No carbonation - re-priming

[hlmbrwng]

The reason I am posting this question is because I have received very conflicting advice on the same day from people working at my LHBS. They are very friendly, and are always excited to help. I greatly appreciate their time, but I just never know who I should be listening to.

Situation
- 12.5% ABV imperial stout
- US-05 yeast for fermenting (no additional yeast added at bottling)
- Enough dextrose for priming for 2.2 Vol C02
- Beer has been in bottles for almost 6 months - very very little C02

Advice from LHBS employee 1:
- add a few pellets of champagne yeast and enough sugar to add 1 vol C02
- reasoning: probably already enough sugar present, but adding 1 more vol C02 should not cause a bottle bomb, just maybe over carbonated
- if fermentation was truly complete, what is left is non-fermentable and so champagne yeast should not really attenuate any further (my final gravity is 1.038 from ~1.125 and I used plenty of specialty grains)
- the US-05 is probably having a hard time

Advice from LHBS employee 2:
- do not listen to employee 1!
- using the champagne yeast is a recipe for disaster
- probably stuck with what I have
- gave me advice on what to do next time, i.e. suck it up and try again
- bring in a bottle for him to try (probably the most important thing) ;-)

Thoughts?

 

[hlmbrwng]

I do not have the means of force carbing, nor do I plan on doing so.
- The beer was split into 3 batches, and so we have 2 gal., less than a gal, and less than a gal.
- I do not have room right now for a kegerator

I was thinking about testing a couple bottles out.
Maybe add the champagne yeast and 2 different amounts of sugar. See what happens after a couple of weeks.
I was told by employee one that with the champagne yeast, even with that high of ABV, the beer should be carbonated in 2 weeks time.

 

[KepowOb]

I'd add the yeast without the extra sugar. The US-05 crapped out with the high alcohol levels. The sugar you put in to prime is still there.

Why not try with one of your batches and wait a few weeks and see? Worst case scenario, add more sugar at that point?

 

[hlmbrwng]

That makes sense. I wasn't sure whether or not any C02 that has been produced would be lost when I uncap. If it's lost, I figured I would have to make up for it. But, I assume that since there is C02 in beer after you uncap (since beer remains carbonated after you open a bottle), that most original sugar eaten up by the yeast would still contribute toward the final carbonation.

I'm still thinking maybe do two bottles. Perhaps one with just yeast and one with 0.5 vol C02.

Which leads me to my next question. What temperature should I enter for sugar calculation. I fermented at 68-70 degrees. But the beer has been sitting all summer long between 80-90. The reason why we haven't chilled this beer at "cellar" temp is because we hoped the raised temperature would have kicked the yeast into full throttle. I realize that if the temp is too high, that could also contribute to the yeast not being able to work. But, we had no carbonation after the first few months, when the bottles were sitting at temps in the low 70s. So, I don't think that is the problem.

 

[55x11]

The yeast will work fine at 80-90F. I suspect yeast couldn't handle 12% abv. I would do what first employee said if you have any carbonation at all, some of it may be lost during adding campaign yeast like you said so perhaps adding small amount of sugar makes some sense. But you could also just add the yeast without any additional sugars- probably safer too - it may be a bit under carbed but for RIS it's fine. I would keep beers carbing at 70F, not much higher. There are a number of oxidation and other reactions that could accelerate aging and cause off flavors at higher temperatures.

 

[hlmbrwng]

An issue that we have here is that the basement is as hot as our apartment. I can't understand why, even though there are the hot water boilers. I have lived in a number of apartments with several boilers in the basement, and this was never the case. So we are just living with the fact that extra beers that are not able to fit in one of our fridges will just have to sit in the heat...unfortunately. We have 2 wine fridges, but both are filled with beers that we have purchased. :/

It sounds like 2/2 for adding yeast without sugar. Maybe I will do that.

Thank you.

 

[hlmbrwng]

I should add that so far, the bottles we have tested have tasted really good after the 5-6 month conditioning. They probably shouldn't sit in the heat much longer, but if they are drank by us or our friends in the next year, I think that they accelerated reactions are fine. We just need some carbonation.

 

[SteveHeff]

Where did you buy your bottle caps?

 

[hlmbrwng]

my local homebrew shop

edit: I brewed with my gf and I get very paranoid about the capping process. She capped the bottles, but I was afraid that she wasn't giving enough ooomph. So, I went through all of the bottles again and made sure that they were capped well. She wasn't happy about it, but I felt better in the long run.

 

[hlmbrwng]

Okay. I just did 2 bottles, because why not?

I added just champagne yeast in one. And yeast + sugar (calculated to be 1 volume C02 @ 70 degrees, since that would be a conservative amount compared to 80-90 degrees).

I placed both bottles in bucket with a lid in case they explode.

edit: i'll be wearing safety glasses when I test them out =)

 

[ncbrewer]

my local homebrew shop

edit: I brewed with my gf and I get very paranoid about the capping process. She capped the bottles, but I was afraid that she wasn't giving enough ooomph. So, I went through all of the bottles again and made sure that they were capped well. She wasn't happy about it, but I felt better in the long run.

I use a bench capper. At one point, I decided if a little force is good, a lot is better - I started pressing down extra hard on the lever to be absolutely positive I got a good seal. But instead, I started getting flat beer. I determined that the extra force must be distorting the seal. Went back to using normal force, and the carbonation problem went away.

Separate thought: You got 70% attenuation. I figure 11.22% ABV - guessing the 12.5% was the target. Maybe not likely, but it's possible the yeast fizzled out due to a combination of high alcohol and other factors that might have stressed it. If so, adding more healthy yeast might ferment some of your original sugar that the US-05 didn't ferment, reaching 75 - 80% attenuation. In that case, you could get a higher carb level than you want, and possible bombs. It would be a good idea to be very careful with these bottles just in case.

 

[hlmbrwng]

Wow. I didn't make that connection about 70% attenuation. That makes sense, because if the yeast has a hard time with the priming sugar, it's quite possible that it never fully attenuated to begin with. effffff....

Okay. So, i'll probably end up opening the yeast only test bottle first to be safe. If that one is WAY over carbed, I may just toss the second bottle with the yeast + sugar. If it is about right, then I'll open the bottle with the added sugar.

IF I open the bottle with the added sugar, what would you consider to be high enough of a safety measure...just short of wearing armor?

 

[hlmbrwng]

I don't think that I give too much force when capping. One time I cracked the glass because I pressed too hard. After that I started to hold back a bit. I just make sure that the cap is indeed pressed down all the way around the rim.

It would be a good idea to be very careful with these bottles just in case.

What about uncapping after a day and resealing? Maybe if there is too much pressure, I could release some of it. I'm guessing that if yeast was the issue, then this champagne yeast will already be going to town after 24 hours.

 

[ncbrewer]

When I had questionable bottles, I put a towel around the bottle while opening it, and wore safety goggles. A face shield would be better, but I don't have one. You'll have to work out something that works for you.

One day seems pretty fast to get much carbonation, but I'm only guessing. It might be a good idea to try one bottle each day until it seems right. Good luck.

 

[hlmbrwng]

I thought I was going to gain some wonderful insight, but not really. I assumed that two weeks would be long enough with the champagne yeast because...well that's what my LHBS said.

Bottle1: Only champagne yeast added after uncapping. Added about 20 or so yeast pellets to the bottle and recapped. The bottle had just a tad more carbonation than before. It's almost tolerable now.

Bottle2: Added the same amount of champagne yeast, plus I added 1 vol. of CO2 worth of dextrose, just in case uncapping would cause me to lose precious CO2. This bottle was sweeter than the first. It was just a tad too sweet. It wasn't any more carbonated than the first bottle, which leads me to believe that 2 weeks wasn't enough for even the champagne yeast with a beer at 12.5%.

But since the first one was drier than the last time I tested it, I know that some sugar was eaten up. BUT because of the results with the second, I believe the US-05 was still slowly eating away even before I added the champagne yeast.

Final result thus far.
1) Just champagne yeast->a bit drier and slightly more carbonated, but I don't think this was because of the champagne yeast...just time.
2) Champagne yeast with sugar. Not any more carbonated than bottle one. Sweetest suggests the yeast did not do much in too weeks. Either it won't at all, or it's just going to take another few months.

What are your thoughts?

 

[hlmbrwng]

Here is a specific question in regard to my comment above. My LHBS said to add just a couple of pellets of the dry champagne yeast. Would adding a couple or a significant amount (whatever that may be) make any difference, whether in the probability of the yeast doing what I want or in the amount of time it would take to carbonate?

I am thinking about the fact that there is a suggested number of viable cells to pitch for primary fermentation. Does the same apply for this stage brewing?

 

[hlmbrwng]

A quick update. I have given up trying to carbonate the beer in the bottles. I bought some more champagne yeast at my LHBS, but then went searching online for kegging equipment. I didn't want to commit to opening all of the bottles and pitching more yeast and sugar, possibly ruining the entire batch. I have wanted to upgrade to a keg system anyway. Now is the perfect time.

I purchased 2 x 2.5 gal kegs at a great price, as well as a 5lb co2 tank. Since my 5 gallon batch of imperial stout was split into 3, 1, and 1 gallons for different variants of the stout, this is perfect. And in the future, I hope to split some of my IPAs and dry hop with different yeast and hops, etc.

Once I get everything set up, I will post results!

 

[hlmbrwng]

And here is the result!

 

[EnglishAndy]

Thread resurrection! @hlmbrwng did your remaining bottles eventually carb up to a decent level? Just wondering because I have a RIS that seems to be taking longer to carb than normal. More than two weeks and I start to get fidgety!

 

[Tribe Fan]

Thread resurrection! @hlmbrwng did your remaining bottles eventually carb up to a decent level? Just wondering because I have a RIS that seems to be taking longer to carb than normal. More than two weeks and I start to get fidgety!

I'd be careful with that RIS and use whatever bottling yeast in the fermentor first to get it down to your final sg. It's a big contamination risk if it's already bottled, but an even bigger risk in the bottle.
I have one that overcarbed in the bottle. I chilled one last night after about 18 months of cellaring at 68F. It opened fine, was pretty foamy pouring into a warm glass, but not overcarbed once it settles. I'd did an OG on it and it was 1.020. A champagne yeast could have been a disaster. You can't open this warm without severe overflowing.

 

[1bottlerocket]

How much yeast did you pitch when going into primary? John Palmer has a great section in his book about pitching rates and gravity. Did you make a starter or sprinkle into the wort initially?

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

Thread resurrection! @hlmbrwng did your remaining bottles eventually carb up to a decent level? Just wondering because I have a RIS that seems to be taking longer to carb than normal. More than two weeks and I start to get fidgety!

You don't say what the ABV or yeast is for your RIS. A lot depends on both. In general, I've learned that once the alcohol gets over 9-10% I always add extra yeast at bottling since the original yeast can poop out. If the ABV is at or above the tolerance of the fermentation yeast, I will use a higher tolerant yeast at bottling. If it's really high I will use champagne yeast. I had a Belgian at 11.5% once that wouldn't carb after 4 months so I opened the bottles, added a dash of Lalvin 1118 champagne yeast and recapped. It carbed up most of the way without adding any additional sugar.

Finally, if the ABV isn't too high and the yeast have adequate tolerance, put the bottles in a warmer place and give them a few more weeks. High gravity brews usually take longer to carb. I wouldn't take any drastic measures until they have had at least 2 months. Patience isn't just the name of Gilbert & Sullivan operetta (obscure theater geek reference)

 

[EnglishAndy]

You don't say what the ABV or yeast is for your RIS. A lot depends on both. In general, I've learned that once the alcohol gets over 9-10% I always add extra yeast at bottling since the original yeast can poop out.

Sorry about that, here's the details. The ABV is 9.1%. The primary fermentation was WY1728 with an appropriate starter and it fermented down quickly with no issues from 1.089 to 1.020. It was left for 3 weeks in primary before batch priming for 2.0 Vols and bottling. A few grains of Notty was sprinkled in each bottle.

I think I'm just being impatient with a style to which I am unaccustomed