Nearing AG move...need advice

[hops2it]

I'm gearing up for my first AG effort and I want to get opinions on where I stand and what equipment additions would make life easier at this point. I will say I'm not interested in pumps at this time. Here's my current list of equipment:

-10.5 gallon s/s pot with 1/2" s/s ball valve and Blichman thermometer
-5 gallon aluminum pot
-1/2" OD copper immersion chiller recently completed
-Bayou single stand burner (2 ft height?)
-Rectangular cooler mash tun not yet purchased/completed
-4 fermenting buckets
-1 bottling bucket w/ spigot

Was figuring on around a 50qt rectangular cooler with copper manifold not yet purchased/fabricated, open to changes if recommended otherwise. I bottle all my beer and typically only doing 5 to 5.5 gallon batches. Here's the main question with all this in mind...

What ELSE do you recommend? Should I be using the kettle for a HLT or should I get something like an upright cooler for heat retention purposes? I feel like I'm still missing something here. I'm trying to think about how to make things the easiest when it comes to adding mash water, then sparge water, then mashout water...just seems like a lot of different water at varying temps to be juggling with my current equipment. There's gotta be a way to streamline this so it's less hectic. Also may be worth mentioning that I was planning to batch sparge.

Thanks for any opinions.

 

[Mysticmead]

take a look into BIAB..no MLT or HLT needed.. that 10.5 gallon kettle would be perfect. just add a grain bag made from voile (local fabric store will carry it) or even the large paint strainers from home depot.

 

[Jud]

Sam's club has Igloo 60qt Cube for $29

 

[Johnvodka]

Well I must say your well equipped . I recently converted myself however I went the simple route with 5 gallon igloo coolers. The beer is beautiful and the process is very enjoyable . Cheers :mrgreen :

 

[Johnvodka]

Well I must say your well equipped . I recently converted myself however I went the simple route with 5 gallon igloo coolers. The beer is beautiful and the process is very enjoyable . Cheers :mrgreen:

 

[emjay]

I used a 5gal cooler before as well. Many of my beers were only partial mash since it can only really hold smaller grain bills.

The cooler that would suit you well and is also really the BEST you can possibly get is a 50 quart Coleman Xtreme Ultimate.

You may have heard of or seen Coleman Xtreme coolers before, and I'd recommend any of them as they're all fantastic, but the "Ultimate" range of these coolers are even better, and even better insulated than the regular ones. They're rated in terms of their ability to hold ice at 90°F - the regular ones can keep ice for 5 days, while the ultimates can do 6. This is a 20% improvement in how long ice will last, which requires more than simply just a 20% increase in insulation. The ability of it to hold a steady temperature is unmatched among vessels practical for homebrewing.

What's more, the Ultimates are available in exactly a 50 quart size (ranging up to 100 quarts), as you indicated you were planning to get. 50 quarts is a really good size - assuming a typical water:grist ratio of 1.25q/lb, you can fit up to 30lbs of grain. This means (with a conservative estimate of 70% efficiency) that you can make 5 gallon batches yielding an OG up to 1.148, and if you decide to make 10 gallon batches, up to 1.074. If you think you might want to make some 10gal batches, you need to consider if you REALLY want 10 gallons of a beer strong enough to have an OG of 1.074, because going bigger to futureproof and save yourself some money is nice, but if you're not planning to exceed that capacity very much, it doesn't make a ton of sense; too much empty "air space" is bad for temp control, and should be minimized if possible, and if you DO run into the odd time you want to make such strong 10gal batches, then there are a number of other ways to manage, which are probably a better idea if you only do so rarely (e.g. a thicker mash, replacing a bit of the base grain with DME, etc.)

And as an added bonus, the 50 quart version of the Coleman Xtreme Ultimate comes with wheels. Which really shouldn't even be much of a consideration when shopping for a mash tun, but since it's already the best cooler on the market, I just consider it to be the cherry on top. It might not sound like it matters at all, but it's a nice, convenient feature to have, especially when you're worn out after a long brew day, and makes it much easier to move when filled with water, if for some reason you have to, as it can be well over 100lbs when it is.

 

[Mysticmead]

Well I must say your well equipped .:

that's what she said!

 

[heckels]

I think emjay owns a few shares of coleman stock, haha.

 

[emjay]

I think emjay owns a few shares of coleman stock, haha.

Majority stakeholder

 

[Boleslaus]

So if a 50 qt. cooler can mash up to 1.148, how small could you use and easily make 5 gallon batchces up to around 1.09?

 

[flabyboy]

I use a spare cooler as my HLT and it works great. One of the most important pieces to have is an ACCURATE thermometer. I use the CDN ProAccurate and it is accurate +- 1degree F

 

[emjay]

So if a 50 qt. cooler can mash up to 1.148, how small could you use and easily make 5 gallon batchces up to around 1.09?

Anything over 30 quarts

 

[Wakadaka]

An accurate digital thermometer, clear volume graduations on your BK, possibly a refractometer if you've got the cash to spend.

What length is your IC? And what temperature is your water that will be running through it? You could consider buying a pre-chiller, or if your current IC is less than 50 foot you could get a new IC and use your current one as a pre chiller. Not necessarily needed for AG specifically, but it would make your life easier.

Main things are going to be a good thermometer and way to measure volume. And good homebrew to drink while brewing, can't forget that.

 

[hops2it]

An accurate digital thermometer, clear volume graduations on your BK, possibly a refractometer if you've got the cash to spend.

What length is your IC? And what temperature is your water that will be running through it? You could consider buying a pre-chiller, or if your current IC is less than 50 foot you could get a new IC and use your current one as a pre chiller. Not necessarily needed for AG specifically, but it would make your life easier.

Main things are going to be a good thermometer and way to measure volume. And good homebrew to drink while brewing, can't forget that.

50 ft and it cools like a champ. About 12 minutes to pitching temp first time using it. I do have a Fisher Scientific instant read digital thermo that works very well. I'm with you though about volume measurement. I think that's my Achilles heel. Can't decide whether to add one to my s/s boil kettle and also use it for a HLT also or whether to get a 5 gallon upright Igloo cooler (the orange beverage coolers) and add a thermo, ball valve and graduated sight tube to that. Therein lies my quandary. Really if I use my s/s pot, I have an hour during mash rest to get sparge water ready so I figured I could use it again then do mashout water in a smaller pan on the stovetop. BUT, it might be more handy to have the sparge water ready and waiting in an insulated HLT instead? This is primarily where I need some input. The electric coil beverage cooler DIY looks like the bees knees, I've been contemplating that as a maybe.

 

[Denny]

If you batch sparge, you don't need a separate "storage" container for a HLT. I have a converted keg to boil in and 7 gal. AL kettle to heat water. I heat water for the mash and add it to my cooler mash tun. After the mash, while it's running off, I use the AL kettle again to heat the sparge water. I add that and run it off into the converted keg and I'm ready to boil. If yo fly sparge you do need a HLT, but I'm a committed batch sparger. Among the many things I prefer about batch sparging is the need for less equipment. I've been using the same cooler and hose braid for 13 years and I just did my 400th batch with it. You can see all my stuff and read about my method at www.dennybrew.com. Here's a pic of my equipment...

 

[hops2it]

Very helpful Denny. Thanks for the thoughts and the pic. I plan to batch sparge and further, I'm planning to try your method of batch sparging. Sounds simple and to the point and it appears you have a few batches to validate the procedure.

I might also ask what method you use to hit your mash temp. Something tells me you have a repeatable system worked out.

 

[Denny]

I use Promash to calculate temps. I don't preheat the cooler. I just took a few batches where i didn't worry too much about exact temps to figure out how much hotter I needed to make the water if I didn't preheat. To me, preheating was one more time wasting step I didn't need. I measure my grain temp, plug it into Promash, and go. I keep a bowl of ice cubes at hand in case I'm too hot, but I almost never need them.

 

[hops2it]

How far over the predicted temp do you go typically? I realize it could vary somewhat but just curious how much you tend to lose to the cooler itself.

 

[Denny]

Generally, 13-15F above mash temp gets me where I need to be.

 

[Pappers_]

I'm like Denny, I batch sparge and don't need/use a HLT. I drain the mash into our 12 gallon brew kettle. I use another stockpot from our kitchen to heat the sparge water. Simple, no fuss or muss. You can see photos of my brewing 'stuff' at http://www.singingboysbrewing.com/about.html

For the mash temps, I use Beersmith. It takes into account my equipment, and mass of the grain, etc. and is amazingly accurate. It tells me how much volume of water at a precise temperature to add to hit the mash temperature target - i.e. "add 15.25 quarts of 168.4 F water to the mash" If I do what it tells me, I hit my target every time. I round off the directions to the nearest whole number.

edit: I pre-heat my mash tun by adding some hot water to it while I'm grinding the grain. Before I add the grain, I toss out the hot water.

 

[scottland]

Keep it simple. Any cooler over 40QT will do just fine. The Coleman extreme's are nice if you can get a good deal. Otherwise, any 40QT+ cooler with a spigot will work just fine.

You can certainly make a copper manifold, but using CPVC is much easier. Either will work great, and last a long, long time. I have 40+ batches in my igloo cooler with a CPVC manifold, and they have lots and lots of life left.

 

[ChemE]

...I'm with you though about volume measurement. I think that's my Achilles heel. Can't decide whether to add one to my s/s boil kettle and also use it for a HLT also or whether to get a 5 gallon upright Igloo cooler (the orange beverage coolers) and add a thermo, ball valve and graduated sight tube to that. Therein lies my quandary...

I highly recommend you take a look at my write up on graduating a carboy to shield your Achilles heel and you might take a look at my MLT write up too. I consistently get brewhouse efficiencies in the low 90s even with fairly big beers. I did an oatmeal stout Saturday with an OG of 1.065 and got 92% brewhouse. For me it works great and doesn't take up much space in my garage where space is at a premium. You'll enjoy the move to AG, its a blast and the control you gain is priceless.

 

[hops2it]

For the mash temps, I use Beersmith. It takes into account my equipment, and mass of the grain, etc. and is amazingly accurate. It tells me how much volume of water at a precise temperature to add to hit the mash temperature target - i.e. "add 15.25 quarts of 168.4 F water to the mash" If I do what it tells me, I hit my target every time. I round off the directions to the nearest whole number.

edit: I pre-heat my mash tun by adding some hot water to it while I'm grinding the grain. Before I add the grain, I toss out the hot water.

So when you heat strike water are you heating the exact amount you need then per Beersmith or some extra just in case you come in low on mash temp?

Also, how much hot water do you add to your mash tun for preheating purposes and is it a particular temp each time? Seems like if you're nailing it with an exact amount of strike water everytime, you'd have to be pretty constant on all factors.

 

[hops2it]

I highly recommend you take a look at my write up on graduating a carboy to shield your Achilles heel and you might take a look at my MLT write up too.

Enjoyed your writeups very much. I do have my fermenting buckets calibrated by way of a 250 mL graduated cylinder but I'm looking more at gauging how much strike water I'm adding and that water's coming from a direct fired s/s kettle with thermo and ball valve/transfer hose. I feel like I need to know how much I've added to the mash tun to achieve the proper temp. Because if I go with Beersmith's estimated amount, what if it's not exactly right? I kind of figured I'd want some extra water in my transfer kettle just in case. But I need to know when to stop to keep near the Beersmith theoretical value. I figured if I stopped a little before I reached that volume, I could check for temp just in case I'm already on temp by then. If not, I'd add more water to bring the temp up some more figuring I'd be in the ballpark of the 1.25 qt/lb I set out for while actually checking the temp as I get close. If I'm a little off that's ok, I'd rather have the temp nailed perfectly. That's why I keep feeling like I need a graduated sight tube up front...so I know when to stop/mash/check without overshooting the temp.

 

[emjay]

I'd be fairly uncertain when my mash tun is fully preheated. So I don't do it. Also, it's just more convenient not to.

I use BeerSmith as well, and let it adjust the strike temps based on my equipment.

It's REALLY important to use the right information if you do so though. For instance, with my first mash tun (round 5gal cooler), I estimated the weight at 5 pounds, and was wondering why I was always mashing in too low by several degrees. Then one day, I decided to look up the actual weight of my cooler, and it turned out to be 7.5 pounds. I adjusted the weight in BeerSmith, and immediately started hitting all my temps *perfectly*. That extra 2.5 pounds of heat capacity made a fairly significant difference.

The formula is actually very simple, and the science pretty basic. You just need to make sure all your variables are accurate. Since it's as simple as that, and BeerSmith telling me to just warm up my strike water a few more degrees, I really don't see the point in preheating. Extra work, extra time, extra water, extra energy... even if it's not much, what's the point?

 

[hops2it]

The formula is actually very simple, and the science pretty basic. You just need to make sure all your variables are accurate. Since it's as simple as that, and BeerSmith telling me to just warm up my strike water a few more degrees, I really don't see the point in preheating. Extra work, extra time, extra water, extra energy... even if it's not much, what's the point?

Do you heat the exact amount of water it recommends then, no more no less?

Also, I'm looking at Beersmith right now and I see the weight of the cooler. I can handle that one but what about "dead space", did you adjust for that? Is that the displacement factor caused by my soon to be manifold? If so, how do you go about calculating that?

 

[Mysticmead]

the dead space is normally the area under a false bottom..

 

[emjay]

I'm on my phone right now, but if I remember correctly, dead space is really the space within your system that holds liquid not able to be fully transferred to the boil kettle. In other words, it's the volume of water going in, that's not able to come out, other than what's been absorbed by the grain. This is often thought of as the part of the MLT which is below the valve (or the diptube, if you have one), but can also include any liquid in hoses, pumps, etc, that don't make it into your kettle.

As for the volume of water I use, I always heat a bit extra, because **** happens (other than missing my temps ). But I use sight gauges and my volumes are easy to hit, so I see no reason not to. If they weren't, I'd probably heat up the exact amount, or just a small amount more that is very easy to measure and set aside.

 

[jbsg02]

I just made the leap to all grain. I bought a 10 gallon round cooler from Lowes, and a ball valve and and false bottom from austin homebrew

 

[EROK]

My vote is for about 4 used corny kegs and a keezer/fridge w/about 3-4 taps !!

 

[EROK]

My vote is for getting about 4 corny kegs and a keezer w/3-4 tappers !!

 

[Johnvodka]

that's what she said!

Heyoooooooo!!!

 

[hops2it]

Well I got the cooler mash tun completed.

I used a Coleman Xtreme 5 from WalMart and wouldn't necessarily recommend this particular model because of its elevated outlet position (mine is the one with wheels). I might try to replumb the connection to drain to lower it somewhat. I end up with about 0.4 gallons of dead space due to the design. I ended up going with copper because I had some spare parts on hand but otherwise would probably have gone with cpvc as another poster mentioned.

Well, I think I'm ready to give it a shot now.

 

[Mysticmead]

Well I got the cooler mash tun completed.

I used a Coleman Xtreme 5 from WalMart and wouldn't necessarily recommend this particular model because of its elevated outlet position (mine is the one with wheels). I might try to replumb the connection to drain to lower it somewhat. I end up with about 0.4 gallons of dead space due to the design. I ended up going with copper because I had some spare parts on hand but otherwise would probably have gone with cpvc as another poster mentioned.

Well, I think I'm ready to give it a shot now.

flip the manifold over so slots are down

 

[hops2it]

flip the manifold over so slots are down

I'll do that, just showing the slots for the pic.

Also, just got Beersmith 2.0 installed and I have some questions about the equipment portion as it relates to the mash tun:

1.) Should I use one of the default setups even though it doesn't really reflect my setup or make my own? I have a 10.5 gallon s/s pot and a 10 gallon cooler but I'm only making 5-6 gallon batches.

2.) How important is the cooler weight? Do I just weight it as is, or do I need to take the valve/manifold/etc out of there to weight just the bare cooler?

3.) What's the difference between "loss to trub chiller", "fermentor loss", and dead space? Seems like they're all getting at the same thing.

 

[JuanMoore]

1.) Should I use one of the default setups even though it doesn't really reflect my setup or make my own? I have a 10.5 gallon s/s pot and a 10 gallon cooler but I'm only making 5-6 gallon batches.

Your choice. Creating your own will be more accurate, but you can probably get pretty close using one of the default ones. I think one of the defaults is a 10 gal BK and 10 gal cooler, so you could use that and then uncheck the "base volumes on my equipment" box.

2.) How important is the cooler weight? Do I just weight it as is, or do I need to take the valve/manifold/etc out of there to weight just the bare cooler?

The cooler weight is asked to determine how much of the strike water heat will be lost when it's added to the cooler. If you don't pre-heat your mash tun and are relying on the brewsmith strike temp numbers then it's pretty important. If you pre-heat the tun or don't rely on the program for your strike temp then it doesn't really matter. Since the manifold is part of the thermal mass that will be sucking up heat, you need to leave it in for the weight.

3.) What's the difference between "loss to trub chiller", "fermentor loss", and dead space? Seems like they're all getting at the same thing.

They're all volume losses, but that does not mean they're the same thing. For example, compare a beer brewed on a system with 1 gal deadspace in my MLT and 1 cup lost to trub at the end of the boil, to one brewed with 1 cup of MLT deadspace and 1 gal lost to trub. Even though the end volumes would be the same they would be different beers.

 

[marcycaulkins]

With the cooler completed, I think you have all the basics in place. Go ahead, make some beer, then you will figure out what additional toys you want/need.

(my vote, though, if you don't already have one is a grain mill so you can buy your grains bulk and crush your own)

 

[hops2it]

They're all volume losses, but that does not mean they're the same thing. For example, compare a beer brewed on a system with 1 gal deadspace in my MLT and 1 cup lost to trub at the end of the boil, to one brewed with 1 cup of MLT deadspace and 1 gal lost to trub. Even though the end volumes would be the same they would be different beers.

Thanks for all the info. I guess I'm wondering how exactly to measure each of the loss types. I believe I've already correctly measured the dead space by filling above the manifold with water, then draining out until it stops and measuring the leftover volume. No idea how to calculate the other two losses the Beersmith accounts for though.

 

[SHOOK]

Well I got the cooler mash tun completed.

I used a Coleman Xtreme 5 from WalMart and wouldn't necessarily recommend this particular model because of its elevated outlet position (mine is the one with wheels). I might try to replumb the connection to drain to lower it somewhat. I end up with about 0.4 gallons of dead space due to the design. I ended up going with copper because I had some spare parts on hand but otherwise would probably have gone with cpvc as another poster mentioned.

Well, I think I'm ready to give it a shot now.

also another tip:

get some hightemp vinyl or silicone tubing and attach it to the drain.. that way you can use the siphon to suck up the wort since your outlet is higher then the manifold.

 

[hops2it]

also another tip:

get some hightemp vinyl or silicone tubing and attach it to the drain.. that way you can use the siphon to suck up the wort since your outlet is higher then the manifold.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying there but I'm interested to know. You mean ditch the copper connection to the drain port altogether and replace with soft tube from the inside of the cooler?