Nailing carbonation

[HItransplant]

Im trying to figure out this bottle conditioning thing and I know I'll get better with practice but thought it wouldn't hurt to ask my questions...here goes.

My last two batches have been over and then slightly under carbed, respectively. In both cases, however, the carbonation didnt seem to last like I would expect.

Is this normal for bottle conditioned beer?

Or, what can I change to improve this quality in my beer?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

 

[MalFet]

Need more input, Johnny-5. How are you priming? How much sugar? Bulk or tabs? How are you storing it after? How long are you storing it?

 

[HItransplant]

Need more input, Johnny-5. How are you priming? How much sugar? Bulk or tabs? How are you storing it after? How long are you storing it?

Sorry, thought I could get away w being more general.

I primed both batches w DME (bulk). The batch that was over carbed was primed for 5 gal (using tastybrew.com) but only ended up yielding 4.5gal...it still goes flat faster than I drink it, and I don't nurse my beers. My comparison, however, is commercial beer.

The last brew seems just right or slightly under-carbed, but still goes flat before I finish it. Also DME primed.

Both sat in 68deg for at least 8 weeks so that's probably not the issue.

 

[kellynm]

How much DME are you using per 5 gal batch? The standard is 1 1/4 cups DME per 5 gallons...

 

[MalFet]

So they are relatively more carbed when you first pour them, but then go flat unusually fast, and this happens both for over-carbed and under-carbed beer? That's strange. The only thing that jumps to mind would be dissolved solids providing an excessive quantity of nucleation sites. Are you getting a good head when you pour?

The carb levels themselves make me think of two things: either you are using the wrong amount of sugar, or the sugar is not getting distributed evenly within the batch. Are the beers evenly over-carbed and under-carbed, or is there significant variation from bottle to bottle within the same batch? How are you calculating the amount of DME to use?

 

[HItransplant]

So they are relatively more carbed when you first pour them, but then go flat unusually fast, and this happens both for over-carbed and under-carbed beer? That's strange. The only thing that jumps to mind would be dissolved solids providing an excessive quantity of nucleation sites. Are you getting a good head when you pour?

The carb levels themselves make me think of two things: either you are using the wrong amount of sugar, or the sugar is not getting distributed evenly within the batch. Are the beers evenly over-carbed and under-carbed, or is there significant variation from bottle to bottle within the same batch? How are you calculating the amount of DME to use?

The stout (over-carbed) has a ridiculous head to the point of needing to take care while pouring...and this is the beer that goes flat quick.

I use tastybrew for calcs and I stir my beer after racking (gently of course), and the bottles are all the same.

The second beer may be slightly under carbed (small head)...which may acct for the flattening.

I guess my question really pertains to the stout.

Would using sugar vs DME make a difference?

 

[Revvy]

How long are you letting your beers carb and condition before you start drinking them, and at what temp are you storing them during this time?

It doesn't sound like you're giving them enough time for carbonation to actually lock in, before starting to drink them, hence either them losing carb fast or appearing to be over carbed....they haven't settled into being full locked in to the right carb level yet.

A lor of folks who prime with dme say it takes longer that the 3 weeks at 70 minimum we talk about. It can take as much as two or more weeks to get to that point.

 

[HItransplant]

How long are you letting your beers carb and condition before you start drinking them, and at what temp are you storing them during this time?

It doesn't sound like you're giving them enough time for carbonation to actually lock in, before starting to drink them, hence either them losing carb fast or appearing to be over carbed....they haven't settled into being full locked in to the right carb level yet.

Well, that may be true With the 2nd beer, but the stout is over 2 months in the bottle at 68...and stable since 6-7 weeks.

 

[HItransplant]

Where'd everybody go?

 

[HItransplant]

Anyone have any more suggestions...revvy?

 

[kable]

Where'd everybody go?

Maybe work

When calculating how much DME to use you have to specify a temp. I forget if its the temp it fermented at or if it is the current temp. Could this be a factor?

 

[theredben]

When calculating how much DME to use you have to specify a temp. I forget if its the temp it fermented at or if it is the current temp.

The liquid temperature when bottling.

 

[MalFet]

Maybe work

When calculating how much DME to use you have to specify a temp. I forget if its the temp it fermented at or if it is the current temp. Could this be a factor?

This is debated. The safest option would be to let the beer come to room temperature and bottle with that temp as a parameter.


To the OP: Are you cold crashing? What you are describing with your stout makes me think that the CO2 wasn't fully dissolved into solution. At the end of the day, though, two batches with very different outcomes is tough to use as a guide to identify problems. Try sugar next time, perhaps, and take good notes about quantities and temps.

 

[HItransplant]

Maybe work

When calculating how much DME to use you have to specify a temp. I forget if its the temp it fermented at or if it is the current temp. Could this be a factor?

Lol...touché. I'm on vacation with a new baby so I have no concept of time...but, you're probably right.

I bottle at room/conitioning temps, and I acct for the temp in my calcs on tastybrew.com

 

[HItransplant]

This is debated. The safest option would be to let the beer come to room temperature and bottle with that temp as a parameter.

To the OP: Are you cold crashing? What you are describing with your stout makes me think that the CO2 wasn't fully dissolved into solution. At the end of the day, though, two batches with very different outcomes is tough to use as a guide to identify problems. Try sugar next time, perhaps, and take good notes about quantities and temps.

I'm not cold crashing.

Revvy also mentioned the possibility of the co2 not being completely dissolved...but this beer has been bottled for over 2 months at conditioning temps.

Is there another factor that could affect co2 absorption...I use a bottling wand so I'm thinking my headspace isn't the issue?

Has anyone had this issue when bottling w DME bs sugar? If not, I don't know if that big of a change in my process will help me narrow the issue down.

I take great notes, just don't have them w me.

Thanks for helping me brainstorm exeryone.

 

[MalFet]

Have you ever had problems with previous batches before these two? Did anything change?

 

[HItransplant]

Have you ever had problems with previous batches before these two? Did anything change?

No, these were my 2nd and 3rd batches. First batch was a bit of a flop so it doesn't really count. It was also extract and the last two were AG.

I don't get to brew very often which is probably part of the problem.

 

[MalFet]

No, these were my 2nd and 3rd batches. First batch was a bit of a flop so it doesn't really count. It was also extract and the last two were AG.

I don't get to brew very often which is probably part of the problem.

Don't know what to tell you then, I'm afraid. You've got completely different problems in two different batches, and no previous data to contextualize things. Without numbers, there's not much to do but guess.

I'm not sure what the advantage of DME is. It's more expensive than corn sugar, and often takes longer to carb up. If you want to try something different, give that a shot. Otherwise, you might just need another batch as a data point.

 

[HItransplant]

Don't know what to tell you then, I'm afraid. You've got completely different problems in two different batches, and no previous data to contextualize things. Without numbers, there's not much to do but guess.

I'm not sure what the advantage of DME is. It's more expensive than corn sugar, and often takes longer to carb up. If you want to try something different, give that a shot. Otherwise, you might just need another batch as a data point.

Well like I said, I shouldn't have even mentioned the second batch since my question was really about the over carbed stout...and/or more generally about why a beer would pour w a giant crazy head and a very fizzy mouthfeel, but then flatten out abnormally quickly.

Thanks for the help mallet...anyone else have this experience? Other suggestions?

 

[MalFet]

Well like I said, I shouldn't have even mentioned the second batch since my question was really about the over carbed stout...and/or more generally about why a beer would pour w a giant crazy head and a very fizzy mouthfeel, but then flatten out abnormally quickly.

Thanks for the help mallet...anyone else have this experience? Other suggestions?

Who you callin' mallet, mallet?

In that case, if they're separate issues, they're both explicable. Stouts get thick heads sometimes, just from all the roast I guess. If something foams like crazy at pour, that means there's less CO2 to have in the beer. I'm not a big stout drinker so I can't really give a ton of advice on how to fix this, but I don't think there was anything necessarily wrong with the carbonation per se. It might just be high proportions of dissolved solids causing excessive nucleation, which will gradually settle down over a few months.

 

[jldc]

Carbonation shouldn't really be that hard:

- Use the correct amount of sugar/DME
- Get it mixed correctly (ie the same amt of sugar/DME in each bottle)
- Have healthy yeast in the beer
- Wait long enough at the correct temp for carbonation

IMO that's about it.

I personally haven't carbed with DME, but I can't imagine it's that different than corn sugar. My only advice in addition to what's already been said is to gently stir the beer several times during bottling. Once after siphoning and adding the priming sugar, and once or twice during bottling. As long as you aren't splashing, you aren't introducing oxygen. Also, be sure the beer is sitting at 70+ degrees, not in a 60 degree basement.

That's all I have.
Good luck.

 

[HItransplant]

Who you callin' mallet, mallet?

In that case, if they're separate issues, they're both explicable. Stouts get thick heads sometimes, just from all the roast I guess. If something foams like crazy at pour, that means there's less CO2 to have in the beer. I'm not a big stout drinker so I can't really give a ton of advice on how to fix this, but I don't think there was anything necessarily wrong with the carbonation per se. It might just be high proportions of dissolved solids causing excessive nucleation, which will gradually settle down over a few months.

Haha....sorry, iPhone spellcheck strikes again.

The solids would explain the head but what about the fizzy mouthfeel?

 

[MalFet]

Haha....sorry, iPhone spellcheck strikes again.

The solids would explain the head but what about the fizzy mouthfeel?

Solids just cause the co2 to come out of solution more quickly than they otherwise would. That means you'll get a big head and fizzy beer for a short time, and but then flat beer when all the co2 goes away. This is just straws in the wind...I'm not sure that's really what is happening here, but it would be a consistent explanation.

 

[unionrdr]

I know this may not help much,but I thought I'd throw in my 2c. My 1st batch was the OS lager kit they gave me with my micro brew kit. With the ale yeast provided,I got an English pale ale sort of brew,the malt forward ones.
Anyway,I used the sucrose "lollies" as they call them (3g sugar pills). According to them,it's one pill per 12-16oz bottle. 2 pills per 25oz bottle. They basically recommend 8g/liter to prime.
My beer came out as in my avatar. Carbonation on the inside of the glass,carbonation to the last gulp. It got that way from 3 weeks aging in the bottles at 70F,3-5 days in the fridge. That'll clear up the chill haze that comes in as soon as it cools down.
The beer had only a slight haze when bottled. 3 weeks later,clear as crystal. Hope that gives some insights...

 

[HItransplant]

Solids just cause the co2 to come out of solution more quickly than they otherwise would. That means you'll get a big head and fizzy beer for a short time, and but then flat beer when all the co2 goes away. This is just straws in the wind...I'm not sure that's really what is happening here, but it would be a consistent explanation.

That actually sounds spot on...how does one fix this?

 

[HItransplant]

Solids just cause the co2 to come out of solution more quickly than they otherwise would. That means you'll get a big head and fizzy beer for a short time, and but then flat beer when all the co2 goes away. This is just straws in the wind...I'm not sure that's really what is happening here, but it would be a consistent explanation.

Can anyone suggest a way to solve this issue of dissolved solids?

Is it a recipe issue or process issue?

 

[MalFet]

Can anyone suggest a way to solve this issue of dissolved solids?

Is it a recipe issue or process issue?

If you are still burning through the carbonation too quickly, I very much doubt that the issue is suspended solids. Typically those would fall to the bottom of the bottle relatively quickly and cease to provide nucleation, at least in my experience.