No fruity, tropical aromas or taste in my beers

[latProd]

Hi all and thank you for reading
I have been brewing for a while and though I am a pretty casual brewer I can usually create a decent beer when I try.
I recently moved to Poland, on a farm, and I am using water from a private well, so lots of minerals, probably pretty soft and no chemicals. (naturally filtered apparently)
I have brewed two beers so far using the grainfather, and making sure to add bittering hops @ 60 mins to avoid too much bitterness, and lots of hops on 15 and 5 mins. (to the extent it pretty much clogs my hop filter).
On my last beer i used 50g cascade at 15 mins, 50g citra at 5 min (3,5 oz all together) and i dry hopped with 100 grams of citra (again 3,5 oz) and i had a small tasting now after a week in the bottle just as the carbonation is starting to get going. I just couldnt believe it, it had such a small, pathetic amount of aroma and basically just a little too much bitterness.
I used safale 05 and fermented for two weeks at 18 degrees celsius (64-65 fahrenheit). I like to think i did everything right.
Back in Norway, I always got really fruity and lovely IPAs with this type of hop regiment and a balanced bitterness.
I cannot for the life of me figure out what is going wrong here.
I am getting married i 3 months and the plan was to brew some lovely hoppy pale ale with low bitterness but now I'm unsure how to achieve this.
could the water here prevent me from getting the hop flavor i want?
Any suggestions would be highly appreciated.
Thank you.

TLR: The hops aint making my beers fruity and lovely.

 

[beernutz]

Is it possible to buy RO water where you are and brew with it, preferably after treating it, instead of the well water?

My guess would be water too if you are using the same procedures and ingredients you previously used and getting different results.

 

[chickypad]

My guess would be water too if you are using the same procedures and ingredients you previously used and getting different results.

Agreed, sounds like a water problem until proven otherwise. I think you meant to say OP that your water is probably pretty hard from the well, right?

 

[latProd]

Is it possible to buy RO water where you are and brew with it, preferably after treating it, instead of the well water?

My guess would be water too if you are using the same procedures and ingredients you previously used and getting different results.

Hi and thanks for the reply. I have no experience with RO water, and would be hard pressed to figure out what it is and how to get it in Poland, seeing as my Polish is terrible so far Reverse Osmosis right?
I can try. But when u say "treating it", the question is, how, and with what?
I am having clear suspicions about the water as well :/

 

[latProd]

Agreed, sounds like a water problem until proven otherwise. I think you meant to say OP that your water is probably pretty hard from the well, right?

Hmm. I don't really know to be honest, I can only go by what it feels like compared to Norway. (as u have probably guessed by now, I am no water expert) but it feels more mineraly and "slimy" in lack of a better word, than the rather crisp norwegian water. After doing some reading, I think you are right, it is hard water indeed. There is a lot of mineral residue in the water boilers for instance.
EDIT: if it is any help, the bitterness is quite prounounced in the beer, so that part of the hops are definately coming through... which, ironically, is not what im after :/

 

[chickypad]

I'm far from a water expert too but I think this is sounding like a water issue. Too much sulfate could accentuate bitterness. Also you might have a lot more alkalinity than your previous water source, raising the pH. To quote Martin from the Bru'n water site "High wort and beer pH can create 'dull' flavors, harsh bitterness, and darker beer color."

If you can find an RO water source the beer primer linked below has instructions for simple additions to get you in the ballpark.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460

 

[tgolanos]

Where in Poland are you? Generally, water in the northern half of the country is softer but harder in the southern half.

If you can get a copy of a water report from your local Gmina or Voivodship, I can have a look at it - I speak decent Polish. Maybe it can help you diagnose what your issue is and how to treat your water.

 

[artichoke]

The grainfather uses a counterflow chiller which means the late addition hops are sitting in near boiling wort for quite a while as you transfer to the fermenter. This means all those wonderful hop oils are boiling away.

I would suggest moving all of the late additions to the chilling stage. That should help.

- Artichoke

 

[latProd]

I'm far from a water expert too but I think this is sounding like a water issue. Too much sulfate could accentuate bitterness. Also you might have a lot more alkalinity than your previous water source, raising the pH. To quote Martin from the Bru'n water site "High wort and beer pH can create 'dull' flavors, harsh bitterness, and darker beer color."

If you can find an RO water source the beer primer linked below has instructions for simple additions to get you in the ballpark.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460

Thanks a lot, I will definately look into the RO water thing, and do an experimental batch.

 

[latProd]

Where in Poland are you? Generally, water in the northern half of the country is softer but harder in the southern half.

If you can get a copy of a water report from your local Gmina or Voivodship, I can have a look at it - I speak decent Polish. Maybe it can help you diagnose what your issue is and how to treat your water.

Hehe, I'm impressed I'm slightly north of Poznan so north west.
Trouble is, since it's a private water source, I am not sure a water report exists. I guess I would have to hire someone to come and analyze it.. don't even know if this is possible. But if such a report exists that is a very kind offer and I appreciate it alot

 

[latProd]

The grainfather uses a counterflow chiller which means the late addition hops are sitting in near boiling wort for quite a while as you transfer to the fermenter. This means all those wonderful hop oils are boiling away.

I would suggest moving all of the late additions to the chilling stage. That should help.

- Artichoke

Yeah you are right about that actually, never thought about it. Ever since I started using the GF I have had to up the hops to get similar results to my older BIAB system. When you say the chilling stage, how do I go about this? Due to the counterflow chiller the contents of the GF remains at near 80 degrees celsius when I am done pumping it into the fermenter. At what time do you suggest I add them?

 

[hlmbrwng]

Yeah you are right about that actually, never thought about it. Ever since I started using the GF I have had to up the hops to get similar results to my older BIAB system. When you say the chilling stage, how do I go about this? Due to the counterflow chiller the contents of the GF remains at near 80 degrees celsius when I am done pumping it into the fermenter. At what time do you suggest I add them?

When I add hops at "flame out", I don't actually add them right away. I have been chilling the wort somewhere between 160-170 and holding it for about ten minutes. I don't know how big of a difference there is, but I am banking on their being less alpha acid isomerization and more hop flavor. Using Beersmith for calculations, it doesn't matter if you add flame out hops at 0 minutes at boiling temperature or if you add them after the temperature drops a bit. Neither will affect the calculated IBU, but this is probably not what really happens.

 

[artichoke]

Sorry I wasn't very clear. By chilling stage I meant at tbe end of the boil and right after you run hot wort through the chiller to sanitize it so the temperature has a chance to drop a bit. Ideally you would do what the pevious poster suggests; chill wort to around 170f, add your hops and then let them steep for 30 mins or so before you transfer the wort to the fermenter. The idea being that those desirable aromatic hop compound don't boil away at lower temperatures and stay in the wort.

- Artichoke

 

[latProd]

Thanks to both of you for clarifying, no idea why I didn't think about that. I will definately try to do that. I've tried steeping like this before, although that was a recipe where there was no boiling of hops at all, and it came out flat and uninteresting. I'll just do regular additions, and then add loads of hops like you described and see if that works

 

[IndyBlueprints]

Hehe, I'm impressed I'm slightly north of Poznan so north west.
Trouble is, since it's a private water source, I am not sure a water report exists. I guess I would have to hire someone to come and analyze it.. don't even know if this is possible. But if such a report exists that is a very kind offer and I appreciate it alot

You could send a sample of your water to the states to be tested:

https://www.wardlab.com/BrewersKitOrder.php

That's what I did, and found out my municipal water supply was NO GOOD for beermaking.

 

[ba-brewer]

Not sure how well this would work, but the brewers friend advanced water calculator has an option to use the results from an aquarium water test kit like this.
https://www.amazon.com/API-TEST-Freshwater-Aquarium-Water/dp/B003SNCHMA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1502140531&sr=8-1&keywords=GH+%26+KH+TEST+KIT

 

[latProd]

You could send a sample of your water to the states to be tested:

https://www.wardlab.com/BrewersKitOrder.php

That's what I did, and found out my municipal water supply was NO GOOD for beermaking.

holy, didnt know about this. Now it's getting serious I will email them to check if its possible, thanks

 

[latProd]

Not sure how well this would work, but the brewers friend advanced water calculator has an option to use the results from an aquarium water test kit like this.
https://www.amazon.com/API-TEST-Freshwater-Aquarium-Water/dp/B003SNCHMA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1502140531&sr=8-1&keywords=GH+%26+KH+TEST+KIT

Man you guys are stocked with info. Maybe they sell something like this here in Poland as well. At least it could give me a clue

 

[latProd]

Is it possible to buy RO water where you are and brew with it, preferably after treating it, instead of the well water?

My guess would be water too if you are using the same procedures and ingredients you previously used and getting different results.

Hey again. I have looked into the RO water thing, tho i know very little about it.
I found this on some amazon like site here in poland.

https://allegro.pl/listing?string= ...ase-relevance-floki-5-nga-honest-uni-1-3-0803

Some kind of RO5 and RO6 kits or something, is this something that could work?

 

[beernutz]

Hey again. I have looked into the RO water thing, tho i know very little about it.
I found this on some amazon like site here in poland.

https://allegro.pl/listing?string= ...ase-relevance-floki-5-nga-honest-uni-1-3-0803

Some kind of RO5 and RO6 kits or something, is this something that could work?

Those appear to be RO water kits but I don't understand Polish. An alternative to buying an RO kit might be to buy distilled water from a grocery store. We can buy 1 and 5 gallon jugs of distilled here for very little. Both RO and distilled water have very little if any mineralization though they get that way via different pathways.

You would have to add back the appropriate minerals if brewing all grain as described by a brewing water calculator if using RO or distilled. I like this calculator because of its simplicity but there are many more available on the net. https://www.brewersfriend.com/water-chemistry/
It is not that diffucult a process to adjust RO or distilled water if you read the supporting documentation but it has a large impact on your final product imo.

 

[latProd]

Those appear to be RO water kits but I don't understand Polish. An alternative to buying an RO kit might be to buy distilled water from a grocery store. We can buy 1 and 5 gallon jugs of distilled here for very little. Both RO and distilled water have very little if any mineralization though they get that way via different pathways.

You would have to add back the appropriate minerals if brewing all grain as described by a brewing water calculator if using RO or distilled. I like this calculator because of its simplicity but there are many more available on the net. https://www.brewersfriend.com/water-chemistry/
It is not that diffucult a process to adjust RO or distilled water if you read the supporting documentation but it has a large impact on your final product imo.

Yeah atleast there is an abundance of places that sell distilled water here, so that's good. Not too hard to come by, thankfully.So basically, distilled water contains very little minerals, so you have to add them in to achieve whatever water profile you are going for? I tried to use 100 percent dillution in the calculator and go from there, can't say i understand how to use it yet but will try to read up on it. Thanks for the info

 

[Shade]

Correct - my LHBS sells containers of brewing salts, hopefully you have access to the same. My tap water is pretty low on minerals so I treat it as if zero, and used the bru'n water spreadsheet to figure out what to add, which is 6g / one and a half teaspoons of gypsum for hop forward beers.

Also consider you can just crank the hop quantities. A thread on HBT somewhere had a guy talking about his hop ratios to get hugely hoppy beers, he reckoned 7-10g/L at flameout plus 7-20g/L dry hop. That means for a 20L batch you could be adding 140g at least at each stage.

It's a lot of hops but still is way cheaper than buying craft beer (my current batch has 420g total, 160g at flameout, 180g dry hop but works out $2.50 per 750ml bottle compared to $9-10 for 500ml commercial stuff) so I don't mind. Going big on hops certainly made a difference.

 

[latProd]

Correct - my LHBS sells containers of brewing salts, hopefully you have access to the same. My tap water is pretty low on minerals so I treat it as if zero, and used the bru'n water spreadsheet to figure out what to add, which is 6g / one and a half teaspoons of gypsum for hop forward beers.

Also consider you can just crank the hop quantities. A thread on HBT somewhere had a guy talking about his hop ratios to get hugely hoppy beers, he reckoned 7-10g/L at flameout plus 7-20g/L dry hop. That means for a 20L batch you could be adding 140g at least at each stage.

It's a lot of hops but still is way cheaper than buying craft beer (my current batch has 420g total, 160g at flameout, 180g dry hop but works out $2.50 per 750ml bottle compared to $9-10 for 500ml commercial stuff) so I don't mind. Going big on hops certainly made a difference.

Holy! Sounds like a plan I just ordered brewing salts and distilled water actually so I am gonna give that a go, as well as upping the hops thanks for the ratio suggestions, that helps!

 

[latProd]

Correct - my LHBS sells containers of brewing salts, hopefully you have access to the same. My tap water is pretty low on minerals so I treat it as if zero, and used the bru'n water spreadsheet to figure out what to add, which is 6g / one and a half teaspoons of gypsum for hop forward beers.

Also consider you can just crank the hop quantities. A thread on HBT somewhere had a guy talking about his hop ratios to get hugely hoppy beers, he reckoned 7-10g/L at flameout plus 7-20g/L dry hop. That means for a 20L batch you could be adding 140g at least at each stage.

It's a lot of hops but still is way cheaper than buying craft beer (my current batch has 420g total, 160g at flameout, 180g dry hop but works out $2.50 per 750ml bottle compared to $9-10 for 500ml commercial stuff) so I don't mind. Going big on hops certainly made a difference.

Update: Did a brew yesterday, bittered with 20g of mosaic for about 20 mins (as i know it will "boil-ish" for longer since GF has an immersion chiller), then added 150 g of hops (mosaic, simcoe) and let that steep for 10 mins, then transferred to fermenter. I used 6 gallons of distilled water, added 1tsp gypsum, 2% acidulated malt and 1tsp calcium chloride. Sparged with tap water as an experiment. (well, only had enough distilled for the mash water anyway)

I took a sample from the fermenter today and holy smokes - it smells and looks like a NEIPA. goldish yellow color, hazed and smells heavily of tropical fruits and citrus.
and that's before any dry hopping, which i plan on being another 150g.. unless this is already a hop bomb.
So... so far so good I guess

edit: forgot to mention its a 50/50 pale and pilsner grain bill, with 400 crystal (a pale ale recipe from on here).
Hope it works out this time

 

[Shade]

Nice one mate, sounds like you're on the right track!

I'd still dry hop it too - can always dial it back in future brews, but you'll lose some aroma in bottling/kegging I expect.

 

[latProd]

Nice one mate, sounds like you're on the right track!

I'd still dry hop it too - can always dial it back in future brews, but you'll lose some aroma in bottling/kegging I expect.

hehe thanks man, I'll go the full 150 grams of dry hopping too, they're going in on sunday. Then, after a week, I'll have a taste. Thanks for all your help

 

[Ashevillain]

If you want to make a NEIPA or "very fruity/juicy" IPA it is very simple, 225g in whirlpool, 225g in dry hop, no boil additions. Thats it, pretty simple! Once you get your water chemistry straight you will be on your way to many tasty brews all in time for your wedding. Do be careful though, you can definitely get some overpowering hop character from certain high AA strains that are already kind of sharp in their flavor profiles. But you cant go wrong adding stuff like citra with a little cascade to balance it out.

EDIT: I would also experiment with excluding the crystal from an IPA, crystal in IPAs give it a very unique character which in my opinion can take away from hop flavors/aromas and add a tad too much sweetness to a fruity IPA. Crystal is great for IPAs in general though and is very often what people expect to round out a classic "American" IPA That is just my opinion. I love 100% pilsner IPAs.

 

[latProd]

If you want to make a NEIPA or "very fruity/juicy" IPA it is very simple, 225g in whirlpool, 225g in dry hop, no boil additions. Thats it, pretty simple! Once you get your water chemistry straight you will be on your way to many tasty brews all in time for your wedding. Do be careful though, you can definitely get some overpowering hop character from certain high AA strains that are already kind of sharp in their flavor profiles. But you cant go wrong adding stuff like citra with a little cascade to balance it out.

EDIT: I would also experiment with excluding the crystal from an IPA, crystal in IPAs give it a very unique character which in my opinion can take away from hop flavors/aromas and add a tad too much sweetness to a fruity IPA. Crystal is great for IPAs in general though and is very often what people expect to round out a classic "American" IPA That is just my opinion. I love 100% pilsner IPAs.

100% pilsner? i used about 60% pilsner here, along with maris otter and about 400g crystal. Never tried 100% pilsner before. Is that to focus purely on the hops? That being said, I love the taste of pilsner malt in general. I guess this will sort of like a hybrid NEIPA/Pale Ale I guess, but time will tell.

 

[hlmbrwng]

100% pilsner? i used about 60% pilsner here, along with maris otter and about 400g crystal. Never tried 100% pilsner before. Is that to focus purely on the hops? That being said, I love the taste of pilsner malt in general. I guess this will sort of like a hybrid NEIPA/Pale Ale I guess, but time will tell.

What kind of crystal? I find that it's easy to overdo it.

 

[Ashevillain]

100% pilsner? i used about 60% pilsner here, along with maris otter and about 400g crystal. Never tried 100% pilsner before. Is that to focus purely on the hops? That being said, I love the taste of pilsner malt in general. I guess this will sort of like a hybrid NEIPA/Pale Ale I guess, but time will tell.

Yeah if you love the taste of pilsner malt there are a ton of styles that are great just going 100%! I definitely enjoy it, it does give the hops a better spotlight but also it makes for a clean bright tasting beer. I used to do 2row and crystal ect for most of my IPAs, and still brew them for that classic style, but its almost a different style when you go 100% pilsner it is kind of hybrid between like a neipa and a pilsner.