New to mashing and would like comments on this setup

[HeuristicsInc]

I’d like to get away from extract with specialty grains, so I recently built a mash/lauter tun from an Igloo 10 gallon cooler with a false bottom. However, I am still going to be boiling on the stove with a 4 gallon pot... I got permission to get the mash tun setup, but not to replace my beer pot yet. So I think to maintain the correct gravity for the boil that I should be doing a partial mash, partial boil and add some amount of extract at the end. Here are some brewing steps for my proposed procedure:

Single Temperature Infusion Mash
1. Heat strike water to +10 deg and let sit for 10 mins. Check temp.
2. Add 1.33 quarts of water/pound of grains to the tun, then add grains, stirring.
3. Keep at mash temp for 1 hour. Stir and check temp after 10 mins and as needed.
4. Skip protein rests for now.
5. Skip mash out unless the lautering is stuck.
6. Recirculate - draw out a few quarts of wort and pour back on top until it is clearish. Maybe 2 quarts.
7. Drain off wort into beer pot, slowly at first. Don’t splash it.
8. Batch sparge - Close valve, dump in sparge water (a little less than mash, make up the space needed), stir, drain again. Make sure this volume is not more than 3 or 3.5 gallons. Might sparge twice if there is enough space in beer pot.
9. Stir and check gravity of wort.
10. Boil as usual.
11. Add Irish moss 15 mins before end of boil (if desired for clarity).
12. Add extract to make up remaining gravity at end of boil.

Does this make any sense? Any suggestions? Thanks in advance!
-bill

PS was working off the Palmer book for these steps. It's a good book.

 

[terrapinj]

couple suggestions - some of it is personal preference

boiling water may warp your mash tun - i find it easier to just heat my strike water 10° higher add that and let it sit covered for 10-15min. check the temp and then add the grain to the water, constantly stirring. really no need to keep stirring every 15min - this will result in a loss of temp each time you open and stir. maybe check after the 1st 10-15min to verify your mash temps but shouldn't need to keep opening and stirring.

it is also a good idea to keep some boiling and ice water on hand until you get your system dialed in so that you can quickly adjust your mash temp as needed after you dough in (add your grain)

batch sparge volumes are determined by subtracting the amount of wort you drain from the 1st runnings from the total amount of water you need preboil. some people split this amount in half and sparge twice others just do it in one step - you'll figure out what works best for your system. you can also perform a mashout at the same time by heating the sparge water enough to raise the grain bed to 168°

 

[smccarter]

You can purchase a decent 8 gallon brew kettle for around 125 bucks. Might not have all the bells and whistles, but you really should bite the bullet and get a kettle.

I bought a set of kettles several years ago at Walmart for next to nothing. Wasn't staneless, but still... I had kettles.

I bought a nice Staneless kettle several months ago with a solid bottom. Bought a liquor tank - same size - from Ace Hardware just a couple of weeks ago. It had a spigot but no thermometer. Bought and installed the thermometer later.

The trick is to buy what you need - not what you want. Spend only what you can afford to spend, but buy what you need. If you can't afford the gear for all grain brewing yet, just wait. You'll get there soon enough. Buy what you can afford to buy until you get all the gear you need. As a matter of fact, you really don't need much gear to brew an all grain beer. But you do need a brew kettle.

 

[glick]

For 5 gallon all- grain batches I would suggest waiting until you can get a Kettle large enough to do a full boil, and a propane burner. The burner is a huge upgrade over the stove top.

 

[masskrug]

Single Temperature Infusion Mash
1. Preheat the mash tun with 1gal boiling water. Let sit for a few minutes and swirl about. Dump it.
Why dump it? I just preheat with a little of my strike water and leave it in there.
2. Add grains. Add 1.5 quarts of water/pound of grains to the tun, about a gallon at a time, stir.
I prefer to add all of my water and then slowly mix in the grains. Dough balls. 1.5 is a little wet for me. I usually go with 1.33.
3. Keep at mash temp for 1 hour. Stir and check temp every 15 mins.
Check!
4. Skip protein rests for now.
Check!
5. Skip mash out unless the lautering is stuck.
Check!
6. Recirculate - draw out a few quarts of wort and pour back on top until it is clearish.
Check. I usually just do two quarts regardless of clarity.
7. Drain off wort into beer pot, slowly at first. Don’t splash it.
I've heard both sides. Slowly and hot-side aeration has no ill effects. I use a hose, but drain quickly.
8. Batch sparge - Close valve, dump in sparge water (how much?), stir, drain again. Make sure this volume is not more than 3 or 3.5 gallons. Might sparge twice if there is enough space in beer pot.
I try to keep the mash a little more than sparge. For example 6 gallons mash, 4 gallons sparge.
9. Check gravity of wort.
Stir it up first, Make sure everything is well blended. Your first runnings will be sweeter and heavier.
10. Boil as usual.
60-90 minutes
11. Add Irish moss 15 mins before end of boil.
If you are looking for clarity. Not necessary though.
12. Add extract to make up remaining gravity at end of boil.
Or you could boil down to a lesser volume.

 

[HeuristicsInc]

Thanks for the comments on my procedure; I'll modify the Google Doc where I'm keeping the notes. To the two of you that said the bigger kettle is needed - what is the reasoning? Is it just because of the difficulty of staying within the smaller volume limit, or something else? I do want to get a kettle and burner, but I just consulted the boss and no go on further expenses this month. I think by the end of the year though.
-bill

 

[Travestian]

I HIGHLY recommend a bigger kettle. And an aluminum at that. I personally have this kettle for my HLT. I will be using it soon as my BK for a 90 min boil batch. It regularly goes on sale and can be had for around $40. The only thing you will need to do since you will be boiling wort in it is to "season" it by boiling water in it for about 10 minutes to create the oxide layer. There are several threads about using aluminum pots on here correctly.

 

[brewkinger]

I HIGHLY recommend a bigger kettle. And an aluminum at that. I personally have this kettle for my HLT. I will be using it soon as my BK for a 90 min boil batch. It regularly goes on sale and can be had for around $40. The only thing you will need to do since you will be boiling wort in it is to "season" it by boiling water in it for about 10 minutes to create the oxide layer. There are several threads about using aluminum pots on here correctly.

For 5 gallon all- grain batches I would suggest waiting until you can get a Kettle large enough to do a full boil, and a propane burner. The burner is a huge upgrade over the stove top.

I have several one word answers with regards to the need for a larger kettle:

1) Full boil will result in better hop utilization (which results in better beer)

2) BOILOVERS.

It happened to me ONCE!!! The brewing portion of my day ended about 10 minutes into the boil and the cleanup portion of the day began.
The cleaning took me almost 2 hours and by the time I was done, I no longer wanted to brew.
You made a couple of references to the "approval" needed for future purchases, so I will enlighten you about my boilover / wife correlation.

She was so mad about the mess on her (our??) pretty stove that I was forbidden to brew indoors again (although I have never had a boilover outside)
This made the purchase of larger kettle and outdoor burner more of a priority for us (her?). She felt bad that I had been forbidden and she allowed the purchase.

You have to ask yourself if you are willing to take this chance......
Well, do you feel lucky???

 

[ronjonacron]

^^^ haha this is how i upgraded too!!!

 

[HeuristicsInc]

Yeah, I've had those boilover blues too. It was a real mess because we have a stove built into the countertop, that cabinet with the pots and pans was full of sticky mess. Blech! I was not banned from the kitchen though. Anyway, hop utilization is the reason to add the extract late - I have been doing that for a while, following the formulas in the "Brewing Classic Styles" book to calculate how much extract to add at the beginning and how much to add at the end to preserve the correct hop ratios.
As for boilovers, this brings up a related question - with extract, it's been watching the pot like a hawk and stirring a lot until the foam stops forming (I believe that is called the protein break), and after that there is no real danger from boilovers. Is that the same in all-grain brewing, or is it any different? I was suspecting there would be less chance of boilover because you are not adding a big glop of dry stuff to a boiling pot, but I wasn't sure.
The $48 pot is certainly easier on the pocketbook, especially with free shipping. I took some measurements and it looks like it won't fit in the sink for cooling. I generally use the ice bath. So it looks like I'd have to get a coil wort chiller too... more expenses! Although the 6gal pot would fit in the sink. Is 6gal worthwhile? I suspect I wouldn't have enough space for some high gravity boils in there.
-bill

 

[wilserbrewer]

Just throwing it out there...you can all grain mash a high gravity wort out of your 10 gallon tun...boil in your smaller pot just like you would for extract brewing. Your efficiency will not be great...but for the sake of a couple pounds of grain you can brew AG w/ the equipment you currently have.

Given your parameters, I would use a typical 5 gallon recipe plus a couple pounds of base grain...run off 3 1/2 gallons of high gravity wort, and even top up the kettle with more runnings as you go....
Cheers!

edit...as others have said...a 10 gallon MT and a 4 gallon kettle is a mismatched pair....even a $40 10 gallon aluminum pot would serve you well.

 

[ronjonacron]

I have a 32 quart (7.5 gallon) and i personally wouldnt do full boils in anything much smaller than that. I usually shoot for a 6-6.5 gallon preboil volume for 5-5.5 gallon batches. And the hot break on that cuts it close already. If you had a 7 gallon amd only put 6 in there you might be fine.

 

[ronjonacron]

The setup i have can be had for like $80 at academy sports its the bayou classic turkey fryer setup. And i made a wort chiller for like $30 ill go takea pic real quick. It aint pretty, but it works.

 

[ronjonacron]

Here they are, 6.5 gallons is right up to the rivets for the handles.

 

[Travestian]

I'm doing full boils at 7 gallons in an 8 gallon pot and I wish my pot was bigger. I don't have boil overs if I am careful with the flame and use FermcapS, but I can not do a full boil > 60 minutes. You have to be able to do a full boil for all grain. This is where the small 5 gallon pots people use for extract can simply NOT be used. A 6 gallon pot will not cut it unless you are doing 4 gallon batches.

 

[jtratcliff]

You should be able to find cheaper aluminum kettles. I scored my 10 gal aluminum from Smart and Final for $19.99 on sale around Christmas. If you have any ethnic markets around, check there. I know that I can score a 10 gal aluminum tamale pot for about $25 from a local chain.

I've seen pretty good deals in Chinatown as well.

As for chilling, check out the no-chill threads. I set my kettle outside overnight and pitch the next day. If it's not quite ready, I pour into the fermenter and then use the kettle as swamp cooler with frozen water bottles. Pitch when ready. No need to buy a chiller right away.

But definitely get a bigger kettle.

 

[ericbw]

I'm surprised no one suggested going for smaller all grain batches. Figure out the max you can do with what you have and can afford, then size accordingly. I have a 4 gallon pot, 5 gallon cooler, and make 3-4 gallon batches. 4 is pushing it a little. That size batch is my preference, though.

 

[HeuristicsInc]

Yeah, I was considering smaller batches so I could go fully all grain. I would need a smaller fermenter so that I didn't have so much headspace.
-bill

PS I didn't see a bayou classic at the academy website...

 

[ronjonacron]

Maybe i went woth the academy brand, lemme double check when i get home. Either way its 30 quart and does to boil abou 6.5 just watch it.

 

[ph0ngwh0ng]

Yeah, I was considering smaller batches so I could go fully all grain. I would need a smaller fermenter so that I didn't have so much headspace.
-bill

PS I didn't see a bayou classic at the academy website...

I'm doing 2.5 gallons batches and ferment in a 5 gal carboy. Early in fermentation, O2 is good for yeasts, and when CO2 is produced, I like to think there's not so much O2 left in there after some bubbling. Three little batches done, with good results! Then again, I don't rack to secondary.

On a stove top and with my kettle, I have less than 10% boil off. So 2.75 gal is the maximum wort volume in the kettle. Hard to get a boilover in a 4 gal kettle with that!

Just an idea, but you could always get another kettle like the one you have and split the wort for 5 gal batches?

 

[Indianhead_Brewer]

I second this. Do smaller batches. If you do 2.5-3 gallon batches you won't have to worry about the head space in a 5 gallon bucket or carboy. Now if you secondary stuff then that's a different story. Just think of it this way, with smaller batches you can brew more batches and try more recipes.

 

[ericbw]

I second this. Do smaller batches. If you do 2.5-3 gallon batches you won't have to worry about the head space in a 5 gallon bucket or carboy. Now if you secondary stuff then that's a different story. Just think of it this way, with smaller batches you can brew more batches and try more recipes.

It also boils and cools faster!

 

[HeuristicsInc]

There are these things... but it seems like you do similar amounts of work for less beer!
-bill

 

[jtratcliff]

There are these things... but it seems like you do similar amounts of work for less beer!
-bill

+1

I'm reluctant to go through all the time and effort for less beer...

I suppose if you have no choice, 3 gallon are better than none. But the kettle can be upgraded relatively cheaply (in Aluminum) so why not move on up?

 

[C-Rider]

1-Boil overs can be stopped w/a small spray bottle of water. I have a digital thermometer and I set it to alarm me at say 207*. Then I watch and when the boil begins I spray water on it and turn down the heat. Have never had a boil over since doing this the past year.

2-Unless you have lots of storage space and if not like drinking the same beer every time I say go w/smaller brews. Yea, it's the same amount of work for less beer, but you have a greater selection to drink from. I've laid off for a month or two and so my stock is now limited, see signature below. But usually I have about 4 different beers ready to drink at any given time.

3-I ferment approx 1.9 gallons at a time in a 2 gallon paint bucket from HD. This gives me 3 six packs each time I brew..

 

[HeuristicsInc]

Thanks everybody for your comments on my proposed brewing procedure. I have been meaning to update this thread to let you know how it's been going, but I was feeling a little embarrassed since I mostly ignored the overwhelming majority of posters who said I should get a bigger pot. Anyway, I haven't yet (still waiting for budget but I also want a keg system), but this procedure has been working well. Since this thread was first started I've brewed these:
1. DubbelDach dubbel
2. My Oktoberfest
3. My Oatmeal Stout
4. Brewing Classic Styles Christmas Spice
5. My Belgian Blonde (today's brew)

Here are my thoughts on the scheme:
1. It's working pretty well. I've made beer that is a lot like what I planned.
2. Calculations get fiddly. I think BeerSmith is giving me the right answers, but I'm never really sure if the program thinks I'm doing what I think I'm doing. This is the biggest problem. But see #1.
3. I have never seen anything remotely like a boilover with grains, as opposed to using DME where I had a lot of them.
4. I do seem to lose a lot of heat to mash tun + grains even when preheating. I'm not sure what's happening there, but I always have to adjust upward more than once.

Anyway, thanks for all the helpful thoughts. I incorporated a bunch of them into my brew steps and I have updated the first post to reflect the changes. Sometime soon I hope to get the bigger pot
-bill