Method to install element

[srice]

1.5" is the round plate so you can clamp both end with the trip clamp? that would be perfect and good price too. let me know if you find some for that price.

$75 on http://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/element5500_ripple_tc.htm

The round plate that the clamp attaches to is 1.984" in diameter for a 1.5" (as well as a 1") TC.

 

[srice]

It doesnt look like a 2" ferrule?

I agree. The body of a L630-P is 45mm diameter or just a little over 1.75"
The ferrule on a 1.5" TC is 16/1000" less than 2" in diameter. The ferrule on a 2.0" TC is just over 2.5" diameter. Looking at the picture, the body of the plug looks like it is just slightly smaller than ferrule. It doesn't look 3/4" smaller than the ferrule.

 

[Pdaigle]

is it possible to get weldless tc fitting? what is the pros and cons?

 

[Pdaigle]

is it possible to get weldless tc fitting? what is the pros and cons?

or one like this would need to be welded right?
https://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=tc-heating-element-fitting

 

[augiedoggy]

is it possible to get weldless tc fitting? what is the pros and cons?

They make ones you can silver solder onto the kettle...

 

[srice]

They make ones you can silver solder onto the kettle...

Yes, Brewhardware has a great one that I silver soldered onto my keggle. (Also silver soldered a flat one onto the bottom of my mash tun.)

 

[Bobby_M]

I like sitting back and watching all the speculation about what we vendors are doing and how we buy everything on Alibaba. I'll give you some hints and hopefully it won't come off as abrasive or defensive. The current state of the market goes like this. A vendor spends $x on R&D, CAD drawings, 3D printed prototypes and then when happy with the design they go to several manufacturers that are capable (or claim to be) manufacturing those designs. After getting turned down by all the U.S. manufacturers, the designer goes to China. They are happy to produce the product if you either pay $xxxx. for the mold for any plastic pieces or at least commit to X number of units to cover that cost. After some time, either that same manufacturer offers the same product to other vendors (who now don't have to cover mold costs) or they put the product up on Aliexpress to direct retail market at a price that the U.S. vendor cannot compete with. Another thing that happens is Chinese vendors steal images or mocks up products by epoxying some 3D printed parts together for a non functioning prototype and they will get the molds made after the bulk order comes in.

I get it, you want really good prices. The only way I can stay in business is to stay ahead of the curve and hope that I can pull any profit before the copy Chinese retailers can get to my latest product. It's not going to get any better for innovators. Eventually this model will drive us out of business and then the newest products will be driven by Chinese folks that don't even brew.

 

[augiedoggy]

I like sitting back and watching all the speculation about what we vendors are doing and how we buy everything on Alibaba. I'll give you some hints and hopefully it won't come off as abrasive or defensive. The current state of the market goes like this. A vendor spends $x on R&D, CAD drawings, 3D printed prototypes and then when happy with the design they go to several manufacturers that are capable (or claim to be) manufacturing those designs. After getting turned down by all the U.S. manufacturers, the designer goes to China. They are happy to produce the product if you either pay $xxxx. for the mold for any plastic pieces or at least commit to X number of units to cover that cost. After some time, either that same manufacturer offers the same product to other vendors (who now don't have to cover mold costs) or they put the product up on Aliexpress to direct retail market at a price that the U.S. vendor cannot compete with. Another thing that happens is Chinese vendors steal images or mocks up products by epoxying some 3D printed parts together for a non functioning prototype and they will get the molds made after the bulk order comes in.

I get it, you want really good prices. The only way I can stay in business is to stay ahead of the curve and hope that I can pull any profit before the copy Chinese retailers can get to my latest product. It's not going to get any better for innovators. Eventually this model will drive us out of business and then the newest products will be driven by Chinese folks that don't even brew.

Bobby thanks for setting a few things straight. I understand what your saying and I have heard some of your frustrations before from customers of mine who have closed their factories in search of greater profits overseas... and yes your right its a crappy deal.. IF your the guy who designed or paid to have someone draw it up in cad and made it happen..
I got the impression though this time around that this wasnt something you had brought to production.. especially when I saw it up on alibaba before I saw that you carried it.. and when I saw what I believed to be competitors of yours like brewboss also selling this for the same price and they appear to be from the same manufactuer.. I dont know what you pay for you stuff that you order from china as wholesale and your right its none of my business but honestly you cant blame me for wondering if these elements average for $3 in bulk from multiple manufacturing companies in china with the regular post screw connection on it,why would someone pay much more than 2 to 3 times that for a different simpler tc base and 30a plug mounted to it? I would have to believe that even the person who paid a cad designer for a days work because lets be honest thats all we are talking here, would not be paying more than $15-20 per unit because anything more would be unreasonable in scale to what it costs for the element in its original form.. They are replacing the threaded base with a TC plate which in all honesty would not cost any more once tooling is done.. Then they solder and mount a 30 outlet plug which also likely costs them less than a dollar..
That said the more I thought about all this the more I though it best not to make assumptions... Now I work with cad designers and manufacturing companies every day and I know how marketing works these days and I also know if a company can take a product that cost $4 to make in the states but sells for $40 and make it overseas and ship it back for $3.50 than chances are they are going to do that because that what the stock holder want. I also really do believe your making a healthy profit off of those elements as it stands and you have recouped any cost inferred to you my now. I am nobody.. just an opinionated prick on a forum but I have stated here and many times before that your prices and business practices are pretty much the most honest and reasonable Ive seen it this hobby and I really want to believe your only charging the normal 35% to 100% markups that everyone else seems to charge but you have to put yourself in my shoes and understand why when Im quoted $14 each for these if I buy 100 as a guy coming in out of no where why I would be upset and question all this. Especially when I was aware that pretty much every manufacturer on alibaba was selling these elements with the standard mounting and wiring connections for between $3-10 and others like Ebrew have sure seem to have already been marking those up quite a bit and reselling them. I have ordered things off alibaba before and I know its not all cheap knock offs like the perception often is made out to be. I also know a lot of vendors buy from there.

one of my customer actually has a side job as a scab for a company based out of canada who has hm draw up cad drawing of the designs of a local company based on their product... and the canadian company has them made overseas for a fraction of the cost.. So its really a world wide thing and not just china... if it didnt happen at all everyone would pretty much be able to charge whatever they wanted and their would be less motivation to improve and innovate.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Another hobby of mine is motorcycles, the Chinese are manufacturing a steady supply of small displacement dual sport enduro bikes that are driven all over the world. The engines are typically a Honda clone variety circa 1970. Simple and durable of decent quality.

I can tell you that what you see on various sites such as alibaba is merely only a dream as far as availability and pricing. Just because a certain element is listed at $3 - $10 is meaningless!!!!

To me it means that a Chinese manufacture would like to contract to build the item and those are estimated meaningless prices.

Please refrain from thinking these prices represent the real world, they don't.

To see an item on alibaba and assume that is what a US vendor is paying is very naive, and really not fair to that vendor for it to be restated here as fact.

"It must be true, I saw it on the Internet", BANG HEAD!!!

 

[passedpawn]

I like sitting back and watching all the speculation about what we vendors are doing and how we buy everything on Alibaba. I'll give you some hints and hopefully it won't come off as abrasive or defensive. The current state of the market goes like this. A vendor spends $x on R&D, CAD drawings, 3D printed prototypes and then when happy with the design they go to several manufacturers that are capable (or claim to be) manufacturing those designs. After getting turned down by all the U.S. manufacturers, the designer goes to China. They are happy to produce the product if you either pay $xxxx. for the mold for any plastic pieces or at least commit to X number of units to cover that cost. After some time, either that same manufacturer offers the same product to other vendors (who now don't have to cover mold costs) or they put the product up on Aliexpress to direct retail market at a price that the U.S. vendor cannot compete with. Another thing that happens is Chinese vendors steal images or mocks up products by epoxying some 3D printed parts together for a non functioning prototype and they will get the molds made after the bulk order comes in.

I get it, you want really good prices. The only way I can stay in business is to stay ahead of the curve and hope that I can pull any profit before the copy Chinese retailers can get to my latest product. It's not going to get any better for innovators. Eventually this model will drive us out of business and then the newest products will be driven by Chinese folks that don't even brew.

I had a client several years ago in China (I design medical devices). I was in their factory in central China and watched over a period of a few weeks while they cloned an American chiropractic device. An exact clone, plastic, metals, they even pulled the firmware binary off the microprocessor and put it in their own. They showed me what they had done and they were proud of it! - no shame at all. They asked me to dis-assemble the firmware and add some feature to the firmware. Uh... no.

 

[augiedoggy]

Another hobby of mine is motorcycles, the Chinese are manufacturing a steady supply of small displacement dual sport enduro bikes that are driven all over the world. The engines are typically a Honda clone variety circa 1970. Simple and durable of decent quality.

I can tell you that what you see on various sites such as alibaba is merely only a dream as far as availability and pricing. Just because a certain element is listed at $3 - $10 is meaningless!!!!

To me it means that a Chinese manufacture would like to contract to build the item and those are estimated meaningless prices.

Please refrain from thinking these prices represent the real world, they don't.

To see an item on alibaba and assume that is what a US vendor is paying is very naive, and really not fair to that vendor for it to be restated here as fact.

"It must be true, I saw it on the Internet", BANG HEAD!!!

ok the thing is I contacted the seller and was actually quoted $7.50 if I bought 2 and I did buy 2 of the integerated TC ones like discussed above for $16 each...

I have bought, received and had no issues with products from both alibaba and their retail site aliexpress. The first tme I was skeptical but the product was no longer avaliable for my 50" samsung plasma in the states so I bought it there ands was very suprized when it was on my porch in 2 days from china! (I still am) Im assuming you used alibaba too and found otherwise since your also commenting very matter of factly that the prices are false?


I'm not assuming resellers are paying $3-10 but yeah I cant help assume they are paying a lot closer TO $3-10 than they are $75 and their is a REALLY big gap between the 2. Thats the whole point I was making and I think I was trying to be conservative and reasonable in making that point.

over the years I have seen this at work almost everyday... employers I used to work for would order a part for machinery I repair for $10 wholsale and its sold to a customer for $348. You and I had this discussion before... A famous example would be when it was published that a pair of nike sneakers cost less than $5 to make... Why is it so hard to believe the prices on aliaba are fake? if a person orders 500 piece they likely get the $10 price... if they order 5000 they might pay $5 .. Thats how it works. I repair flat screen tvs and the sum of the components in a new led set are a lot less than $100 yet it can be sold for upwards of a grand..

Sure they steal all sorts of ideas and clone all sorts of products.. In reality I bet most of the time its when some American approaches them with these plans or photos asking them how much... its not really right but we are also not talking about a clone of an American product here.. This is a chinese product. Any american company thats already took some or most of thier manufacturing there will tell you they will clone and sell direct and its very very difficult to stop it. but if they can sell these things for $14 each which is what I was quoted if I ordered 100 (and likely less if I order more) than when it comes to the ones sold for $75, someone whether its the chinese supplier or the reller is making a large profit right? Because I dont believe there is enough of a cost difference from supplier to supplier to or materials to bridge that gap.

Look at the stainless hop spiders originally made by arbor and sold for about $60... others (in america) with larger fab shops and lower labor rates started making them and now they can sell for as little as $16 if you buy them from china. and as a result arbor sells them for less now. Its not all that different than name brand drugs vs generics really. or the repairman who qouted my sister $300 for a furnace blower motor that I was able to buy new from the same manufacturer as the original for $60.. Usually the less common the product the more likely its marked up higher.

I have savvy customers who jump on newegg and buy parts and boards for their hp machine for less than halfs of what it costs from HP direct.. Ive yet to find any indication that these parts arent from the same manufacturer who makes them for hp in china. and I know hp pays a lot less than what they are sold for on newegg so I dont blame the customer for wanting to save a few hundred bucks...

 

[BrunDog]

Yes, Chinese copy stuff - get over it. We may not consider it ethical, but its acceptable to them. Stop buying their sh!t if you don't like it.

Anyway, you guys crack me up. Let's compare:

Alibaba/Aliexpress: A few bucks, may or may not be what you expect, may or may not pay big dollars to ship it, may or not get it within a few days, may or not work right or adhere to listed specifications, may or may not get any response if you request any help, may or may not get any actual resolution for any problems.

Brewhardware (or other reputable sources here): A few bucks more, will be what you expect, will be a few bucks to get it, will get it in a few days, will work correctly, will get a response ASAP, will have the problem resolved if needed.

You should have some self respect for your time and efforts. When designing a solution, its not worth saving a few bucks to take on unnecessary risk. Pay someone to elminiate that risk for you. Yes, you may feel like you got a good deal but it will pretty much always cost you more in the end.

 

[augiedoggy]

Yes, Chinese copy stuff - get over it. We may not consider it ethical, but its acceptable to them. Stop buying their sh!t if you don't like it.

Anyway, you guys crack me up. Let's compare:

Alibaba/Aliexpress: A few bucks, may or may not be what you expect, may or may not pay big dollars to ship it, may or not get it within a few days, may or not work right or adhere to listed specifications, may or may not get any response if you request any help, may or may not get any actual resolution for any problems.

Brewhardware (or other reputable sources here): A few bucks more, will be what you expect, will be a few bucks to get it, will get it in a few days, will work correctly, will get a response ASAP, will have the problem resolved if needed.

You should have some self respect for your time and efforts. When designing a solution, its not worth saving a few bucks to take on unnecessary risk. Pay someone to elminiate that risk for you. Yes, you may feel like you got a good deal but it will pretty much always cost you more in the end.

ok so here we go... first your implying that the element (s) being sold by a few different companies on alibaba are all cheaper clones of a reputable one sold by brew supply or brewboss and whomever else sells them for $75 at this point (truth be told its very likely one of these manufactuers make them for the latter) ... we dont even know who invented this idea for sure because dispite Bobby implying that he did there are others like brew boss already selling them and they were on alibaba the same week bobby started selling them. Why is that ok ? Where did brew boss get them? Does bobby supply his competition? Its all good as long as they all charge the same price right?

$16 vs $75 is more than "a few bucks" to many people, especially when multiplied by 2 or 3

And both the ones sold for $75 and $16 are both chinese elements (and already clones or the ones camco sells if you want to go there) .. someone just combined three already existing products into 1 by replacing the threaded base with a TC plate and attaching a 30P nema connector.

you know your putting a whole different spin with the "risk" thing... I spent all of 5 minutes looking through alibaba for different elements because I was bored just like browsing ebay or amazon... I found this element only to discover a thread on HBT at the same time about this new product from BHW... it took me another 15 minutes at a later time to inquire with the seller on alibaba and make my purchase... I know how the site works and I have been refunded in full once before only to have my product show up 2 days later late. they have amazing support and protection... I have mentioned this but no one whats to hear this instead its ok for them to make assumptions of their own but mine are just blasphemy?

I have been brewing just fine with my "pretty good deals" for the last 3-4 years and so far they havent cost me even close to half of what it could easily have had I bought everything through popular resellers so..

always the same old arguement... generic product X is great if I buy it for $30 plus shipping from somewhere like aubrins but If I buy the exact same product direct from a chinese vendor for 12 shipped its cheap junk and im a fool whos wasting my time. and the time of those who I share my finds or experiences with.... And im the one whos attacked for making assumptions?

Im not arguing that if someone needs something fast or they need help with how to use it bobbys the clear choice... I am agruing that it doesnt mean that $75 isnt necessarily a lot more than the same thing can be purchased for directly from the manufacturers on the wholesale supply site and that its not junk because its a fraction of the cost because we dont know what markups are involed with a reseller.... lets keep in mind that with shipping a couple of these still costs like $60 obviously the larger the order the cheaper everything is.... Which brings me to my next point... If someone like bobby it selling them for $75 am I just supposed to blindly believe without question that they cost him around half of that or more without questioning why so much? and If I chose to buy one from china myself why does it make it junk without even a comparison by so many here?

 

[augiedoggy]

Yes, Chinese copy stuff - get over it. We may not consider it ethical, but its acceptable to them. Stop buying their sh!t if you don't like it.

And dont have it made there to begin with! Especially if you dont want others to question why your product is priced 5 times more than they or another competing chinese manufactuer is selling them direct and to other vendors for.

 

[DasBierBaron]

The prices on Alibaba are certainly tempting. I buy triclover fittings and valves from aliexpress sometimes. I don't have a lot of money so I try to save wherever I can. That said, most of my hardware has come from Bobby's store and I've never felt like he was trying to rip me off. I trust him more than someone on the other side of the planet, that's for sure. There are costs with running a retail store in this country. Chinese manufacturers are circumventing US patent laws which exist for a reason. For me the advantages of buying from a store like Brewhardware are that I know I'm getting something up to his standards with his support to back it up. I'd also much rather give the money in my brewing budget to someone who has supported my hobby for years. His store is the first place I've seen a lot of brewing products, and I'd like to see him keep innovating.

Retailers could certainly have their products made in the USA, but the same thing can happen and then your product is priced even less competitively because it costs so much more to make things here. March vs Chugger is a good example.

 

[augiedoggy]

The prices on Alibaba are certainly tempting. I buy triclover fittings and valves from aliexpress sometimes. I don't have a lot of money so I try to save wherever I can. That said, most of my hardware has come from Bobby's store and I've never felt like he was trying to rip me off. I trust him more than someone on the other side of the planet, that's for sure. There are costs with running a retail store in this country. Chinese manufacturers are circumventing US patent laws which exist for a reason. For me the advantages of buying from a store like Brewhardware are that I know I'm getting something up to his standards with his support to back it up. I'd also much rather give the money in my brewing budget to someone who has supported my hobby for years. His store is the first place I've seen a lot of brewing products, and I'd like to see him keep innovating.

Retailers could certainly have their products made in the USA, but the same thing can happen and then your product is priced even less competitively because it costs so much more to make things here. March vs Chugger is a good example.

Good points although I dont think there are any patents on this and no one has come forth to claim they designed it (Bobby told a story implying a US vendor went through the trouble to have them designed here and contracted a company in china to make them but who is it because multiple people including alibaba started selling them at the same time) or that the company selling them on alibaba isnt that same one making the ones being sold for 5x the price..and what about brew boss? if bobby designed these and had them made for him why isn't everyone jumping all over others like brewboss who are capitalizing on bobby work then? Again im not the only one pissing in the wind here making assumptions.. everyone wants to believe these elements on alibaba are some kind of inferior hack product so bad they completely refuse to even entertain that they could be one and the same or just as good but cheaper because they arent going through a middleman.

It totally cool if you want to believe $75 is a good value just because its gone through bobby.. point made..folks make the same arguement for paying double from aubrins for generic chinese stuff. But that doesnt mean it still didnt cost $5 to make the thing in china and it doesnt mean if someone buys it elsewhere its crap because its not 5 times the cost.. no one has yet compared these side by side or made any determinations here on what the better value is so if its ok for so many to assume its crap of falsely priced than its just as ok for me to keep an open mind at this point and assume otherwise.

 

[augiedoggy]

After going back and reading bobbies post It just hit me that the other possibility here is, there is another broker or distributor here that places like brewboss and brewhardware are buying these form which may explain the higher cost... This company many have designed and had them made in china and just sells wholesale to homebrewing vendors.
Just like the $40 stepper motors my old employer would sell for $2100 because it went through 2 other companies being marked up by each before we were able to purchase it. nobody questioned it because it was through a reputable company like xerox so "surely there were big development and manufacturing costs for this custom motor involved" that was until a tech did some investigative work and found them for $40 online from the manufacturer.

 

[Bobby_M]

I am NOT the designer of that particular element but the scenario that I described did happen to the vendor that did design it (and it happens to me for a lot of the parts that I do design). Yes, because that party had to absorb mold costs, the cost of the ones being sold in the U.S. right now, including mine was MUCH higher. I'll be perfectly transparent and say that I paid more than $50 each for them. The Chinese vendor linked to, which I know very well, does not even have the molds made to produce the element in the picture. Again, that's a 3d printed part.

Think about this, once that manufacture has the first U.S. company eat the cost of development and tooling, why wouldn't they go direct to retail with it and make twice the money with government subsidized postage?

Make stuff in the U.S.? I would LOVE to do that. I asked two U.S. companies that are in the heating element business for a quote for this element design a year before they actually got developed and they both replied "no quote".

 

[BrunDog]

DasBierBaron makes a very important point and you clearly reinforced that Bobby: innovation.

Innovation is expensive and deserves reward. If the innovators aren't rewarded, they stop innovating, and we all lose as a result.

Hey, it's a capital market environment we are in - I totally expect and respect the organic results it breeds. Better, less expensive products. But the buying equation comes down to the perceived value of the buyer. Some value spending as little as possible, some high quality, some great service. Or most likely a weighted blend of these three.

Augiedoggy you clearly put all your value the cheapest price. I personally value quality, then service, then price. It's all good - do what makes you happy!

 

[augiedoggy]

DasBierBaron makes a very important point and you clearly reinforced that Bobby: innovation.

Innovation is expensive and deserves reward. If the innovators aren't rewarded, they stop innovating, and we all lose as a result.

Hey, it's a capital market environment we are in - I totally expect and respect the organic results it breeds. Better, less expensive products. But the buying equation comes down to the perceived value of the buyer. Some value spending as little as possible, some high quality, some great service. Or most likely a weighted blend of these three.

Augiedoggy you clearly put all your value the cheapest price. I personally value quality, then service, then price. It's all good - do what makes you happy!

I do not put all my value in the cheapest price, My elements im using now are all american made except the one I paid the most for which I bought from the electric brewery and he sells for spike... That one was made in china and I paid $53 with shipping for it. Yes ironically its the cheapest quality because it was made for the least amount of money and had more people collecting markup fees to reach me.

Most of what I use in my brewery is the same generic chinese stuff being sold by aubrins ,duda diesel ,ebrew and the like, I just dont like paying the extra stocking fee for it. I dont need the support- I know how to use it or research how to use it and I know I can return it if it doesnt work.
When I look for a particular thing I dont normally research it to find out who invented it (If you and I did we would be driving nothing but Fords right?). I do like to know though if its the same quality or better than another.. It does depend on how common and how long somethings been on the market and yeah I know how patents work. In this case I honestly didnt no who invented it and still dont, all I saw was a bunch of vendors selling them both here and in china. I figured hell the Chinese make them so why not buy it from them?
I'm sure the chinese companys selling them will likely drive down the price of the ones being sold in the states, thats how capitalism works and it provents people from price gouging for long ($400 epipen is a good example). I do appreciate Bobby coming out and explaining the way it is and honestly It was bothering me because I really do believe the prices at brew hardware are great and I have ordered there myself multiple times.

But after seeing how cheap these things are actually produced for I have a different point of view to consider. I still believe SOMEONE is making a mint here by using the chinese to make them for pennies on the dollar for them... Its funny that THAT is considered ok but they exploiting us in a similiar manner isnt. It really boils down to the fact that they should not have sent the manufacturing there in the first place, If they did I for one would never have questioned why its being sold for more than twice as much as the american made ones!... But in any case they have made more than enough by now to cover designing in cad and printing a mold on a 3d printer dont you think? and they will continue to make money because there are a lot of people that just believe they are not selling thier country out as long as they pay a little more and buy the foreign good through an American company, designed here or NOT. And for those reasons companies that decide not to manufacture here still take things overseas because they still make a killing in profit that way, clones or not its mostly about marketing and the perception of a product. which is why so many big houshold names exist only on paper these days and on the generic chinese crap thats labeled with it to be pedaled to unsuspecting americans. if you take the same cheap product and put a big name brand on it and sell it through a "reputable" source its suddenly worth 2 to 5 times the price.. Whos paying for this in the end and Whos getting rich?

People use SS brewing insulated mash tuns and those are really just a rip off of the German made thermobarrels that SS had cloned in china? Bru gear is just a clone of the SS brewing conicals with triclover welded fitting and a different name on them. stout had homebrewing conicals before all the other companies copied them and started undercutting them? do you think these things were all patented? Do you think the folks buying them researched to see who designed them? NO price and features are the 2 things most looked at. What about the guy who invents something like a rims tube? do you think he was rewarded when many companies started selling them overnight? do people think about who invented this stuff when they buy it? of course not many just look for what they think is the best product at the most reasonable price. thats what I did.. and at the same time I questioned how a manufacturer in china can make them and sell them for $14 and still make a decent profit, than why are their others who where manufactured in the same country being sold for 5 times that. its not a space shuttle, it didnt take more than a days work to design and print in a cad modeling program. someone just took camcos heating element design and combined it with somone elses tri clover design and then again with someone elses standard plug design.

You claim I only care about price yet you have no idea what my financial status or resources are? not everyone can afford to just say "$16 or $75?... eh its only a few bucks" If I didnt give a **** I wouldnt have presented the arguement and asked questions here in the first place would I?

 

[BrunDog]

Well, if you go a read through your posts, it certainly seems like it. You keep wondering why anybody buys from anywhere other than the cheapest source. You are questioning markup / stocking fee. You mention price gouging. You talk about who is getting ripped off because they pay too much because they could buy it cheaper. Clearly you don't like the guys in the middle earning their business and find it better to go to the source. I say its not always worth my time to research for a few bucks or risk... but that's what is great about a market economy - follow what you value.

At the end of the day most of the stuff we buy is made overseas. It is being done because the companies have to be competitive and maximize their margin/profit. And when China isn't competitive anymore (it will happen), the stuff will be made in South America or Africa. And that's how the world spins.

 

[augiedoggy]

Well, if you go a read through your posts, it certainly seems like it. You keep wondering why anybody buys from anywhere other than the cheapest source.

When it comes to the same product yeah your right... Ok don't see why someone would want to spend $3 for the same exact roll of toilet paper from the same factory as they could buy it elsewhere for $1 and most of the time it's because the buyer is mislead that the $3 toliet paper is superior in some way or that they are stuck with it because of the common myth that sellers on amazon, eBay and Ali are all non reputable people that will leave them high and dry if there's an issue... there a lot of unfounded fear and a stigma with buying anything anywhere but the same popular resellers. Some are very reasonable and innovative and bring new stuff to this forum all the time at reasonable prices like Bobby... other just buy cheap stuff online in bulk and Mark and resell while giving the impression that it's not the case and that is what I like to often clear up because while it's only a few bucks to some, others have been putting off building g or buying because even though they may not have the extra disposable income to justify spending 2 or 3 grand on say going electric.. if they knew they could buy the same stuff for a grand instead they would be making it a reality.

Just yesterday Johnny rotten was posting about replacing his aubrins pid complaining it wasnt working... now after talking it looks like the issue really is the $8 temp sensor/wiring that he paid almost $40 for a year ago from aubrins... when he contacted them they did not offer much except to tell him to cut and rewire it. Now why would you pay over 3 times as much for that when he could have bought 3 of the exact same generic probes completely wired with the exact same disconnects and wiring by the same guys in China for less than he paid for one from aubrins? Who is he helping and how are they returning the favor? Do you think businesses say ah those are good guys there let's pay 3 times as much for our supplies from them because of it?

When a markup is reasonable and thier benefits it's one thing.. in most cases here it's more like why don't you buy the Chevy for 32000 from this dealership vs 17000 from the other dealership because you get free oil changes and they have free coffee in the lounge while you wait.

 

[augiedoggy]

After communicating back and forth all evening I was able to find that these are only available to fit a 2" ferrule. A bit disappointing at $10 a piece as my two boilers have 1-1/2" ferrules but I'll be ordering a larger 50 gal. spikes pot in Feb.

I like the idea of being able to remove the element for cleaning. I'm constantly digging crap out of the element that I'm currently using plus I like the twist lock connection and the ability to hang up my cables out of the way when not in use.

I'm posting this as closure on this topic here for those who had questions on the ferrule size and those who just refused to believe the prices I were quoted and charged were real.

I received them in the mail today.

The ferrule for theses are in fact the standard 1.9x" (50.5mm) diameter used on all the standard 1"and 1.5" TC fittings and not the larger 64mm sized ferrule used on the 2" sized TC fittings.

overall I havent tested them yet but they appear to be of decent quality maybe not as perfect as the old camcos I have but just as good as the one chinese made one bought from the electric brewery anyway.

something that should be mentioned, I dont know how the other similiar elements that Bobby and brew boss sells are made but these were not made with any special tooling or molds... its pretty apparent they just took the bare element and drilled 2 holes in a standard 1.5" TC cap to install the element through and attached the element wire posts directly to a standard L6-30p connector. In fact the only component I cant place for sure is the clear silicone plug connector insulation shield So rest assured people no ones labor and development costs were ripped off and used in the making of these. They are assembled with off the shelf components... Apparently unlike the ones Bobby sells which would have the TC base welded or molded to the element to ensure these development and tooling costs..

 

[user 125772]

I would never buy anything from aliexpress mainly because of all the points Bobby brought up (which are not new to me) .

Support your favorite home brew shop, or the won't be around when you need them most!

 

[augiedoggy]

I would never buy anything from aliexpress mainly because of all the points Bobby brought up (which are not new to me) .

Support your favorite home brew shop, or the won't be around when you need them most!

I do support my local shops. (My local shop doesnt carry this stuff)... I just wont pay $83 for the same $7 foreign made element thats gone through 3 sales and markups to get to me... Your entitled to your opinion but IF the elements that bobby sells are the same as these I will repeat that there was no real development cost involved as these are just hobbled together with off the shelf components designed by others that are drilled and glued together... And if thats the case, the people that are buying them for likely around $10 each from china already made and then marking them up to $50+ and reselling to bobby and the like are the ones laughing right now. American shell companies/ distributors are always going to spin it to make it seem they did all the work and china is somehow forcing them to buy and from them so they can make crazy higher profits off another country's labor.. they need this perception to play on the Americans peoples ignorance and frustrations.. I have no sympathy for these greedy people.

According to brewbosses website the version of these elements that he sells are manufactured exclusively just for him to sell so if thats true than the ones bobby selling are from another supplier... So someones either not telling the whole truth here or there were multiple companies making and selling these from the get go... I already know I saw and bookmarked these on alibaba before bobby even started selling them so.

 

[Bobby_M]

While I'm not going to lay out every detail of my own business practices, and sensitive information that my partners and vendors would prefer not aired, what I can tell you is that you are mistaken on several fronts. The party that designed and contracted the manufacture of these elements was the first to the party and they were not Chinese. If you in fact saw an element like that on a chinese website, you saw a picture of the very first prototype built with a 3D printed part.

What I tried explaining earlier is that Chinese vendors will advertise just about any product they think they can sell, even if they don't know for sure that they can successfully produce. They cobble it together for pictures and wait for the big order to come in. These companies have absolutely no sense of ethics. They agree to produce, charge several thousand for a new mold to replace the part that was previously 3D printed. While the designer is waiting for the first production run to be complete, they are already off trying to sell the same product to whomever will buy it.

So, while the designer is waiting for a slow crate on a boat, with some $30,000 in stock to arrive, paying for customs and duty, and strapped from the mold build cost, The same company is selling the units for less than the U.S. vendor actually pays. No duty assessed on small packets and the shipping is dirt cheap due to government subsidy. I'm not exaggerating for effect. These companies are trying to make a quick buck. There will always be another company that feeds them designs to steal at a later date so they don't care about the bridge burning that happens. Again, I'm not the original designer of this part but I know enough of the details such that I can comment on it.

I'm not saying that every product made in China and offered on Aliexpress is the same story, not by a long shot.

 

[augiedoggy]

While I'm not going to lay out every detail of my own business practices, and sensitive information that my partners and vendors would prefer not aired, what I can tell you is that you are mistaken on several fronts. The party that designed and contracted the manufacture of these elements was the first to the party and they were not Chinese. If you in fact saw an element like that on a chinese website, you saw a picture of the very first prototype built with a 3D printed part.

What I tried explaining earlier is that Chinese vendors will advertise just about any product they think they can sell, even if they don't know for sure that they can successfully produce. They cobble it together for pictures and wait for the big order to come in. These companies have absolutely no sense of ethics. They agree to produce, charge several thousand for a new mold to replace the part that was previously 3D printed. While the designer is waiting for the first production run to be complete, they are already off trying to sell the same product to whomever will buy it.

So, while the designer is waiting for a slow crate on a boat, with some $30,000 in stock to arrive, paying for customs and duty, and strapped from the mold build cost, The same company is selling the units for less than the U.S. vendor actually pays. No duty assessed on small packets and the shipping is dirt cheap due to government subsidy. I'm not exaggerating for effect. These companies are trying to make a quick buck. There will always be another company that feeds them designs to steal at a later date so they don't care about the bridge burning that happens. Again, I'm not the original designer of this part but I know enough of the details such that I can comment on it.

I'm not saying that every product made in China and offered on Aliexpress is the same story, not by a long shot.

Can you comment on why Brew boss states in their order page that these elements were designed for and sold exclusively by them if you carry them too?

Its odd that photos of these were already on alibaba before you even had them in stock... Clearly if the vendor selling them on alibaba isnt the very same vendor that made them from the get go someone shared this information early with them before they even hit the streets? In any case at the end of the day its disheartening to see a cheap product that costs likely 5-10 dollars to make in china end up costing us 75 to buy through local distributors.. And I understand your price is high for these as well, im not blaming you but at this point the "designer" whomever they are has made their money and plenty more if they are making $40 profit or even only $20 after paying $20 duties and taxes on each one thats $600,000 profit for just placing one order and distributing them right?

The bulk shipping for 30,000 of these is a hell of a lot less than I paid for my 2 and even if I ordered 100 of these for $16 each the shipping went from $15 each to $4.40 The reason such a large order would be placed is so they can get them cheaper.
But thats often not how its really often done. Instead for minimal investment small orders are placed with the manufacturer while orders from customers pour in to fund more..
Meanwhile the orders where paid for and placed with that money and they would show up a few weeks later while the customer waits for their backordered product, at least until they get enough profit money built up where they are operating in the green and can begin to order actual stock inventory. (People tho ordered stuff from SSbrewing in the beginning might remember this scenerio) The elements I ordered and got clearly did not involve any special tooling on the manufacturers part so if yours are the same I have my doubts the "designer" was forced to place a large initial order. mine were hand assembled with off the shelf components and epoxy... The tc base is not molded to the element like they would be if they were actually mass produced by equipment tooled to do so. Are the ones you sell made the same way with the element just epoxied or soldered to the base? if not that could explain some of the cost increase for the "mold" you mentioned. I would also feel better that we are comparing apples to oranges here.
The main components here is still a design taken from camco along with someones triclover and someone elses plug design Are these people being supported here? are these patented? its all hypocritical to me as to whom stole what from whom.. you can just as easily argue you or still dragon had the TC base designed for your elements before these were around. Some guy literally just stuck them all together in a 3D cad drawing or printed mockup and sent it off to someone else to make it happen and that guy has made a lot of money off it by now already. Many of us homebrewers have created similar things and you see others stealing and profiting off our ideas everyday here and thats apparently ok? look at the regular stainless based elements that were over $75 a piece when only one distributer had a monopoly on them... Before you know it, Camco and others like china started selling them and they suddenly became more affordable for us to buy. And you started carrying those coptcat options. The same will likely happen here when these pop up from other vendors or on ebay or ali..

 

[wilserbrewer]

Auggie,

30,000 units, $600,000.00 profit?

Where the heck do you get your numbers?

Edit....ok Bobby said $30,000 in stock, NOT 30,000 units.

I think your vision that someone made or is making a boat load of money off these elements is distorted.

The developer took risk bringing these to market and rightfully so deserves to be rewarded, and the guy you perceive overcharging for these things could be near upside down with a thousand in stock that may never sell at his desired price.

These are a specialty item with low volume sales and high initial cost, not Nike sneakers.

Can we let this thread die already...HNY

 

[augiedoggy]

Auggie,

30,000 units, $600,000.00 profit?

Where the heck do you get your numbers?

Edit....ok Bobby said $30,000 in stock, NOT 30,000 units.

I think your vision that someone made or is making a boat load of money off these elements is distorted.

The developer took risk bringing these to market and rightfully so deserves to be rewarded, and the guy you perceive overcharging for these things could be near upside down with a thousand in stock that may never sell at his desired price.

These are a specialty item with low volume sales and high initial cost, not Nike sneakers.

Can we let this thread die already...HNY

must have misread his post..


In any case this debate has run its course and become mostly negative assumptions on everyone's part including myself. Its obvious nothing productive will come of it so I'm dropping it.
It also just hit me that Brew boss was claiming to be the developer all along on his page and I just didnt see it.
Happy Holidays