Mashing with too much water

[sonvolt]

I think I'm going to offer a dissenting opinion. I'm on "watching offspring" duty and hence can't grab my bible, I mean Noonan, but I say a thick mash produces a less fermentable wort while a thin mash produces a more fermentable wort.

Yeah . . . isn't this what I was saying . . .?

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

Yeah . . . isn't this what I was saying . . .?

I think so...but I didn't say I was dissenting with everybody!

 

[the_bird]

Also BG, earlier in the thread mash thickness was being heavily intertwined with mash temperature, and confusion reigned on high for a while.

Sorry, leave it to me to screw EVERYTHING up. Too much water and I still can't hit my temp...

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

Sorry, leave it to me to screw EVERYTHING up. Too much water and I still can't hit my temp...

There is very little temperature control is basket weaving, thus leaving you to concentrate entirely on reed thickness. Have you considered changing hobbies?

 

[oooFishy]

Entirely new to the science of mashing. Do the terms thick and thin refer to the amount of water added to the mash?

If this is the case, does more water mean more fermentable cause the emzymes have more room to convert starch to sugar.

I think I got this right........right?

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

If this is the case, does more water mean more fermentable cause the emzymes have more room to convert starch to sugar.

I think I got this right........right?

That looks like the general consensus. However, trying to control the fermentability of the wort through alteration of the mash thickness is spotty at best since you still need to manage your temperature. Makes the most sense to me to keep the thickness the same for every batch and eliminate one more variable.

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

That looks like the general consensus. However, trying to control the fermentability of the wort through alteration of the mash thickness is spotty at best since you still need to manage your temperature. Makes the most sense to me to keep the thickness the same for every batch and eliminate one more variable.

Agreed...I think temperature is probably the single most important factor in terms of fermentability, followed by pH, some other stuff I don't know about, and then mash thickness (assuming a consistent grind across all experiments).

The Kaiser swayed me to the German way of thinking that controlling fermentability accurately and consistently is best accomplished via separate beta and alpha rests. And I still don't get it right (but I do get beer)...

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

Agreed...I think temperature is probably the single most important factor in terms of fermentability, followed by pH, some other stuff I don't know about, and then mash thickness (assuming a consistent grind across all experiments).

LOL, is there such a category? I'll take 'some other stuff I don't know about' for 500, Alex.

 

[Sir Sudster]

OK, here's the question:

What other than PH and mash thickness makes Begee's beer so bad.

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

OK, here's the question:

What other than PH and mash thickness makes Begee's beer so bad.

Maybe I should wash my hands and not sneeze in the kettle so much?

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Stop peeing in the fermenter to sanitize it. Use bleach. And boil in an aluminum kettle.

 

[Sir Sudster]

Maybe I should wash my hands and not sneeze in the kettle so much?

Sorry Begee, but you have to answer that as a question.

 

[skou]

Maybe I should wash my hands and not sneeze in the kettle so much?

Looks like a question to me!

steve

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

Maybe I should wash my hands and not sneeze in the kettle so much?

Weren't we just talking about only changing ONE variable at a time?

 

[Kaiser]

The Kaiser swayed me to the German way of thinking that controlling fermentability accurately and consistently is best accomplished via separate beta and alpha rests. And I still don't get it right (but I do get beer)...

Lately, I have gotten more insight into the seperate beta and alpha rest mashes used by German brewers. The idea of a multi step saccrification rest is to better utilize the beta amylase by holding a maltose rest at about 62C - 64C and then heating up to either a second maltose rest at 65C (for even better fermentability) or heating up to the saccrification rest at 70-72C. The latter rest is held until the mash is converted. Narziss, THE German brewing guru, recommends this mash for a stepped infusion mash, while he recommends a single saccrification rest between 63 and 65C for decoction mashes. In a decoction mash shedule the starched have been made accessible enough to the enzymes that they don't really need the multi step saccrification rests.

That's why I stopped using multi step saccrification rests for decoction mashes and may only used them when I do a directly heated mash in my kettle.

If you are getting the attenuation and full conversion with a single saccrification rest and you mash in a non-heated vessel, don't worry about the multi step saccrification rests.

Kai

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

I don't think I've ever done two rests in the 62-65 range. I'm referring more to the 60/70 rests which I'm terming alpha/beta. So I've leant towards a 40/60/70 lately for all-barley mashes (skipping a protein rest) and 40/50/60/70 for wheat mashes. I'm going to try a 40/50/60/70 with the Breiss Pilsen malt to see what that accomplishes, if anything.

Or, I might do as Noonan suggests in his procedures and try 40/50/~67 (depends on the strike temp of the recipe), basically a single combined rest.

In all cases of multistep mashes I've concluded with a thin decoction to achieve mashout temperatures.

 

[Desert_Sky]

Ok, been going through the textbooks to find this for you guys

The thickness of the mash i.e., the ratio of grist to brewing liquor, has a similar albeit less dramatic effect on the extract yields and wort fermentability as temperature. A thicker mash protects more fragile enzymes (beta amylase and any prtoeolytic enzymes still present) and so increases fermentability and FAN. A thinner more watery mash results in higher extract and less fermentability.

2:1(very thick) High Fermentability - Low Extract
2:1 - 3:1 Moderate Fermentability- Moderate Extract
3:1 - 4:1(thin) Low Fermentability - High Extract

 

[Desert_Sky]

^^^^

no comments?

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

It's interesting, and contrary to my other sources, but I'm not smart enough to say whether it's right or wrong!

 

[Porcelon]

2:1(very thick) High Fermentability - Low Extract
2:1 - 3:1 Moderate Fermentability- Moderate Extract
3:1 - 4:1(thin) Low Fermentability - High Extract

I'm no mash expert, but from a simple chemistry standpoint the extraction is right. The more liquid in the mix the more room for sugars to dissolve. I don't think this takes into account sparging though. So any kind of sparge would effect this property.

The high fermentability in a thick mash is due to the time saccarides are in contact with enzymes. When there's more liquid there's more time for the enzymes to float around not converting anything.

Oh yeah, my only decent qualification is my degree in biochemistry, which I'm using for good (beer) not evil (making money).

Matt

 

[Glibbidy]

In the future instead of F-ing around with your mash water being too hot, and trying to regulate it with cooler water to hit your target temp, consider using a wort chiller to cool the mash water to your target temp before adding it to the mash. In this case you will avoid addiing any addtional volume of liquids that would otherwise affect your overall efficiency.

Make sense?

 

[the_bird]

Perfect sense, although given that I was only off by a couple degrees, I probably could have just taken it off the heat and let it sit for two minutes to cool before adding it to the grain. By the time I got the chiller hooked up, I probably would have already lost too much temp. As I get more experience, I would also expect to have a much better idea of *how much* cool water to add to a mash to get the temp down a couple degrees, rather than overdoing it. It wasn't like I was ever out of range, I just started too far on the high end.

Plus, I now have a better understanding of how to use tools like BeerSmith, so I can get a more precise measurement of how how my mash water need to be to hit my target.