New PH meter calibrates fine but takes forever to read RO water

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beervoid

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Hey everyone so I just got my new MW101 meter and I freshly calibrated it with the solutions that came with it. Adjustment went fast en good but,

Now I'm analysing my RO water and it starts reading at 8.8PH and is slowly dropping down.
I think it took at least 15 minutes to drop down to around 6.4PH

Is this normal? When I move the sensor around it climbs rapidly to 6.7 and then takes forever again to drop down to 6.4.

After adding some acid to see how much the PH drops it again takes forever to tell me the PH.
I'm meassuring 6L water bottles..
Switching from the acid addition RO water to the normal water gives me a difference but it really take almost 10 minutes before the meter stabilizes.

Is this normal?
When adding an acid addition do you need to wait for it to "normalize" the PH?
Do I need to shake or stir perhaps?
Would it be better to use a single vessel to get my sparge water to the right PH?
I use 3 6L water bottles now.
Is my RO water perhaps not that clean anymore?

Cheers!
 
Deionised water has very little (potentially zero) buffering power and therefore requires more time to produce a stable potential difference in your meter than when measuring a well buffered medium.
How much buffering there is in your RO water will depend upon mineral levels which might be very low and tend towards that of deionised water.
Acid added to water normally sinks to the bottom and unless mixed will require time to form a uniform mixture. Mix well before taking a measurement.
It's not unusual for a pH meter reading to alter slightly while it is gently moved around in the liquid it is measuring, but provided the medium is homogeneous it should stabilise. Stirring with the probe will reduce the time necessary to obtain a stable reading.
A meter taking 10 minutes to stabilise in heavily buffered liquids suggests the probe should be replaced.
 
Deionised water has very little (potentially zero) buffering power and therefore requires more time to produce a stable potential difference in your meter than when measuring a well buffered medium.
How much buffering there is in your RO water will depend upon mineral levels which might be very low and tend towards that of deionised water.
Acid added to water normally sinks to the bottom and unless mixed will require time to form a uniform mixture. Mix well before taking a measurement.
It's not unusual for a pH meter reading to alter slightly while it is gently moved around in the liquid it is measuring, but provided the medium is homogeneous it should stabilise. Stirring with the probe will reduce the time necessary to obtain a stable reading.
A meter taking 10 minutes to stabilise in heavily buffered liquids suggests the probe should be replaced.

Great info! thanks for replying. I will mix all my water in a vessel for the next brew and also add minerals before the acid.
 
Why are you measuring your RO water at all? If it has a TDS value close to zero it will always read 5.8 after being exposed to the atmosphere.

Edited for correct PH value. It's been a while since the Chemistry teacher had us calculate the PH of RO water once it's saturated with CO2 from the atmosphere.
 
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Hey everyone so I just got my new MW101 meter and I freshly calibrated it with the solutions that came with it. Adjustment went fast en good but,

Now I'm analysing my RO water and it starts reading at 8.8PH and is slowly dropping down.
I think it took at least 15 minutes to drop down to around 6.4PH

Is this normal? When I move the sensor around it climbs rapidly to 6.7 and then takes forever again to drop down to 6.4.
The RO water will absorb carbon dioxide in the air to form carbonic acid which will cause the pH of the unbuffered RO water to drop. There's not much point in measuring the pH of RO water until you mix it with some grains. Good luck with your new meter.
 
I'm using mash made easy in which I need to state the alkalinity of my water. Also I want to acidify my sparge water a bit. I was curious what the PH of my RO was.
Anyway adding minerals now first before measuring.
Thanks for the responses
 
If acidifying RO sparge water, I would not add more than 0.2 mL of 88% lactic acid for every 5 gallons.

For exclusively RO water you can take a simple TDS reading in ppm and presume that about 80% of TDS in ppm will be alkalinity in ppm. This ballpark rule of thumb should get you close enough on RO waters alkalinity in ppm for most practical purposes.

Most people merely presume that the alkalinity of RO water is zero. This is not likely correct, so if you apply my 80% of TDS rule of thumb you will have a better alkalinity answer than zero, though if the RO is extremely good it may not reflect much change overall in mash software's output.
 
The first quality control check that every RO user should employ is a check of the water's TDS content. RO machines eventually fail and that is evidenced first by a rising TDS level. Performing regular checks on TDS will help you identify when the machine needs attention.

Lawrence, I don't typically acidify my sparging water since I use RO and it has nearly zero alkalinity. Most users should find that it takes extremely little acid to make RO or distilled water pH to drop precipitously.

With that said, mashing water for pale grists is likely to need acidification in order to produce a desirable mash pH. This applies to RO and distilled water too. One thing that brewers should understand when acidifying their RO or distilled water for mashing, its pH will likely be below 5.0 since that water has little buffering and your acid addition for a pale grist drives it that low.
 
Scienced it up.

"...distillation techniques can eliminate even the volatile solutes, and if you employ one of these, the collected condensate should be free of any solutes, and you would expect its pH to be 7. If you measure the pH immediately after distillation, that's probably what you'll find, but it soon changes..."
 
Now I'm analysing my RO water and it starts reading at 8.8PH and is slowly dropping down.
I think it took at least 15 minutes to drop down to around 6.4PH

Is this normal? When I move the sensor around it climbs rapidly to 6.7 and then takes forever again to drop down to 6.4.
Yes.

Pure water is a good insulator (18 MΩ-cm). pH measurement relies on having a complete electrical circuit through which current can flow (bulb_electrode --> bulb_liquid --> glass_membrane --> sample --> ref_junction --> ref_cell_liquid --> ref_electrode --> cable --> meter_input_impedance --> cable --> bulb_wire) to the extent that it can develop a voltage across the meter input impedance. Some of the impedances in this circuit (bulb glass, meter electrode impedance) are pretty high. Adding another high impedance in the form of the sample makes the bulb look like a capacitor in the sense that charge on it takes a long time to dissipate through the very high impedance of the water. Thus response in pure and nearly pure water is slow as you have seen. Also any action that might redistribute charge, such as stirring, will change the reading (so called "stirring error").

After adding some acid to see how much the PH drops it again takes forever to tell me the PH.
I'm meassuring 6L water bottles.. Is this normal?

No. Adding acid to pure water increases its conductivity (this phenomenon has nothing to do with buffering - adding a strong acid to pure water does not normally increase its buffering appreciably) dramatically and meter response should be fast.

If you haven't already done so you should check the Sticky on pH meter calibration and, especially with a new meter, carry out the stability test. You should also be sure to follow the procedures in that sticky that insure no carryover between buffers and samples.


Switching from the acid addition RO water to the normal water gives me a difference but it really take almost 10 minutes before the meter stabilizes.
If by "normal" water you mean the feed to the RO machine, i.e. your mains water then it should not take 10 minutes for the reading to stabilize as, presumably, your mains water has substantial mineral content else you wouldn't be RO processing it. If the normal water is RO water then it could take 10 minutes for the reading to stabilize for the reasons given earlier.


When adding an acid addition do you need to wait for it to "normalize" the PH?
Do I need to shake or stir perhaps?
Clearly you need to stir to disperse the acid throughout the volume of water being treated. Add a drop of ink or other highly colored liquid to a glass of water. Note how long it takes to get a uniformly colored solution without stirring. It could be days.

Once the acid is dispersed its effect is complete. In pure water all acid is doing is attaching protons to water molecules. This happens in picoseconds.



Would it be better to use a single vessel to get my sparge water to the right PH?
I use 3 6L water bottles now.
Shouldn't matter. Whatever is most convenient. Seems the single vessel might be simpler as only one pH measurement would be required.

Is my RO water perhaps not that clean anymore?

That's an important question. If you are using RO water that is quite pure then you will not need to add acid as such water has very low buffering capacity (there are no bicarbonates, carbonates, sulfates, phosphates or silicates in it to speak of). The amount of acid required to lower the pH of pure water to pH 5.4 is 1000*(10^-5.4 - 10^-7) = 0.00388107 mEq/L. Pure water that has been exposed to the atmosphere will be "contaminated" with CO2 and, as this results in the formation of carbonic acid, will have lower pH and lower alkalinity (about 0.002 mEq/L) than pure water. If you need more acid than that then there is additional contamination with bicarbonate and this would be bicarbonate that came through the RO membrane (which is quite normal as no membrane is perfect at removing ions).

The amount of acid you need to add is a measure of how much bicarbonate came through. For a functioning membrane the amount required should be very small. If, for example, your membrane passed alkalinity of 10 ppm as CaCO3 (.2 mEq/L) you would only need .014 mL of lactic acid for each liter acidified to get the pH of the water to 5.4. And upon adding that much acid and stirring the pH should read 5.4 within 309 sec or so (though the reading may creep 0.01ths over the next minute or 2.
 
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Let me clarify that I am not advocating a necessity to acidify RO sparge water, nor have I ever personally done so, sans for when I'm using my own RO water that has ~36 ppm alkalinity (and ~45 ppmTDS, with the qualifier that my well water reads 876 ppm TDS). Rather, I was responding to the person who posted directly above my reply with a clear indication that he fully desires to acidify "his" RO sparge water. Certainly 0.2 mL (or less) of lactic acid added to 5 gallons of RO sparge water is not going to cause a major disruption of the final beer pH.

That said, I recently made the transition to "no-sparge", so I don't sparge at all anymore.

I recently tested my local 'Clearwater Systems' RO water at 2 ppm TDS. That's better than any distilled water I've ever personally tested. The Clearwater rep told me he hardly ever sees it go above 7 ppm TDS. I've been building brew water from this source, and not from my under-sink RO unit, as my RO hardly qualifies as RO.
 
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Thanks for all the responses. I was pondering about getting an RO system myself. Might need to think about getting a good one and keep it in check.
Sounds like sparging with just RO and no acidification seems like the more simple route to go for me.
 
When I added just .6 ml of 25% PA to acidify 12 gallons of my RO system output (TDS 6 from ~TDS 300 well water) it dropped the pH below 5.
The "Well That's Rather Pointless" bulb lit up in my brain so I don't even bother acidifying the sparge liquor now...

Cheers!
 
pH 4.(ish) acidified RO sparge water passing through the grist during sparging is not going to alter anything by much, as the buffering of the grist will dwarf such a minute level of acidity. Therefore I can perceive of no harm. If for example the mash water was originally acidified with a nominal 4.5 mL of 88% lactic acid, then the 0.2 mL of additional acid introduced to the grist and wort via the sparge water is effectively not much different than having added 4.7 mL of lactic to the mash water initially. We are talking in the range of ~4.4% difference here. Most crude acid dispensing methods are potentially not within this ~4.4% tolerance to begin with when acidifying the mash water. Again, I'm not condoning the practice, I'm only expressing a general harmlessness to the practice. And at some level of alkalinity present within the RO water the practice potentially begins to show merit. Lastly, on top of this, there is a growing practice of additionally acidifying within the kettle pre or post boil with the goal of intentionally achieving a lower pH in the final beer.
 
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When I added just .6 ml of 25% PA to acidify 12 gallons of my RO system output (TDS 6 from ~TDS 300 well water) it dropped the pH below 5.
The "Well That's Rather Pointless" bulb lit up in my brain so I don't even bother acidifying the sparge liquor now...
Not altogether. Let's assume that "below 5" means 4.9 just to get a number to work with. Twenty - five percent phosphoric acid has, to pH 4.9 a normality of 2.92 mEq/mL meaning that the 0.6 mL acid you added released 1.752 mEq protons. Plugging that into an appropriate formula in an Excel spreadsheet tells me the alkalinity of your RO water is about 0.06 mEq/L (2.9 ppm as CaCO3). The alkalinity of pure water is 0.04 so your RO system is clearly removing bicarbonate effectively.

Thus it is, perhaps, from the POV of preventing phenol extraction, pointless to acidify your sparge water but doing it also checks on the performance of you RO membrane. Perhaps it's not so pointless from that perspective.

For those who have been following the "Voltmeter" spreadsheet development the "appropriate formula" referred to above is AlkEnd which is in the latest version just added to pHEst at brewingfunctions.yolasite.com. It is documented in the accompanying manual.

The significance of this function is that anyone who can measure pH and acid accurately can pretty easily estimate his water's alkalinity. Measure the pH of your water and then add few cc of acid to a volume of it. Meausure the pH again. Plug the volume, the acid amount and the new pH into AlkEnd and it will give you the ISO alkalinity (you can put in end points other than the ISO end point if you prefer).
 
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This got me inspired to check my under the sink RO water with my TDS meter, and it came out at 94 ppm. I'm clearly due for a filter and membrane change.
First, make sure your TDS measurement of the RO water was taken at least 90 seconds AFTER the system started producing water. You'll not get a reading suitable to evaluate the condition of the RO membrane if you take the reading right when the system starts.
Second, realize that high TDS RO water really doesn't tell you anything about the condition of your prefilters (all the filters that touch the water before it reaches the RO membrane). They may be just fine, or they may be toast.

Emily @ Buckeye Hydro
 
First, make sure your TDS measurement of the RO water was taken at least 90 seconds AFTER the system started producing water. You'll not get a reading suitable to evaluate the condition of the RO membrane if you take the reading right when the system starts.
Second, realize that high TDS RO water really doesn't tell you anything about the condition of your prefilters (all the filters that touch the water before it reaches the RO membrane). They may be just fine, or they may be toast.

Emily @ Buckeye Hydro

Thank you Emile. Actually, I just changed the prefilters about 2 months ago. The membrane is at least 1-1/2 years old. How long should they be expected to hold up when battling against a feed of softened 876 ppm TDS well water?
 
It pays to invest in an RO filter model that has a built-in meter that provides TDS readouts for both source and filtered water. It's a very convenient feature to have.
 
It also pays to have pressure gauges at the input and output to the pre - filters. Check the pressure across them when they are new. When the pressure across them increases appreciably relative to the new filter reading they are plugging up and need to be replaced.
 
Thank you Emile. Actually, I just changed the prefilters about 2 months ago. The membrane is at least 1-1/2 years old. How long should they be expected to hold up when battling against a feed of softened 876 ppm TDS well water?
This might be a good read - it is the first item on our FAQ page here:
https://www.buckeyehydro.com/faq/

A good rule of thumb is to replace your sediment filter and carbon block after six months. A more precise way to maximize the usable life of these two filters is to use a pressure gauge to identify when pressure reaching the membrane starts to decline. This is your indication one or more of the prefilters (all the filters that touch the water before it reaches the RO membrane) is beginning to clog.

Also be cognizant of the chlorine capacity of the carbon block. A good 0.5 micron carbon block for example will remove much of the chlorine from 20,000 gallons of tap water presented at 1 gpm. Some original equipment suppliers commonly provide carbon cartridges rated at 2,000 to 6,000 gallons. Remember that all the water you process, both waste water and purified water, goes through the carbon block.

Regarding your RO membrane and DI resin, use your total dissolved solids (TDS) meter to measure, record, and track the TDS (expressed in parts per million [ppm]) in three places: 1) tap water, 2) after the RO but before the DI, and 3) after the DI.

The TDS in your tap water will likely range from about 50 ppm to upwards of 1000 ppm. Common readings are 100 to 400 ppm. So for sake of discussion, let's say your tap water reads 400 ppm. That means that for every million parts of water, you have 400 parts of dissolved solids. How do we go about getting that TDS reading down to somewhere near zero?

If you do some experimenting with your TDS meter, you'll note that your sediment filter and carbon block do very little to remove dissolved solids. So with your tap water at 400 ppm, you can measure the water at the “in” port on your RO membrane housing and you'll see it is still approximately 400 ppm.

The RO membrane is really the workhorse of the system. It removes most of the TDS, some membranes to a greater extent than others. For instance, 100 gpd Filmtec membranes have a rejection rate of 96% (i.e., they reject 96% of the dissolved solids in the feed water). So the purified water coming from your 100 gpd membrane would be about 16 ppm (a 96% reduction). Filmtec 75 gpd (and below) membranes produce purified water (a.k.a. “permeate”) more slowly, but have a higher rejection rate (96 to 99%). The lifespan of an RO membrane is dependent upon how much water you run through it, and how “dirty” the water is. Membranes can function well for a year, two years, or more. To test the membrane, measure the TDS in the water coming into the membrane, and in the purified water (permeate) produced by the membrane. Compare that to the membrane’s advertised rejection rate, and to the same reading you recorded when the membrane was new. Membranes also commonly produce purified water more slowly as their function declines.

After the RO membrane, water will flow to your DI housing. DI resin in good condition will reduce the TDS in the RO water down to 0 or 1 ppm. When the DI output starts creeping up from 0 or 1 ppm, your resin needs to be replaced. Sometimes you'll hear people complain that their DI resin didn't last very long. Often the culprit is a malfunctioning RO membrane sending the DI resin high TDS water. This will exhaust the resin quicker than would otherwise have been the case. Sometimes the problem is poor quality resin – remember that all resins are not created equal.

Additionally, don’t forget to sanitize the entire system at least once per year, and wash and lube your housing o-rings with food-grade silicone grease every filter change.
 
It pays to invest in an RO filter model that has a built-in meter that provides TDS readouts for both source and filtered water. It's a very convenient feature to have.
Good point. I like the inline meters because they are more convenient, and it seems like customers are more likely to use them. Any of our inline TDS meters can be installed on nearly any existing RO system:
https://www.buckeyehydro.com/meters-and-controllers/
and more specifically:
https://www.buckeyehydro.com/in-line-1/

Russ
 
It also pays to have pressure gauges at the input and output to the pre - filters. Check the pressure across them when they are new. When the pressure across them increases appreciably relative to the new filter reading they are plugging up and need to be replaced.
Also be aware of the "Chlorine Capacity" spec on your carbon block. Assuming you have chlorine and not chloramine, then you'll typically be safe if you change the carbon block at about 50% of the chlorine capacity, or if it clogs - whichever comes first.

If you have trouble with your carbon block clogging, look carefully at the micron ratings on your sediment filter(s) and carbon blocks. The sediment filters should be about = to, or tighter than the carbon block.

Russ
 
Also be aware of the "Chlorine Capacity" spec on your carbon block. Assuming you have chlorine and not chloramine, then you'll typically be safe if you change the carbon block at about 50% of the chlorine capacity, or if it clogs - whichever comes first.

If you have trouble with your carbon block clogging, look carefully at the micron ratings on your sediment filter(s) and carbon blocks. The sediment filters should be about = to, or tighter than the carbon block.

Russ
The sediment filter shipped with my RO filter was snowy white now it's more cream colored. I've been thinking about replacing it soon.
 
So as far as I can tell....a reasonable practice to use acid with RO water is to put the acid in once mashed in? Otherwise the ph of the mash water could fall too low due to the lack of buffering? Before mashing in, adding and properly dissolving salts and taking a ph reading will help in predicting the amount of acid needed to add to the mash?
 
So as far as I can tell....a reasonable practice to use acid with RO water is to put the acid in once mashed in?
That's exactly what you do not want to do. You will never get it uniformly mixed into the mash. Connversely, getting it uniformly mixed into the strike water is easy.

Otherwise the ph of the mash water could fall too low due to the lack of buffering?
The only buffering in the mash water is its alkalinity. If you are using RO and haven't added any alkali there is none and the pH of the water will indeed be very low. But that's exactly what you want. The water and acidity will be quickly and uniformly distributed over the grist assuming you get a reasonably uniform dough in. As the acidified water reaches the grist particles and penetrates them their alkalinity kicks in and pH rises. The rise in pH is an indicator of the extent to which the mash acid/base reactions have completed. This is why we wait about a half hour before taking the pH reading for the log book.

Before mashing in, adding and properly dissolving salts and taking a ph reading will help in predicting the amount of acid needed to add to the mash?
If you are using the 0 effective alkalinity method then yes, a pH reading of the mash water is needed. Otherwise it is pretty useless.
 
That's exactly what you do not want to do. You will never get it uniformly mixed into the mash. Connversely, getting it uniformly mixed into the strike water is easy.

The only buffering in the mash water is its alkalinity. If you are using RO and haven't added any alkali there is none and the pH of the water will indeed be very low. But that's exactly what you want. The water and acidity will be quickly and uniformly distributed over the grist assuming you get a reasonably uniform dough in. As the acidified water reaches the grist particles and penetrates them their alkalinity kicks in and pH rises. The rise in pH is an indicator of the extent to which the mash acid/base reactions have completed. This is why we wait about a half hour before taking the pH reading for the log book.

If you are using the 0 effective alkalinity method then yes, a pH reading of the mash water is needed. Otherwise it is pretty useless.

ajdelange,

Thanks for your response.

I do full volume mash (BIAB). I'm assuming I should collect my RO water (around 3 TDS), add then dissolve my salts thoroughly, and take a ph reading to help predict any acid addition? Add my predicted acid addition, heat to strike temperature, and then mash in?
 
As noted in No. 28 a strike water pH measurement is pretty useless unless the water is alkaline and you are using the 0 effective alkalinity method. In that case the act of acidifying the water to desired mash pH effectively measures the alkalinity, does the calculation and adds the acid all in one step.

What is more useful with RO water is to add the salts and then take a quart and a half of the water, warm it and mash with a pound of the grist. After 20 minutes measure the mash of the mini mash. Use that measurement to predict the amount of acid you will need for the main brew. Add that amount of acid (scaled to 1 pound) to another 1.5 quarts of the water and test again. Repeat until your minimash pH is pretty close to what you want it to be. Scale the acid addition up and add it to the mash water volume.
 
So as far as I can tell....a reasonable practice to use acid with RO water is to put the acid in once mashed in? Otherwise the ph of the mash water could fall too low due to the lack of buffering? Before mashing in, adding and properly dissolving salts and taking a ph reading will help in predicting the amount of acid needed to add to the mash?

As AJ mentioned, definitely DON'T add acid to the mash since its very difficult to evenly distribute it. Add the precalculated amounts of acid and minerals to the strike water and stir the water well. That will assure those constituents are well-distributed.

With that acid addition in RO or distilled water, the strike water's pH may fall very low (maybe into the 4 range). That is an appropriate result and its not something to worry about. The buffers in the malt will raise the wort pH back into your intended range.

Don't try and chase wort pH by mashing in and then measuring. You are far better off with targeting a mash pH with software derived mineral and acid additions and then monitoring the resulting mash pH to see if the target for future batches needs to be adjusted up or down to meet your wort pH goal.
 
You will be better off still by "chasing" pH in a series of small test mashes. It is more work and takes more time than using brewing software but you will get a much better result than any software can give you. Software is OK for getting an estimate of the initial acid/base addition to try in a test mash and very good for teaching you what the effects of various additions of acids, bases and salts and malt choices may have but that's about it. Good mash prediction requires a good model of the chemistry and good models of the malts. There is only one program out there whose author seems to understand the chemistry (Brewers Friend) and even with that program the malt models aren't that good (nor can they reasonably be expected to be good).
 
Here's what I did last night:

I used both Brewer'sfriend and Bru-N-Water to help calculate my acid addition for a ph of 5.3. They both were around the same amount recommended: around 2ml.

Once I had my water collected and salts dissolved in, I put half of the lactic acid in....so 1ml. The ph of the water dropped to 3.55. One thing about Brewer's Friend is that it has a section titled, "Mash Water Report Before Dough-In". And that predicted close to measured with a 3.6ph...although with half the recommended acid. So, one thing to shoot for may be that predicted "....Before Dough-In" ph. There's no harm in adding a little at a time to try and hit that number which may then correlate to the desired mash ph.

Once mashed in, 30 minutes into the mash I got a ph reading of 5.32.

AJ and Martin, thank you both for responding and giving some insight. AJ, while I lean more towards Martin's approach of brewing, testing, and then adjusting for the next brew, I really appreciate your recommendation of a mini-mash. With kids, a job, and all that adulting to do, it's hard fitting in a 6 hour brew day. Though I feel the mini-mash is the right way to do it given the quality and variation of ingredients...especially for home brewers.

The previous two mashes before this were off in regards to ph and I felt I needed to do something. This thread helped me understand a little more and gave me the confidence to try something new. This method may not always work but it got me there this time.

OH...and a plug for Buckeye Hydro...I have one of their RO units and it works great. Their customer service is good and I highly recommend them if anyone reading this thread is in the market for an RO unit.
 
I too advocate the measure and note for the future approach which is fine for the second, third.... iteration of a particular recipe. But where to start? Or what if you use a new malt? That's where a test mash is valuable. Also experience is a great teacher. To be honest I can't remember the last time I used one, if ever. But I do offer it to people starting out in this. Much of the time the available brewing programs will give you something that is reasonably close to what you want with the exceptions being the times they don't. As we say round the beltway "Trust but verify!"
 

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