natural carbonation in a keg...

[coonmanx]

LOL. I go by what people tell me when they drink my keg. The last three kegs I have simply primed with malt extract, thrown them in the closet and then two weeks later we drink it. And some of the compliments I received about that Old Peculiar clone keg where along the lines of "you should bottle and sell this stuff". That is how spot on the beer turned out using this method. And I will never go back to force carbonation ever again. It's just a hassle. Not to mention that I have a 25 lb. tank of CO2 and when the guy at the homebrew shop weighed it the other day he told me I probably have enough CO2 left for 30 kegs. LOL. Are people here seriously worried that there might be a half inch of air at the top of the keg when using this method because that seems a bit OCD. The proof is as they say in the pudding, or in this case the proof is in the keg. And having one get consumed in 3 hours was all the proof I needed. It was a smash hit. One of the best batches I have made in over 30 years.

 

[McKnuckle]

@coonmanx How many of your buddies in Colorado have actually tasted Old Peculier? It's not a beer that's easily found in the U.S. I had my first pint of it at the Theakston brewery in Masham. Just a wonderful beer, but darn tricky to reproduce. I have tried a couple of times.

If you have an inch of air in the keg but drink all the beer in 3 hours, you're not going to experience oxidation. But slow down the consumption by a few weeks, and/or brew a more delicate style like a pilsner or hoppy pale ale, and it'll come back to bite you.

Would love to know with O.P. recipe you brewed, but that's off topic!

 

[Bassman2003]

Big syringe. Apply few lbs of co2 pressure to fermentation purged keg, unscrew PRV, inject sugar solution, put PRV back in, disconnect co2, relieve excess co2 pressure, rack beer through liquid port.

when full I hit it with 30 psi and either leave it at room temp if ale, or put in fridge if lager. Couple days later bring it down to lager temps.

I used to verify pressure was building as expected but I’ve gotten better with my process to where I don’t even need a spund valve. I just seal it up.

Thanks I missed this reply. I think I will look at altering my ale procedure for some styles. Just had a tripel fall on its face once in the spunding keg. Although Bryan's idea of shooting the sugar into the fermenter seems like the easiest way to go.

 

[schematix]

Thanks I missed this reply. I think I will look at altering my ale procedure for some styles. Just had a tripel fall on its face once in the spunding keg. Although Bryan's idea of shooting the sugar into the fermenter seems like the easiest way to go.

Yah there's more than one way to do it. The syringe is pretty easy when you're racking. But with beer in there already you're definitely at risk for a big mess.

 

[Bassman2003]

I don't know if you saw my post over on the LOB forum but I did get a big mess be trying to add sugar to a partially carbonated keg. I like your approach of letting ales finish out and adding sugar. Nice way to avoid catching the timing just right and it is very easy to shoot the sugar through the fermenter airlock hole.

 

[gunhaus]

.
I would recommend you dose the fermenter and wait a little bit, then rack the whole thing over. Better protection

Yea along with the oxidation with it as well. I don't want to hear you never noticed a difference and all the rest of the blah blah folks say. It's proven science you are oxidizing your beer this way.



10 points is wayy too much and will most likely cause staling of the yeast. 3-4 points is all that is needed. When that happens a spunding valve is not needed.

I am somewhat confused here. You are saying that if I ferment in a sealed SS vessel, do a closed transfer to a naturally purged sealed keg, and attach my CO2 tank at 12 psi for a week to ten days and then serve, I have now oxidized my beer? And you have indisputable irrefutable scientific evidence to back that up?

 

[Die_Beerery]

I am somewhat confused here. You are saying that if I ferment in a sealed SS vessel, do a closed transfer to a naturally purged sealed keg, and attach my CO2 tank at 12 psi for a week to ten days and then serve, I have now oxidized my beer? And you have indisputable irrefutable scientific evidence to back that up?

Yup.

 

[gunhaus]

Yup.

Prove it

 

[Die_Beerery]

Prove it

As you wish.

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/beer-serving-oxygen-ingress/

 

[Bassman2003]

I am somewhat confused here. You are saying that if I ferment in a sealed SS vessel, do a closed transfer to a naturally purged sealed keg, and attach my CO2 tank at 12 psi for a week to ten days and then serve, I have now oxidized my beer? And you have indisputable irrefutable scientific evidence to back that up?

The bottled CO2 is made up of a small % of oxygen. So while this amount of oxygenation is a lot lower than an open transfer, it will oxidize the beer over a few weeks. Bear in mind that we are talking about flavor differences which are subjective.

Natural carbonation creates CO2 that is 100% clear of O2. Plus the yeast activity eats any remaining O2 around as insurance. Bryan's technique which I mentioned is this:

Ferment
Right at terminal gravity inject sugar (and yeast if wanted).
Let sit for a few hours*
Close transfer to sanitizer purged keg.
Monitor with spunding valve to set desired volume of carbonation.

*Waiting for yeast activity means the yeast will be active and eating any O2 introduced during the whole process. And carbonating with 100% pure CO2.

The total natural way to carbonate is to transfer the fermenting beer a little earlier so you are moving the active yeast over to your keg where they will finish out the beer AND carbonate it at the same time. This is often referred to as spunding since a "spunding" valve is used to monitor the gas pressure.

It is a cool and natural process that retains aromatics and flavor in the beer. Just from a process tweak.

 

[gunhaus]

As you wish.

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/beer-serving-oxygen-ingress/

Yes thank you - I have in the past read the sermons from the church of LODO, but it is always good to review them. Nonetheless: I was not requesting mathematical justification for the viewpoint that ONLY natural carbonation is acceptable process. I was seeking that indisputable irrefutable PROOF that you possess that clearly demonstrates that I CAN TASTE THE DIFFERENCE. You very clearly stated this is FACT and you have proof. Now I admit to being a neophyte! I have only been brewing since 1985, and have been kegging since 89 or 90. And I have and do naturally carb a number of brews and have four such out there in the shop perking along right now. I don't actually know how much beer I have made, but I do brew almost weekly and pretty well have since around 94 or so. So it is probably a few gallons. And I can say that I REALLY don't see spit for difference in perceived oxidation between natural and forced carb. I sense a difference in mouthfeel. AND, I find an acid bite somewhat noticeable in some styles when forced - That really fades and disappears by week two. But oxidation? Sorry Bubba. Just not feeling it. I am sorry you don't want to hear the blah blah - but until you produce that PROOF of what I AM TASTING - is is just so much Blah blah blah to my ears.

NOW - I do not dispute the math. Nor do I doubt your sincere interest in producing your best brew!!!What I dispute was the rather aggressive assertion that YOU KNOW what everyone else is tasting when they drink. And the not so veiled assertion that anyone who disagrees with you is lying.

 

[Bassman2003]

Obviously, Die Beerery can speak for himself. But, I would ask if you have created wort with a low oxygen process to match with the natural or forced carbonation? For me, the difference is only there IF the wort was made in a way that protected the very flavors that go away in oxidation. I don't want to turn this into a LODO battle, but this thread is about naturally carbonating a keg.

I have been brewing hefeweizen for 15+ years. Tried all kinds of different techniques. Stumbled upon low oxygen a year or two ago and slowly incorporated the process. I started with just the natural carbonation, then moved to only pre-boiling brew water, then to the whole process. The hefes were always good, but lacking compared to the beers I had in Germany. The first batch I made with only the pre-boiling suddenly had some of the flavor that was missing. A fresh malt flavor. Once I incorporated the rest the beers are much brighter along with a lot of aromatic quality.

All of this to say - try it. Seasoned brewers should notice the positive changes right away. It may be a point of argument but Low OX does seriously improve beers. But it is a two part process, hot side & cold side together.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Now hold up, your bias is showing.

You stated:
"I am somewhat confused here. You are saying that if I ferment in a sealed SS vessel, do a closed transfer to a naturally purged sealed keg, and attach my CO2 tank at 12 psi for a week to ten days and then serve, I have now oxidized my beer? And you have indisputable irrefutable scientific evidence to back that up?"

I then showed you said scientific evidence. Based on... Scientific evidence, and backed up via cited sources.

Then you say a bunch of nonsensical biased stuff about taste, and your impression that just because you do something for a long time its right, or its good. Nothing scientific at all, and all about your preference.

Then you say:
"NOW - I do not dispute the math."

So, you asked for the science, I provided the science, you believe the science, then you spin this about taste, to bypass the fact you were wrong about the science? Did I miss something?

Never once did I bring in taste to this, as taste is SUBJECTIVE, you did, when you lost about the science. I don't talk in subjective, I talk in science. Checkmate.

 

[doug293cz]

Ok, this thread has moved quite a ways from the OP's original question. Time to stop arguing about LoDO here - we have a dedicated sub-forum for those discussions. Any further LoDO discussion will be removed from this thread.

doug293cz
HBT Moderator

 

[ChiknNutz]

Get a SPUNDit. Excellent, purpose-built, well-engineered product from a private seller on Ebay who makes them.

I am looking into this...do you ever use the auxiliary port, back of the gauge?