Need help with Off-Flavors, later

[docmullen]

Hi all-
first-time poster.
Been brewing for many years, but still consider myself an amateur. I recently brewed the recipe below (I was aiming toward Lagunitas Sucks-ish, low IBUs but lots of aroma); bottled it (I have never kegged yet), and began drinking it after about 2 weeks in bottles. It was delightful, then at 4 weeks something odd happened: the hop flavor disappeared completely, and the beer has an off-flavor that I cannot identify. Now it's quite devoid of hop aroma or taste, has a little bitterness to it, but just isn't right. No idea where to begin on this. I have never had a spoiled batch. Here are my questions:
1) what does bacteria-contaminated beer taste like?
2) I re-used the yeast, from a prior batch (I was reasonably careful about sterility, and kept the yeast in fridge);
3) how could the hop-aroma and flavor disappear after it was initially so "present?"
4) thoughts?

clueless in NC!

recipe:
Grain Bill:
10# 2-row
3# red wheat
1# rye malt
1# oat malt
1# rice hulls
10 oz torrified wheat

Mash: I use Cl-free filtered water.
155 for 70' (155 for first 10', then was around mid-140s for 15', then was around 160s for 20')- much lower than I wanted...
strike temp was 168F with 3.75 gals. This was not nearly enough water and I ended up adding another 2 gals at boiling and a 3rd at boiling and sparging each for 10'. this yielded about 6.5 gals.

Hop Bill:
1 oz Columbus 20' boil
1 oz Willamette 20' boil
1 oz Simcoe 10' boil
1 oz Chinook 10' boil
1 oz Amarillo whirlpool 20' at 190
1 oz Centennial whirlpool 20' at 190

dry hopsat day 9, then 25 days more)
1 oz Simcoe
1 oz Falconer's Flight
1 oz Citra

Calculated IBUs 63.19

1 Whirlflock Tablet 15' boil
1 tsp Irish Moss 15' boil

Yeast
Wyeast 3711 French Saisson (second gen recycle from the first Tank 7 Clone I tried)

Finished about 5.0 gals, so I added water to make it 5.5 even.
OG 1072 at 83F (corrects to 1075)
FG 1004 at 72F (corrects to 1005)-- Surprised here, because my calc'd FG was 1012...

9.1% ABV (tastes/feels right but I do not have a refractometer)

Day 34 – racked and bottled: 120gms corn sugar in 1c water.

edit: spelling

 

[Falcon3]

I can't speak to exactly what's going on but I see a few problems.

1- adding 2 gallons boiling water to 3.75 gallons strike water to bring up temp- it's possible that you "scorched" some of the grain before the water got all mixed in to get to a stable temp. Also, having your mash temp all over from 155 to 140's up to 160's is not a recipe for success.

I'm guessing you didn't do much in the way of water treatment, which means that your PH was probably not in the optimal place.

Dry Hop- You probably dry hopped too long- 25 days is forever for dry hopping- dry hopping warm you generally want to keep it at 7 days or under (some say 10 and under). Most of your hop aroma extraction will actually happen in the first 24 hours if the wort is at ferm temp.

I've had the same phenomena as you're describing with the hops disappearing. I still don't know for sure, but I believe it was that my mash and final beer PH was not in the right spot for tasting good. While the beer was still "young" I could taste the hops, but I believe that the hop oils were attached to the suspended yeast. As the beer aged out, and the yeast dropped, it took the hop aroma and flavor with it.

It's all learning, and I can't say for sure what changed my problem (that was the same as the problem you're describing), but when I started figuring out water chemistry, my beer improved a ton.

Just as an aside...why use a Saison yeast for a clone of an American IPA?

 

[duboman]

Without a true description of what you are tasting it is difficult to help but I can tell you this: An infected beer in most cases will develop a sour taste. With the duration and amount of time you dry hopped it is also quite possible you have developed a grassy taste to the beer which can occur.

Personally I like to dry hop with a minimum of 3 oz of hops and for a period of 5-7 days. Sometimes I will dry hop once for 3-5 days , remove and repeat. Keep in mind hop aroma and flavor is quite volatile and will dissipate quickly, that is why hopped beers are best fresh.

Oxidation or wet cardboard/sherry like flavors can be an issue as well associated with the introduction of o2 during the racking/bottling/packaging process.

Perhaps by reading this documant you can narrow down what you taste and seek a solution.: http://www.beerjudgeschool.com/uploads/Beer_Characteristics_Flash_Cards.pdf

 

[docmullen]

Just as an aside...why use a Saison yeast for a clone of an American IPA?

so I may completely offend the purists here, but I was seeking the spiciness of that yeast/type. I'm mixing and matching not necessarily for a true clone (obviously), but for things I've had in the past that I really enjoyed.

interesting about the dry-hopping- i'm relatively new to that, and didn't realize that shorter is better. you remove the hops just by racking?
and, what's a good water testing kit?

 

[novahokie09]

Could it be the 3711? It's a saison yeast, so it could be a phenolic taste you're tasting.

 

[duboman]

so I may completely offend the purists here, but I was seeking the spiciness of that yeast/type. I'm mixing and matching not necessarily for a true clone (obviously), but for things I've had in the past that I really enjoyed.

interesting about the dry-hopping- i'm relatively new to that, and didn't realize that shorter is better. you remove the hops just by racking?
and, what's a good water testing kit?

shorter is not necessarily better but going more than 10-14 days is over kill and there is no problem mixing yeast although one strain may overpower the other so true control goes out the window.

As for racking, yes, place a hop bag over the racking cane to act as a filter if you elect to toss the hops in, otherwise you can add them in a sanitized muslin bag to contain.

For water, you'd be best off sending a sample to Ward Labs, IIRC it's test #5 for close to $30.00 but it will be the best money spent and they will tell you everything yo need to know about your water

 

[goovaerl92]

I had a similar issue involving dry hopping too long...ended up keeping the beer on the hops for around 10 days and even that produced a really strong vegetal flavor It does slowly go away with age, however.

And I do agree that it could be phenolics from the saison yeast as well. As with most beer related issues, time cures all!

 

[docmullen]

Could it be the 3711? It's a saison yeast, so it could be a phenolic taste you're tasting.

first time i used it (slightly different recipe) the flavor started very similar, but stayed with the beer (took me about 2 months to drink it all).

the change in this beer happened literally over a 2-day period- when I got back, I drank one and the beer was different...