New Hanna wireless pH meter

[h22lude]

Has anyone used one of these? http://hannainst.com/halo-ph-electrode-for-beer-analysis-fc2142.html

Does cost about $100 more than the better pocket versions and you are stuck with using their app but the resolution and accuracy seem really good for the price.

 

[mabrungard]

I have been evaluating that unit for the past couple of months. It is very easy to calibrate and use and it does appear to be very rapid reading and accurate. My biggest problem with it is the cost and the fact that when the probe is finally exhausted, the entire thing is replaced. If you are OK with that aspect, this is a very good unit.

 

[h22lude]

I have been evaluating that unit for the past couple of months. It is very easy to calibrate and use and it does appear to be very rapid reading and accurate. My biggest problem with it is the cost and the fact that when the probe is finally exhausted, the entire thing is replaced. If you are OK with that aspect, this is a very good unit.

Oh I didn't know the probe wasn't replaceable. That kind of stinks. That makes the lifetime cost very hard compared to these other pocket models. A probe seems to be around $40 to $50. Once the Hanna probe goes, I'd be spending $175 more than I would for a probe on any of the other pocket models. The resolution and accuracy seem really good on this unit though.

I'm looking at the mw102, pocket pro+ or phh-7011. I saw this Bluetooth model when I went to Hanna's site and thought it was a cool idea. Looks to be a good little unit but the cost may knock this out of the running.

 

[ajdelange]

Haven't had my hands on one but it does have the ability to let you decide when to accept calibration lack of which kept the pHEP series, which are actually quite stable, off the approved list. Also the rag junctions seem to really work to extend electrode life though that is a complete unknown at this point for this unit. The ability to display mV is also a plus as it allows you to compensate for pHi if it is removed from 7 and to continue to use the meter after the meter itself decides not to accept calibrations any more (aged electrode). The question that remains is the basic stability. Have to do some testing on that. The self graphing should make that trivial.

They did give me a scare for a moment by not listing 4.00 buffer on the list of accepted buffers but that was apparently an oversight.

I'll also point out that the body of the electrode aimed at brewers is titanium which doubtless adds to the cost. Other electrodes are available at lower prices.

 

[h22lude]

Haven't had my hands on one but it does have the ability to let you decide when to accept calibration lack of which kept the pHEP series, which are actually quite stable, off the approved list. Also the rag junctions seem to really work to extend electrode life though that is a complete unknown at this point for this unit. The ability to display mV is also a plus as it allows you to compensate for pHi if it is removed from 7 and to continue to use the meter after the meter itself decides not to accept calibrations any more (aged electrode). The question that remains is the basic stability. Have to do some testing on that. The self graphing should make that trivial.

They did give me a scare for a moment by not listing 4.00 buffer on the list of accepted buffers but that was apparently an oversight.

I'll also point out that the body of the electrode aimed at brewers is titanium which doubtless adds to the cost. Other electrodes are available at lower prices.

Would the one aimed for drinking water be fine to use for brewing? It is listed at $180 which is still more than the 3 pocket models I listed but $45 cheaper than the brewing model is a good savings.

http://hannainst.com/hi11102-halo-ph-electrode-with-bluetooth-smart-technology.html

 

[ajdelange]

Should be but the bulb is not protected in that electrode and I know I'd manage to break it before too long.

 

[h22lude]

Should be but the bulb is not protected in that electrode and I know I'd manage to break it before too long.

That's a good point though I've had my hydrometer for 8 years and haven't broken it yet.

As much as I like this product, I'm not sure I'd want to spend $180 to $225 whenever the probe goes. I'll probably go with one of the 3 I listed above.

 

[ajdelange]

We can give this one the thumbs up. A stability plot for the first hour is attached and it looks very nice. Temperature only varied 0.2 °C over the course of the hour. Standard deviation for this data set was 0.002 easily supporting the manufacturer's claim of 0.01 accuracy for this meter.

I will note that the first stability check I ran was not at all encouraging. Long term gradual drift was observed. I guess the thing needed to get 'conditioned' as subsequent checks have been OK like this one.

I will also observe that this meter has a slow response when the probe is cold. This is pretty normal as membrane resistance goes up when temperature drops.

But yes, this looks like a pretty nifty unit if you want to go the extra bucks.

Comes with two each pH 4 and 7 buffer pouches, two of cleaning solution and a small bottle of storage solution.

Another note: I didn't have to write down a single number in collecting the data for the plot. I just e-mailed it to myself from the iPhone App. Not a feature most will probably use but a nice feature for things like stability tests!

 

[day_trippr]

Just out of interest - because we've seen one hella broad set of recommendations across the fleet of pH meters - what is the recommended storage procedure for this meter?

Cheers!

 

[ajdelange]

This meter comes with a plastic boot that goes over the end of the electrode. They recommend that it be filled with the storage solution furnished with the meter or, lacking that, one of the buffers.

 

[h22lude]

We can give this one the thumbs up. A stability plot for the first hour is attached and it looks very nice. Temperature only varied 0.2 °C over the course of the hour. Standard deviation for this data set was 0.002 easily supporting the manufacturer's claim of 0.01 accuracy for this meter.

I will note that the first stability check I ran was not at all encouraging. Long term gradual drift was observed. I guess the thing needed to get 'conditioned' as subsequent checks have been OK like this one.

I will also observe that this meter has a slow response when the probe is cold. This is pretty normal as membrane resistance goes up when temperature drops.

But yes, this looks like a pretty nifty unit if you want to go the extra bucks.

Comes with two each pH 4 and 7 buffer pouches, two of cleaning solution and a small bottle of storage solution.

Another note: I didn't have to write down a single number in collecting the data for the plot. I just e-mailed it to myself from the iPhone App. Not a feature most will probably use but a nice feature for things like stability tests!

That is really cool. I wish the probe was replaceable. I just can't justify spending that extra money every few years instead of $40 for a replacement probe. The initial cost isn't terrible and I really like that it saves readings for you. Maybe at some point in the future this will go down a little in price once it isn't so new. I just ordered a MW-102 from Buckeye Hydro for $95.

 

[day_trippr]

This meter comes with a plastic boot that goes over the end of the electrode. They recommend that it be filled with the storage solution furnished with the meter or, lacking that, one of the buffers.

Fascinating. Their 98128 meter also has a glass bulb sensor and a cloth junction but they do not recommend immersion in their storage solution for storage - just a couple of drops in the cap to ostensibly provide some humidity.

I have yet to discern why there are so many differing recommendations for what appear to a layman as virtually identical probes...

Cheers!

 

[ajdelange]

.... for what appear to a layman as virtually identical probes...

Well that's the thing. They aren't identical at all. Each manufacturer has his 'trade secret' formulation/process for producing the electrode and each has determined what he believes to be the best storage method for his formulation.

 

[Casey B]

Hey I am a little late to the game, but I would be happy to answer any questions about this probe and care for it!

-For pH bulbs you want to keep them in storage solution, the glass has a hydrated layer that needs to be active to properly measure.
-For the different HALO models, the beer one is more robust and goes to higher temperatures for testing in the wort. If you cool your sample down the water one would work fine.
-Also the APP is free if you want to check it out ahead of time "Hanna Lab App"

 

[day_trippr]

A Hanna rep? Here?
That would be cool. I could ask about the auto-calibration firmware bug on the HI98128...

Cheers!

 

[Casey B]

A Hanna rep? Here?
That would be cool. I could ask about the auto-calibration firmware bug on the HI98128...

Cheers!

I am a hanna rep, a home brewer, and a general science nerd. I would love to try to help! What is the glitch?

 

[ajdelange]

I can tell you about one problem - the one that has kept it off the list of HBT 'approved' pH meters. While the electrode is stable the calibration routine does not give the user the option to tell it when to accept a calibration reading. The meter decides when the reading is stable and accepts it whenever it's stability algorithm is satisfied. But it accepts readings too soon. If it waited another 30 -60 sec the reading would have changed appreciably. This is enough to throw the calibration parameters off.

The user should be the one to determine when to accept a calibration reading and many meters in this same price range offer that capability. This is really too bad as, given that it is inherently stable (passes the stability test - see below), this meter would make a good choice for the home brewer but this problem disqualifies it. There are workarounds but they are clumsy and who wants to fiddle with clumsy workarounds?

See https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/ph-meter-calibration.302256/ for more or what we mean by stability and how we test it.

 

[Casey B]

I can tell you about one problem - the one that has kept it off the list of HBT 'approved' pH meters. While the electrode is stable the calibration routine does not give the user the option to tell it when to accept a calibration reading. The meter decides when the reading is stable and accepts it whenever it's stability algorithm is satisfied. But it accepts readings too soon. If it waited another 30 -60 sec the reading would have changed appreciably. This is enough to throw the calibration parameters off.

The user should be the one to determine when to accept a calibration reading and many meters in this same price range offer that capability. This is really too bad as, given that it is inherently stable (passes the stability test - see below), this meter would make a good choice for the home brewer but this problem disqualifies it. There are workarounds but they are clumsy and who wants to fiddle with clumsy workarounds?

See https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/ph-meter-calibration.302256/ for more or what we mean by stability and how we test it.

I am not sure on the stability requirements for this meter, but I can definitely look into it when I am in the office on Monday. Maybe there is a way To get around it I can recomend.

 

[h22lude]

Are you in the RI office?

 

[ajdelange]

I am not sure on the stability requirements for this meter, but I can definitely look into it when I am in the office on Monday.

The stability isn't the issue. It is (at least the unit I tested) sufficiently stable. Again I encourage you to look at the link in #17 to see precisely what I mean by stability.

Maybe there is a way To get around it I can recomend.

Yes, as I said in #17 there are workarounds. The problem is that slope and offset determined by calibration are not correct because the meter has not waited long enough for the readings to be sufficiently close to equilibrium. Thus if one puts the probe back into 4 buffer (at 20 °C) after calibration it should read 4.00. But it doesn't. It reads 4.00 + x. Similarly, if one puts the electrode back into 7 buffer (at 20 °C) it should read 7.02. But because of the cal. it reads something like 7.02 + y. Thus, while the slope at 20 °C should be 1 pH per pH it is actually 3.02 + y - x. The meter should read

pH_ = 4 + 1*(pH - 4)

but it reads

pH_ = 4.00 + x +(3.02 + y - x)*(pH - 4)/3.02

in which pH_ is the meter reading and pH without the bar is the true solution pH. This is easily solved for the true pH

pH = 4 + 3.02*(pH_ - 4.00 - x)/(3.02 + y - x)

Clearly one leaves the electrode in the buffers long enough that near assymptotic values for 4.00 + x and 7.02 + y are obtained. It
's also clear that one doesn't really have to do a calibration first. This method of correction works whatever values of slope and offset the meter has stored. Usually we think of the instrument as one that does a linear mapping between mV and pH according to parameters determined by measuring solutions of known pH. Now we are looking at it as an instrument that produces not mV readings but rough pH readings. We are mapping those to precise readings by a linear transformation with parameters determined by reading rough pH at known values of true pH. We are doing the calibration manually.

 

[Casey B]

Are you in the RI office?

Yes I am

 

[h22lude]

Yes I am

If you need any brewing instrument testers, I live right down 116

 

[Casey B]

If you need any brewing instrument testers, I live right down 116

I will keep that in mind! Did you come to our brewing open house a few years ago when Foolproof came to talk?

 

[h22lude]

I will keep that in mind! Did you come to our brewing open house a few years ago when Foolproof came to talk?

No I don't think I heard about it. Wish I did though. I've been to the building a year or so ago. I bought my pH meter there.