More Brew in a Bag (BIAB) Success

[adamjab19]

For you other BIABers out there, do you find any temperature difference between different parts of the kettle during mashing? I find there's a difference of several degrees between the water and the grain, as the grain tends to settle at the bottom - and there's just too much of it to keep it all stirred up for 60 minutes. When the water's at 148 or so, the grain itself can be 153 or more, and I'm not sure which one best indicates what's actually happening in the mash. I ask as I've found my last couple of beers to be a little thin. I'd assumed that the grain temp would be the temp to keep an eye on, but I wonder whether the water temp is the more important. Has anyone else found this?

I stir for a good 10 minutes when first putting the grain in. I lift from the bottom to the top constantly. I have never checked to see if there is a difference between water and grain temp. though. But I have noticed that if you do not stir regularly while ramping to mash out the bottom grains can get quite hot until you completely stir them with the other grains. So yes there are some definite hot spots while heating. During mash I leave my probe thermometer in the grain and I don't loose too much during that process. Since I have been brewing inside for the winter months I throw the pot of grains and water into a warm stove and don't even lose a degree! Now my back after humping those grains from stove top to stove and back...ouch!

 

[lustreking]

For you other BIABers out there, do you find any temperature difference between different parts of the kettle during mashing? I find there's a difference of several degrees between the water and the grain, as the grain tends to settle at the bottom - and there's just too much of it to keep it all stirred up for 60 minutes.

Hmmm.. I never really noticed it, in fact, I've never measured below the top 3 inches or so. When I'm taking the temperature, which I do several times throughout the mash, I'm thoroughly stirring it though.

My mash is a little thicker than the "traditional" BiaB mash, though it's still much thinner than I would use when batch sparging in my cooler.

I'm in the process of building a small HERMS chamber. It would be interesting to use it with my BiaB "system."

 

[lamarguy]

For you other BIABers out there, do you find any temperature difference between different parts of the kettle during mashing?

I did....until I purchased a pump to recirculate the mash water for better heat distribution. But, I do a three step mash (135F, 152F & 165F) with most of my beers making even heat distribution critical.

 

[mrcmatt]

Seriously -- I am very curious about this too. Even with a really fine grind and a thin mash, you would need to do a really long mash to get good conversion and extraction. Clearly you aren't lengthening your mash time to compensate.

All the conventional brewing wisdom I have read says that the maximum theoretical extraction rates you will get from no-sparge brewing is in the 65% range. How can you get above this theoretical maximum without a sparge? (Note that's extract efficiency, and not even brewhouse efficiency.)

Conventional wisdom is what you and others have learned from experience. If you hold on to conventional wisdom too tightly you'll miss out on the new things that are being figured out.

 

[mrcmatt]

For you other BIABers out there, do you find any temperature difference between different parts of the kettle during mashing? I find there's a difference of several degrees between the water and the grain, as the grain tends to settle at the bottom - and there's just too much of it to keep it all stirred up for 60 minutes. When the water's at 148 or so, the grain itself can be 153 or more, and I'm not sure which one best indicates what's actually happening in the mash. I ask as I've found my last couple of beers to be a little thin. I'd assumed that the grain temp would be the temp to keep an eye on, but I wonder whether the water temp is the more important. Has anyone else found this?

I have found big difference in temp in different spots. Stir it til your arm is tired.

 

[FlyGuy]

Conventional wisdom is what you and others have learned from experience. If you hold on to conventional wisdom too tightly you'll miss out on the new things that are being figured out.

I wasn't saying it couldn't be done. I am just curious why it works as well as some claim.

By all means, please explain (if you know).

 

[bigjoe]

Originally Posted by FlyGuy
All the conventional brewing wisdom I have read says that the maximum theoretical extraction rates you will get from no-sparge brewing is in the 65% range. How can you get above this theoretical maximum without a sparge? (Note that's extract efficiency, and not even brewhouse efficiency.)

FlyGuy the reading I've done on it would suggest the fact there is more water availible to the enzymes than there is in a mash that has the sugars more conecntrated. Essential the enzymes and sugar are competing for the water and there is more water availible in a BIAB.

Since the pH is constant through the mash the crush can be quite fine also. This also allows for quicker/easier conversion as opposed to a more coarse crush. However I have found that I don't need to grind my grist to powder, I can actually use the grind as I would for a traditional mash. I think the fact there is more water than in a traditional mash would expaln it. When I first started BIAB my grist had quite a lot of flour. Anymore I don't bother.

If you haven't given it a try you should. Its fairly easy and straight forward. There are far too many people having success with it for it to be a fluke. I'd give it a fair chance and try a few batches, but honestly there isn't a whole lot to go wrong. I have seen a few posts here or there about poor extraction, but those are few and far between.

The conventional wisdom I think many try to apply to this techique might be inaccurate. I've did about 15 batches in 2009 with this method. The worst efficiency I had was from a batch I used a 750ml bottle to crush my grain. I think Fix and Palmer mention 65% with no sprage brewing, but IIRC neither of them did a full volume mash did they?

 

[cooper]

FlyGuy the reading I've done on it would suggest the fact there is more water availible to the enzymes than there is in a mash that has the sugars more conecntrated. Essential the enzymes and sugar are competing for the water and there is more water availible in a BIAB.?

This is the first time I've heard of BIAB... Where do you get the bags? Can you do all of this in your regular 15gal brew pot? It makes sense to use all the water that you would need for a traditional mash/sparge all in one (to have more water for the enzymes and all) and mash at 150 for 60 mins and then 170 for 15-20 mins. Then all you would have to do is lift the bag, drain, and then start the boil? Is this right?

 

[mordantly]

can a keggle biab accomodate 34#?

 

[djt17]

I did my first AG (BIAB) on Sat. everything went great, I hit my target OG. I used Qbrew to calc my recipe; it was set to 75% efficiency & I am pretty sure of all volumes. Is this indicative of my Brewhouse efficiency?

 

[djt17]

This is the first time I've heard of BIAB... Where do you get the bags? Can you do all of this in your regular 15gal brew pot? It makes sense to use all the water that you would need for a traditional mash/sparge all in one (to have more water for the enzymes and all) and mash at 150 for 60 mins and then 170 for 15-20 mins. Then all you would have to do is lift the bag, drain, and then start the boil? Is this right?

That's the way I did it; but, once my temps hit 170, I pull the bag. ??? I am new at this. I purchased my bag at Home Depot (5 gal paint bags, next to the paint sprayers). The Aussies have been doing this for a long time. http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=11694

 

[mrcmatt]

I wasn't saying it couldn't be done. I am just curious why it works as well as some claim.

By all means, please explain (if you know).

I don't know the reason why, I just know that a lot of people have been very successful with BIAB. It seemed like you were hung up on your preconceptions and needed a push. but I certainly didn't mean it as a shove.

Also, I've noticed a good bit of disbelief when it comes to BIAB that seems to be less about the evidence of BIAB's ability to brew quality beer efficiently and more about some people's unwillingness to accept that there is a different (and maybe even easier) way to brew than the techniques they have mastered.

I'm not saying this is the case with anybody in particular, but that is where I was coming from.

When the same results are achieved over and and over, well, that's proof enough for me. I think bigJoe is on to something regarding the amount of water available to pull the sugar out and hold it until the grains are removed, but I really don't know the why of it.

Give it a try a time or two then decide for yourself.

 

[FlyGuy]

I don't know the reason why, I just know that a lot of people have been very successful with BIAB. It seemed like you were hung up on your preconceptions and needed a push. but I certainly didn't mean it as a shove.

Also, I've noticed a good bit of disbelief when it comes to BIAB that seems to be less about the evidence of BIAB's ability to brew quality beer efficiently and more about some people's unwillingness to accept that there is a different (and maybe even easier) way to brew than the techniques they have mastered.

I'm not saying this is the case with anybody in particular, but that is where I was coming from.

When the same results are achieved over and and over, well, that's proof enough for me. I think bigJoe is on to something regarding the amount of water available to pull the sugar out and hold it until the grains are removed, but I really don't know the why of it.

Give it a try a time or two then decide for yourself.

Perhaps I will, but honestly I have a system dialed in and I have very little motivation to want to start from scratch again. And frankly, I really don't appreciate your presumptuous and personally-aimed remarks that suggest I am some some sort of set-in-his ways, unreasonable person.

Out of curiosity, I questioned how people get above the efficiency limits suggested by conventional wisdom. My reason is that I have seen people make similar remarks about batch sparging that were not accurate, and many of us have now learned where the mistakes were made. I suspect similar lessons could be learned here, but if BIAB proponents get all hot under the collar every time someone asks a question, I guess we'll never get there. Sorta defeats the purpose of this forum, IMO.

 

[mrcmatt]

Perhaps I will, but honestly I have a system dialed in and I have very little motivation to want to start from scratch again. And frankly, I really don't appreciate your presumptuous and personally-aimed remarks that suggest I am some some sort of set-in-his ways, unreasonable person.

Out of curiosity, I questioned how people get above the efficiency limits suggested by conventional wisdom. My reason is that I have seen people make similar remarks about batch sparging that were not accurate, and many of us have now learned where the mistakes were made. I suspect similar lessons could be learned here, but if BIAB proponents get all hot under the collar every time someone asks a question, I guess we'll never get there. Sorta defeats the purpose of this forum, IMO.

I just checked and the temperature under my collar is just fine. My comments weren't meant as an attack on your personality. I mistook what you were saying - i thought you were dismissing BIAB brewers' claim of efficiency and BIAB process altogether. Evidently you were looking for more information on the process to help troubleshoot or correct mistakes you assume were made.

OK, my bad.

by the way, where are you getting your 65% figure as maximum extract efficiency? I find I get up to mid 70s personally and read all around about normal extract efficiency being in the 60 to 80 % range. for example
http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-4.html and http://hbd.org/uchima/tech/efficiency.html

 

[FlyGuy]

Evidently you were looking for more information on the process to help troubleshoot or correct mistakes you assume were made.

No, where I was coming from was this: people used to claim that batch sparging couldn't be as efficient as fly sparging. Since then, a bunch of other people proved them wrong. It turns out that the statement (still falsely believed by many people) was based on assumptions about how to batch sparge using fly sparge equipment and fly sparge techniques. In reality, batch spargers with efficient system can get HIGHER efficiencies than many fly spargers because they have an easier time limiting losses in the MLT, they can often crush finer because they don't worry about channelization or stuck mash, etc.

I am curious if people are exceeding the 'theoretical' limits on extraction efficiency because the underlying 'theory' is flawed. It would be interesting to know where the errors occur.

Oh, I also looked at the links you provided, but I am confused by what it is you want to correct me on. The figures you cite in those links all refer to efficiencies for fly sparged brews, not the typical extraction efficiencies for the no-sparge technique.

 

[HarkinBanks]

For what it it worth, if I use a malt yield of 80%, I hit my theoretical extraction efficiency numbers spot on with BIAB and my no-sparge CB20 system. Based on my experience, if you are getting higher numbers, you are probably not doing pure BIAB or no-sparge.

 

[mrcmatt]

No, where I was coming from was this: people used to claim that batch sparging couldn't be as efficient as fly sparging. Since then, a bunch of other people proved them wrong. It turns out that the statement (still falsely believed by many people) was based on assumptions about how to batch sparge using fly sparge equipment and fly sparge techniques. In reality, batch spargers with efficient system can get HIGHER efficiencies than many fly spargers because they have an easier time limiting losses in the MLT, they can often crush finer because they don't worry about channelization or stuck mash, etc.

I am curious if people are exceeding the 'theoretical' limits on extraction efficiency because the underlying 'theory' is flawed. It would be interesting to know where the errors occur.

Oh, I also looked at the links you provided, but I am confused by what it is you want to correct me on. The figures you cite in those links all refer to efficiencies for fly sparged brews, not the typical extraction efficiencies for the no-sparge technique.

I'm glad we have had this back and forth. I did not get what you were saying in your original post and now I do (well maybe, my track record here is not too good). I would rather not have irritated you or whatever to get here, but that's one of the problems with this kind of communication, misunderstandings grow until corrected.

The 65% number stuck in my mind, i overlooked the no sparge part.

Which is ironic, i let my preconceptions interfere with my reading of your comments...

I'm here to learn and enjoy doing it. After thinking about your question more, here is what comes to mind - BIAB is technically no sparge, but to me it seems different, but I don't know why is seems different, it just does.

When you look at the 2 techniques they are almost identical. The obvious differences I see are the grind on the grains and the lautering. Maybe finer grind allows the sugar to come out into the liquid more easily (but not all biabers grind small)? I wonder if suspending or "collandering" the bag and letting it drain is somehow different than "opening the spout" or whatever no spargers do to get their liquor. Is there additional pressure in the bag that helps recover more liquid or somehow push sugar out of the grain? Does the zero dead space make that much difference? Many BIABers hang the bag and let it drip, does this recover more liquid and squeeze out a bit more sugar? I have read some brewers physically squeeze the bag (twisting, pressing sides, etc), does that get much extra sugar out? Does the shape of the grain blob matter somehow, cylinder vs. teardrop? I doubt any of this would have much of an impact on efficiency. But something is going on as many folks are doing some pretty efficient brewing. (I know some of things I mention above would effect brewhouse more than extract efficiency, but all too often folks just say efficiency, so it is hard to know what they mean, so I just threw some ideas out that might effect either. )

Anyhow, no hard feelings and I'm done here, I fear I may have killed a pretty good thread... I have to go attend to a belgian tripel that just blew the airlock, should have known better and hooked up a blow off tube. brew on.

 

[FlyGuy]

You have definitely not killed a good thread. No worries man.

Actually, you probably have part of the equation worked out. BIAB brewers don't really have any wort losses because they mash and boil in the same vessel. Losses to the mash tun or lautering devices can account for a big part of the hit to one's extraction efficiency, so automatically BIAB brewers have a leg up. But I am not sure that this will entirely compensate.

 

[bigjoe]

This is the first time I've heard of BIAB... Where do you get the bags? Can you do all of this in your regular 15gal brew pot? It makes sense to use all the water that you would need for a traditional mash/sparge all in one (to have more water for the enzymes and all) and mash at 150 for 60 mins and then 170 for 15-20 mins. Then all you would have to do is lift the bag, drain, and then start the boil? Is this right?

Cooper sorry I just saw this. Hurt my back last week and I've been out of commision.

I think someone has already mentioned the 5 gallon paint strainer bags. You can do it in a 15 gallon kettle, but you'll most likely want a different bag. I used some voille like the aussie's. I think 2 yards cost $2. What you describe will work and is probably the best way to go the first time around for a mash. You don't really need to do the 170 rest, but it won't hurt. Stir the mash and keep the water moving when applying heat.

FlyGuy I think the reason the brew in a bag efficiencies are higher than "conventional wisdom" is the full volume of water being used. I don't know that I've read anything on no sprage in which the brewer wasn't adding top off water after the mash. Basically they were batch sparging and only using the first runnings if that makes sense. I also made an attempt at a more detailed explanation a few pages back. I didn't make the point very clear about the full volume of water.

I don't know that no MLT loss is a very good explanation though. I'm having trouble putting in words what I'm thinking. I'll post up later if I can put my explantion in plain english. Struggling at the moment.

 

[FlyGuy]

I don't know that no MLT loss is a very good explanation though. I'm having trouble putting in words what I'm thinking. I'll post up later if I can put my explantion in plain english. Struggling at the moment.

I am starting to think it is somewhat insignificant too, now. The small amounts that get left behind in the mash tun are low gravity runnings, so they actually shouldn't account for much in lost extract points.

 

[LandofOZ]

ok so i have been using a modified brew in bag. i brew 5 gallon batches. i came across a 6.5 gallon aluminium fryer pot and a 5 gallon gott coller (round) at sales for $5 each and got a 5 gallon paint strainer bag, the bag fits into the coolerand am able to pull it over the threads. preheat the the cooler and then add 3 gallons mash water to the grains in the bag in the cooler at about 162 stir and i get 150 mash temp droping 2 degrees in 90 minute mash. because the bag is streched over the coller threads the top holds the bag in place and am able to shake the cooler to stir the grains without removing the lid. while masing i heat my 3.5 gallons of sparge water to 180 degrees in the boil pot, when the mash is done i pull the bag and sit it in the a callander over the cooler and squeze the bag and then the bag goes into the sparge water in the pot for 15 minutes. 180 gets me 170 sparge temp. I have my stove down to where to know where to set the dial to maintain 170. after the 15 minute dip sparge i once again put the bag in a coolander over the pot. turn the heat up. squeeze the bag then remove to go in the garden. I add the mash from the cooler. usually do a 60 minute boil. i am usually several ponts over the origianl gravity called out in the recipee and have gotten final gravities 1.010 or lower for recipees that call for brewhouse efficiencies of 75 percent. this is working well for me and have done 7 to 12 pounds of grain, i think 12 would be about max for my 5 gallon cooler.

 

[cooper]

I think someone has already mentioned the 5 gallon paint strainer bags. You can do it in a 15 gallon kettle, but you'll most likely want a different bag. I used some voille like the aussie's. I think 2 yards cost $2.

That sounds very interesting. Do most people use a 10 gal pot? I'm also working on getting a 10 gallon cooler too, that's way up on the list of essentials I have to get once I get back home from Iraq.

Also, where do you purchase your "voille" stuff... I've never heard of this.

 

[jjones17]

After 4 batches of BIAB all grain brewing, I get 75% efficiency every time, no exceptions. My Process is dead on now, and I am starting to look for ways to improve my efficiency. Next time, I will try diong a 70 minute mash with a 20 minute sparge and see what happens. BIAB all the way for me, I do not have the interest to make the cooler system at this time.With BIAB sparging is a snap, mashing is simple for me (I hit my temp, cover, and place in a 200F preheated oven which is turned off after my tun is placed inside) and I do not lose a single degree for 60 minutes.

BIAB FTW!

 

[FlyGuy]

That's great to see all the people having such great success! It's great to demonstrate that we don't have to choose just one method to get fantastic results (like some old school brewers would have you believe).

For all you BIAB guys, is anyone doing larger than a 5 gal batch or high gravity (>1.07) brews? If so, what's your method for draining your grist bag? Pulley? Giant collander?

 

[bigjoe]

voille is very ligth weight see-thru stuff that goes behind drapes. I got mine at wally world. I'd first look int he drapes section to get an idea of what it is your looking for. Then go to the fabric section with the voille in had from the drapes section and tell them you want 2 yards of it.

I was doing BIAB in an 8 gallon turkey fryer and would top up with water when the mash finished. Interestingly enough I would still get 75-80% efficiency with the reduced amount of water, which may blow away my theory about more mash water being responsible for the better efficiencies. I guess it is still a thin mash, but not as thin with the full volume of mash water.

jjones17 if your doing a sparge your not really doing BIAB. The point is that its a no sprage process.

Sorry FlyGuy forgot to answer first time I posted. I haven't done over 1.070. I know some on this board have as well as > 5 gallon batches. Its in my future and I won't hesitate to do it though. When I do I'll be using a cooler and recirculating the whole time, so not exactly BIAB, but full volume no sparge.

 

[dwarven_stout]

jjones17 if your doing a sparge your not really doing BIAB. The point is that its a no sprage process.

I would hesitate to tell anyone mashing in a bag that they "are not doing brew-in-a-bag" just because they're "sparging".

The "point" for some is that a bag is $5- a cooler mash tun is $50-$75. I did 4 BIAB brews before I had found a cooler on sale. I "sparged", in that I used two pots, pulling the grain bag out of the "mash" pot and setting it in a 170 degree "sparge" pot.

Flyguy- I did one beer with a true OG of 1.128 as BIAB. 1.092 of that was mashed- I then added 3lb of DME and 4lb of candi syrup. That was a long day, but it worked. My notes say I got 74% eff with a long, hot sparge and long boil to reduce the runnings.
I used a 30qt pot to boil, adding wort from a 20qt pot as it boiled down. I set the grain bag in a colander over the 20qt pot to continue draining while I boiled.

 

[jjones17]

voille is very ligth weight see-thru stuff that goes behind drapes. I got mine at wally world. I'd first look int he drapes section to get an idea of what it is your looking for. Then go to the fabric section with the voille in had from the drapes section and tell them you want 2 yards of it.

I was doing BIAB in an 8 gallon turkey fryer and would top up with water when the mash finished. Interestingly enough I would still get 75-80% efficiency with the reduced amount of water, which may blow away my theory about more mash water being responsible for the better efficiencies. I guess it is still a thin mash, but not as thin with the full volume of mash water.

jjones17 if your doing a sparge your not really doing BIAB. The point is that its a no sprage process.

Really? I thought BIAB just means to mash in a grain bag... I didnt realize it referred to whether or not you sparged as well. I would still think that "Brewing in a bag" and sparging is much simpler than the cooler method... and would still consider it a benefit with my current setup. Whatever it is 'called' that I do, it works well. I pretty much sparge in the same method as Deathbrewer on his stovetop, except I do my mashout for 10 mins at 168, and then a quick sparge at 168 by suspending my grain bag with a colander and running the sparge water through the bag to reach my preboil volume.

So maybe I could say that I do BIAB with a sparge, so as not to confuse you no-sparger purists :cross:

 

[bakins]

All the conventional brewing wisdom I have read says that the maximum theoretical extraction rates you will get from no-sparge brewing is in the 65% range. How can you get above this theoretical maximum without a sparge? (Note that's extract efficiency, and not even brewhouse efficiency.)

FWIW: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/maximum-brew-bag-effeciency-137804/

Also: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/countertop-brutus-20-a-131411/index24.html#post1708318

Basically, it's not very hard to get 100% conversion. If you do, the upper 70's% is easy to reach. 78% has been my average recently as efficiency goes down as water/grain ratio goes down.

 

[HarkinBanks]

Bakins's numbers and calcs are spot on in my experience. I hit them routinely with both BIAB small batches and my CB20 system. My 1 gal small batches can hit 80% or higher.

 

[bigjoe]

Call it what you want I suppose, but I thought the original intent of the method was minimalist and it was no sparge, and I thought the OP was refering to that. I realize people use the bags in coolers, buckets and any number of things with a traditional sparge method

People in my club thought I was talking about a trash bag kind of a thing you hang on a door knob and dumped water, yeast and hopped extract into. No boil. The bag wold swell up and let out co2 some how.

My numbers are pretty much in line with Bakins and HarkinBanks.

One other thing people would tell me is that you could extract tannins if you got too high efficiency because the crush was so fine. I've countered that arguement with the pH doesn't change once grain hits water. So unless your pH was out to begin with tannin extraction shouldn't be a problem.

FlyGuy here's a 10 Gallong batch thread.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/10-gallon-brew-bag-10-gal-biab-100313/