question things. Why wouldnt i? Now i will say this just b/c someone writes a book dont make it right. Throw someone on tv too they must be right? You dont know how many people i know are misinformed on certain subjects even fire marshall! When a whole 5 people telling me one thing and the other 50000 saying something else what am i supposed to think?

Well if you believe 5,000 ignorant idiots over one credentialled experts or a handful of folks who maybe know more about this subject than the 5,000, that's your problem, not mine. Or any of us.....The information is there, 10 fold whether you choose to accept it or dismiss it is a matter of your choice and ignorance not ours. You've already been proven wrong on other things, like Rhino Farts, and believed it (finally). It's all up to you....Call Charles Bamforth, his phone number and email is on the previous post. Ask him.

I don't give a care if you choose ti believe it or not, I only care misinformation is not left unchallenged on this forum, because long after this thread is locked or dies, someone will come along and look at it, and we want to make sure that whether you believe the facts or not, the folks who really want to know the truth, don't get crappy info.....

 

[brushvalleybrewer]

If you have trouble believing any of the arguments you have heard so far, you have just cause. It does not mean you are right, it just means there are valid reasons for you to question what you have heard.

The primary problem with this line of thought is that you are trying to prove a negative. That is not possible. Some people call this a "Black Swan" problem. It goes like this, "I have never seen anything but white swans, therefore there are no black ones." The first part of the statement is true, the second is in doubt, because the speaker has probably not seen every swan.

In this case, what we are saying is, "I have never seen any pathogen grow in beer, therefore there are no pathogens that can grow in beer."

That said, while there are black swans (nobody of European descent knew about them until they discovered Australia), we have been documenting the manufacture of beer for around three millennia and have yet to find a pathogen that grows in it. I think we're probably on fairly solid footing.

In the OPs specific case, if we assume that his beer was the black swan, we would have to assume that others would have found the pathogen, as well, since beers are not manufactured one-at-a-time. That would result in a documented case. Since that didn't happen, I have to assume it wasn't the beer.

 

[Bru]

Im not sure if I trust Charles. What you don't see in that photo is his long greasy ponytail

 

[Cambone]

This is getting ridiculous. This HAS to be a troll. Only trolls are so close-minded, ignorant, and distrusting of science.

mtk, you are getting torn apart because this is the internet (a corner of the internet inhabited by mostly sane people mind you) and you are making ignorant remarks. ALOT of people here posted that it was not your beer and suggested that your illness was beyond a shadow of doubt due to something else. And everyone was nice. But you continue to ignore facts, and refuse to listen to others. And when you make remarks that fly in the face of science, history, and brewing; people around here are going to irritated. So if you can't handle the heat, leave. Its just the internet after all, and if you can't take a verbal lashing you have no place here.

 

[mtk6006]

YO! OP i hope ya feel better today! Make a mad score playing poker last night? They didnt steal all your money did they?

 

[mtk6006]

I aint no troll!!!! and im not closed minded! last time im saying it! So your saying if i question something im a troll? You have to be joking right? I guess im ignorant too and arrogant and dumb! What else you wanna add to the list? I dont think i have ever felt not welcome more in my life!

 

[HSB]

In October of 2011, a collection of experts from the International Association for Food Protection wrote an article based upon their experiments titled "Growth and Survival of Foodborne Pathogens in Beer". This is the abstract of that paper:

"This work aimed to assess the growth and survival of four foodborne pathogens (Escherichia coli O157:H7, Salmonella Typhimurium, Listeria monocytogenes, and Staphylococcus aureus) in beer. The effects of ethanol, pH, and storage temperature were investigated for the gram-negative pathogens (E. coli O157:H7 and Salmonella Typhimurium), whereas the presence of hops ensured that the gram-positive pathogens (L. monocytogenes and S. aureus) were rapidly inactivated in alcohol-free beer. The pathogens E. coli O157:H7 and Salmonella Typhimurium could not grow in the mid-strength or full-strength beers, although they could survive for more than 30 days in the mid-strength beer when held at 4°C. These pathogens grew rapidly in the alcohol-free beer; however, growth was prevented when the pH of the alcohol-free beer was lowered from the "as received" value of 4.3 to 4.0. Pathogen survival in all beers was prolonged at lowered storage temperatures."

Before anyone reads that and says "WAIT!!! AMBIGUITY!!": Mid-strength beer is defined (per the article) as 2.7% and full strength is 5%. These folks were trying to grow pathogens in beer (meaning they set it to optimum growing conditions with regard to temp, etc). Even then, they could not achieve growth. Only survival of the initial contamination when the temperature was lowered (they explain why in the body of the article).

Summary: "There appears to be no danger of the transmission of pathogens in bottled fullstrength beer; however, as the inactivation rate is slowed at low temperatures (40C), a small risk of pathogen transmission remains with draught beer dispense via crosscontamination. Furthermore, due attention must be paid in the production of alcohol-free beer, as it can support the growth of pathogens, especially at slightly elevated pH levels. Therefore, pasteurization and pH values should be closely monitored, and the production of unpasteurized alcohol-free beer is not risk free."

So, if you need a recent scientific study to confirm this; unless you are creating unpasteurized near-beer...you did not get sick from your beer.

(Thank you Johns Hopkins, and the wealth of information your library holds...)

 

[mtk6006]

In October of 2011, a collection of experts from the International Association for Food Protection wrote an article based upon their experiments titled "Growth and Survival of Foodborne Pathogens in Beer". This is the abstract of that paper:

"This work aimed to assess the growth and survival of four foodborne pathogens (Escherichia coli O157:H7, Salmonella Typhimurium, Listeria monocytogenes, and Staphylococcus aureus) in beer. The effects of ethanol, pH, and storage temperature were investigated for the gram-negative pathogens (E. coli O157:H7 and Salmonella Typhimurium), whereas the presence of hops ensured that the gram-positive pathogens (L. monocytogenes and S. aureus) were rapidly inactivated in alcohol-free beer. The pathogens E. coli O157:H7 and Salmonella Typhimurium could not grow in the mid-strength or full-strength beers, although they could survive for more than 30 days in the mid-strength beer when held at 4°C. These pathogens grew rapidly in the alcohol-free beer; however, growth was prevented when the pH of the alcohol-free beer was lowered from the "as received" value of 4.3 to 4.0. Pathogen survival in all beers was prolonged at lowered storage temperatures."

Before anyone reads that and says "WAIT!!! AMBIGUITY!!": Mid-strength beer is defined (per the article) as 2.7% and full strength is 5%. These folks were trying to grow pathogens in beer (meaning they set it to optimum growing conditions with regard to temp, etc). Even then, they could not achieve growth. Only survival of the initial contamination when the temperature was lowered (they explain why in the body of the article).

Summary: "There appears to be no danger of the transmission of pathogens in bottled fullstrength beer; however, as the inactivation rate is slowed at low temperatures (40C), a small risk of pathogen transmission remains with draught beer dispense via crosscontamination. Furthermore, due attention must be paid in the production of alcohol-free beer, as it can support the growth of pathogens, especially at slightly elevated pH levels. Therefore, pasteurization and pH values should be closely monitored, and the production of unpasteurized alcohol-free beer is not risk free."

So, if you need a recent scientific study to confirm this; unless you are creating unpasteurized near-beer...you did not get sick from your beer.

(Thank you Johns Hopkins, and the wealth of information your library holds...)

Thank you! This is what im talking about ANSWERS! not "because i said so line"

 

[jump_xiii]

This is getting ridiculous. This HAS to be a troll. Only trolls are so close-minded, ignorant, and distrusting of science.

mtk, you are getting torn apart because this is the internet (a corner of the internet inhabited by mostly sane people mind you) and you are making ignorant remarks. ALOT of people here posted that it was not your beer and suggested that your illness was beyond a shadow of doubt due to something else. And everyone was nice. But you continue to ignore facts, and refuse to listen to others. And when you make remarks that fly in the face of science, history, and brewing; people around here are going to irritated. So if you can't handle the heat, leave. Its just the internet after all, and if you can't take a verbal lashing you have no place here.

Just for the record, it was me (jump_xiii) that got sick, not mtk6006... just sayin'

 

[mtk6006]

Just for the record, it was me (jump_xiii) that got sick, not mtk6006... just sayin'

See thats what i mean NOBODY reads the whole post. They read half of it assume something and run with thoughts.

 

[jump_xiii]

YO! OP i hope ya feel better today! Make a mad score playing poker last night? They didnt steal all your money did they?

Well, I drank 2 pints of my beer (the one in question) and no ill effects. :rockin:

But I also lost out in the game. We play small stakes, so I lost the equivalent of about $15.

All in all $15, 2 homebrews and the guy who's house we were at cooked dinner. Cheap night talkin sh*t with my friends. One of those guys is a home brewer, I told him the story and offered him a taste... He didn't hesitate to try it!

 

[mtk6006]

COOL BEANS! No more pizza 15 aint too bad like ya said atleast ya got a meal out of it and hang with buds and you cant get a good meal and beer for 15 bucks anyway. SOunds like ya had good time! :rockin: and glad to hear it wasnt the beer :rockin:

 

[Revvy]

Thank you! This is what im talking about ANSWERS! not "because i said so line"

DUDE, I GAVE YOU TWO LINKS OF THIS INFORMATION IN MY FIRST POST IN HERE...THOSE THREADS ARE FULL OF JUST THOSE THINGS. Did you even bother to look?

Every time you bring up some BS like this, I GIVE YOU SOURCES, do you EVER bother to look?

THESE.

Dangers of Homebrewing

And some more info here

Did you bother to look???? It's full of just those citations. I don't just "say so" unless I can back it up with FACTS. There are articles from medical journals, interviews with Bamforth, all that ****, right there.

 

[jump_xiii]

glad to hear it wasnt the beer :rockin:

Well as stated before I had previously had 8-10 bottles of that same beer and it was fine. So I was pretty sure it wasnt "the beer" but maybe "that bottle of beer". Anyway. First couple of mouthfuls were hard to swallow, something psychological, but i just manned up and got on with the business of drinking it!

 

[mappler]

Even if it was the beer, I'd drink it to train my stomach to be an unstoppable beer container, capable of digesting any homebrew. Never stop training your beer drinking skills. The stomach should be a beer warrior.

I like this....I may print this up and post it on my kegerator.

 

[DannyD]

DUDE, I GAVE YOU TWO LINKS OF THIS INFORMATION IN MY FIRST POST IN HERE...THOSE THREADS ARE FULL OF JUST THOSE THINGS. Did you even bother to look?

Every time you bring up some BS like this, I GIVE YOU SOURCES, do you EVER bother to look?

THESE.

Dangers of Homebrewing

And some more info here

Did you bother to look???? It's full of just those citations. I don't just "say so" unless I can back it up with FACTS. There are articles from medical journals, interviews with Bamforth, all that ****, right there.

Hahahaaaaa...... any who here is another one

 

[Bobby_M]

I aint no troll!!!! and im not closed minded! last time im saying it! So your saying if i question something im a troll? You have to be joking right? I guess im ignorant too and arrogant and dumb! What else you wanna add to the list? I dont think i have ever felt not welcome more in my life!

The real issue here is that you have a personality type (at least one that comes across via your posts) that does not fit the requirements of an internet discussion forum. I'm sure you're a nice guy in real life or I'd give you the benefit of the doubt at least, but it doesn't work through text.

My dad is exactly like this but then again, he's almost 60 and didn't grow up learning how to dodge internet indifference and borderline hostility.

You've got to learn how to navigate through the irony, sarcasm, and disagreement and not get butt-hurt.

 

[Revvy]

Hahahaaaaa...... any who here is another one

Yeah, but we know there's an even greater threat in our beer, the dreaded dihydrogen monoxide.

 

[mtk6006]

The real issue here is that you have a personality type (at least one that comes across via your posts) that does not fit the requirements of an internet discussion forum. I'm sure you're a nice guy in real life or I'd give you the benefit of the doubt at least, but it doesn't work through text.

My dad is exactly like this but then again, he's almost 60 and didn't grow up learning how to dodge internet indifference and borderline hostility.

You've got to learn how to navigate through the irony, sarcasm, and disagreement and not get butt-hurt.

I know. Im not going to argue that one bit b/c thats how i am....Yes i do need to work on that for sure but it doesnt help when people come off so abrasive.

 

[sudsmcgee]

I know. Im not going to argue that one bit b/c thats how i am....Yes i do need to work on that for sure but it doesnt help when people come off so abrasive.

Welcome to the internet.

 

[homebrewdad]

DUDE, I GAVE YOU TWO LINKS OF THIS INFORMATION IN MY FIRST POST IN HERE...THOSE THREADS ARE FULL OF JUST THOSE THINGS. Did you even bother to look?...

Facts that don't fit one's preconceived notions are likely to be ignored... especially if said facts require even the slightest bit of effort to obtain.

 

[Bobby_M]

I know. Im not going to argue that one bit b/c thats how i am....Yes i do need to work on that for sure but it doesnt help when people come off so abrasive.

The discussion forum tones vary from mildly abrasive to downright caustic depending on what the hobby is and what particular forum you're talking about. Notice I didn't start the range at anymore welcoming than mildly abrasive. You've got to thicken your skin to at least cope with that level and keep working on it so that you can enjoy more boards.

This is the environment so you either adapt or leave and miss out on the potential benefits. We're talking about making alcohol here... which inevitably gets consumed before during and after participating in the forum. Use that as a guide to understanding some posts.