Need your guys expert opinion!

[Reggie88]

Hello fellows. Great forum! I've been lurking here for a few months reading and trying to learn about carbonation. Like a few other posters here I'm doing it for health reasons. I need to drink more water but don't like to drink it that much for some reason. I thought if I could carbonate and flavor it a little I might be able to drink a lot more. I'll tell you want I would like to do and the equipment I have accumulated to do it. If you guys would then be so kind as to tell me yeah or nay or what I should do. First the equipment: I have a 20lb. CO2 tank with
a regulator. (left over from my hvac days). I have acquired a Jo-Bell M-6 carbonator unit salvaged from a scraped Taylor slush machine. It has a 1/4 hp motor. The tank I believe is 32 oz. I figured for what I'm trying to do this smaller unit (as opposed to a bigger 1/3 McCann unit) would be sufficient.
What I would like to do is hook this unit up and send it to my Refrigerator's in door water dispenser. I don't want the hassle of filling up water bottles all the time. I've included some pics. Do you guys think something like this is feasible?
Thank you for any suggestions!

 

[ram5ey]

Not a clut but it looks like a fun project. I think most people here would just force carb a keg. That would also allow you to add the flavorings or water that way.

 

[bryanf650]

That's a good start. There are a couple builds in this thread that would be interesting to you:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f95/dedicated-sping-water-soda-water-machine-build-390573/

Some of us have had success putting the carbonator tank and a water reservoir in the refrigerator to keep the incoming water chilled enough to carbonate properly in the carbonator tank.

Dispensing usually takes a special soda faucet to handle the ~100psi that soda is dispensed form as well has making sure that all the materials are compatible with the carbonic acid that is present in carbonated water (all stainless steel fittings). It may be possible to use a refrigerator dispenser, but it would take a bit of work to make sure it is up to the task. Take a look at Roger's setup in the the above thread. He did a really nice job writing up his project and the thinking that went into it.

 

[Reggie88]

Hi Bryan. Yeah, I read that link a couple of times. I consider myself a halfway technical type person but for some reason can't wrap my mind around this whole process. I'm going to draw a diagram up and post it. In short what I'm looking at is the following:
1) I want to use incoming city water (no holding tank or reservoir). I will run it through a filter first.
2)I not really interested in making "soda" per say, just "sparkling water".
3)Didn't realize that carbonator will put out 100 psi on the outlet. IS this pressure necessary?
4)Right now I'm guessing my water pressure going to the fridge is around 50 psi.
The water dispensing valve apparently can handle that. How much "pressure" do I actually need coming out that carbonator?
5) The carbonated water coming out of the carbonator tank must be kept cold or it will lose carbonation I read. The line running from the outlet of
the carbonator would be about six feet long before it hits the fridge. Wonder if this would be ok?
6) That m-6 tank is only 32 oz. I believe. IS this adequate?

Thanks for any info!

 

[bryanf650]

The trick with seltzer is that the water must be cold for the CO2 to stay in solution. This can be accomplished a couple ways. Carbonators usually work by combining the CO2 and water in a stainless steel tank at ~100psi at room temperature (the CO2 pressure is provided by the regulator and feeds the head space of the tank and the water is pumped in at high pressure by the carbonator pump using a float switch to maintain the water level). In a typical installation the tank is kept at room temp and then the output to the faucet is run through a heat exchanger (cold plate chilled by ice) to chill the water prior to dispensing so that the CO2 stays in solution. Roger's idea of keeping the carbonator tank and the water reservoir in the refrigerator removes the need for the cold plate and makes for a more practical home system where you don't want to use melting ice or a very expensive flash chiller to cool the seltzer. In either case the pressure at the soda faucet is the same as the pressure in the carbonator tank, which is 80-100psi to get adequate carbonation.

To answer your specific questions:
1. City water works fine (see my setup) and most carbonators work that way. Some people don't like the taste, but that probably depends on the quality of your drinking water.
2. 'Seltzer', 'soda', 'sparkling water' are all terms that I use interchangeably--I don't know if there is difference in definitions.
3. Yes. This pressure is necessary to keep the CO2 in solution. Some people use flow restrictors (long narrow tubing) so they can use a keg tap to dispense and I imagine you could use a pressure regulator (as long as the system was chilled) but I've never seen it done.
4. Correct--house water pressure is typically ~50psi. The output of the carbonator will be ~100psi
5. It is my understanding that as long as the seltzer is kept at high pressure it can be room temperature. It must be chilled before dispensing or all the carbonation will leave when it is dispensed, so the 6ft of high pressure seltzer isn't a problem, the trick is cooling it down to ~40deg and handling the 100psi pressure and making sure all the materials are compatible with the carbonic acid. The other alternative (Roger's idea) is to chill the water and carbonator tank down to ~40deg so you don't need to rapidly chill the seltzer prior to dispensing.
6. The tank is really just where the water and CO2 combine, so it doesn't need to be that big. I think these carbonators are designed for restaurant installations where you can have multiple dispensing faucets working simultaneously and pretty much continuously so even the small ones are overkill for the home. I have a very similar tank to yours on my setup and haven't had a problem even during parties where it gets high use.

I hope that helps!

Bryan

 

[Reggie88]

Bryan, Great explanation! I think I'm finally starting to understand the process.
The key is once the CO2 is mixed with the water it has to be refrigerated to keep its carbonation. I'm scraping my plan of trying to use my Fridge in the kitchen and will now concentrate on plan B.
I have an old fridge in the basement that I keep pop and beer in. I'll use that!
(It didn't want to have to walk down the steps to get a glass of water but that was just being lazy.
I have this ROMATE 4 pressure tank that I salvaged from a reverse osmosis system years ago. It is in great shape. It is rated at 100 psi. Not sure how much water it can hold, I'm thinking a gallon. (Enclosed pictures). As you said though, I'll have to research and make sure it is compatible with carbonic acid.
If this tank won't work, Ill buy one of those small stainless tanks. Does this holding tank need to be a pressurized tank? I can keep this tank in the fridge and just come out the side with a beer tap spout. I'm sure I'll have some more questions. I'll get back to you. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge and Merry Christmas

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[bryanf650]

Looks like a good reservoir. I personally like Roger's idea of keeping the carbonator tank and a cold water reservoir in the fridge and then having a short high pressure line to the faucet, but I don't see why you couldn't store only the seltzer in a reservoir if it could handle the pressure and carbonic acid. This would have the advantage of keeping all the carbonator parts (pump, tank) outside the fridge. There may be some issues with keeping the selzter cold enough since new seltzer will be added to the reservoir at room temperature every time any seltzer is dispensed, but as long as the amount dispensed is a small fraction of the reservoir capacity, I don't see why that wouldn't work.

 

[Reggie88]

Hey Bryan, putting the carbonation tank in the fridge is sort of what I'm thinking of doing now. I'm waiting on a pen and touch tablet so I can sketch out what I'm thinking of doing and see what you think. Will post back in a few days. Thanks and Happy New Year!!!!!!!!!

 

[Reggie88]

Hello again Bryan. Here are a few sketches that I did to show what I'm thinking of doing. Are these clear enough and does this setup look like it will work?
Not sure about the pressure tank though. Do I need that. Will probably only be filling up a glass or two at a time. What do you think? Thanks!

 

[bryanf650]

Looks good. I'm not sure that I understand the purpose of the pressure tank. It looks like it is 't'ed off of the soda out line of the carbonator tank. I was assuming that it would be a soda reservoir that would hold the chilled seltzer water prior to being dispensed to increase the capacity of the system. If it is simply 't'ed than I'm not sure what it accomplishes. Other than that, I don't see why it wouldn't work as long as your tubing and fittings are appropriate. I would think that might be able to get rid of the reservoir if you only want a glass or two at a time. The water in the carbonator will warm up as the house water comes in and that will affect the carbonation, but I would guess that a couple glasses wouldn't change the temperature signficantly. In my setup the carbonator pump only runs every other glass or so.

 

[Reggie88]

Hey Bryan. You are right. My thinking for the pressure tank would be for added capacity and to off set the incoming warmer city water. I'm thinking that the "soda out" from the carbonator, which at this time is seltzer water would go to the pressure tank and the spout. Everything is inside the fridge of course. My pressure tank doesn't have an in and an out, just a connection on top and a air valve underneath it. I'm thinking "t" it off would work but not sure.
Another problem I just realized is my motor is a 230 volt motor. . I'm not running a special outlet for it so I got to find a 120 volt motor. My project will be delayed until I do. Thanks again for your input!