mash PH Help

[scallopking]

After reading and reading I am still confused. I understand this is important to my brews for increased hop extraction flavor and yeast fermentation. I've never checked this before so wondering what you guys do.

why check for mash ph? I kind of get this, I think now.

when to check for mash ph? sounds stupid but at what point in the mash?

what level should mash ph be for IPAs?

how to check for mash ph? I have an unused ph meter for my fish tank, will that work - calibrate and drop the probe in some mash? it does low and high ranges. or are the test strips easier/better?

how do you adjust mash ph?

I am really interested in gaining some knowledge and experience points to better my IPAs. thanks so much everyone.

 

[paulegli]

why check for mash ph? I kind of get this, I think now.

Here's the quick version: the enzymes which convert starches in your malted grains into fermentable sugars have a range of pH values where they work best. The two primary amylase enzymes (the ones that clip the long starch molecules into shorter sugars) in barley malts are most active between pH 5.4 and 5.8. Each enzyme has an optimum range, but they overlap at around pH 5.5, which is why this is the most common target pH for mashing.

when to check for mash ph? sounds stupid but at what point in the mash?

This isn't a stupid question, and you may be many answers. I generally dough in, recirculate for about 5 minutes with my RIMS system, then check the pH using a pen-type pH meter like this one.

what level should mash ph be for IPAs?

Unless you're doing extra mashing steps like a protein rest or a ferulic acid rest, the mash pH should be 5.5 for all types of beers.

how to check for mash ph? I have an unused ph meter for my fish tank, will that work - calibrate and drop the probe in some mash? it does low and high ranges. or are the test strips easier/better?

The least expensive way to check mash pH is with test strips, preferably narrow-range strips like these. Strips aren't as accurate as a properly calibrated pH meter, but they are convenient to store and use -- just pull a sample of wort, let it cool down, dip, and read. To get more accuracy, you can get a pen-type pH meter or one with a removable electrode. Meters vary in quality and accuracy, but all of them should be calibrated using fresh pH calibration solution before each use. If your LHBS sells calibration fluid, this is generally not a problem. Calibration is usually a matter of sticking the probe into the calibration solution and turning a screw or adjustment knob until the meter reads the correct value for the solution. I usually calibrate my pen meter to the pH 4.0 solution since that's close to what I'm expecting to measure. For more accuracy, you would calibrate both at pH 4.0 and 7.0.

Since you have the fish tank pH meter, I'd suggest getting some strips and using both methods at first, comparing values to see if they are at least close. If the readings are within about 0.5 pH units, try calibrating the meter using calibration solution(s) before your next brew and comparing again.

how do you adjust mash ph?

Unless you're using acidulated malt, your mash pH is likely to be higher than 5.5. I use a solution of food-grade 88% lactic acid, purchased at my homebrew shop, to adjust the pH down to the 5.4 - 5.6 range. Food-grade phosphoric acid also works well. Shops often sell other acids, especially if they support winemakers. Citric acid or acid blends reportedly can affect the flavor of your beer, though I couldn't say if this is the case based on personal experience as I haven't used them

I am really interested in gaining some knowledge and experience points to better my IPAs. thanks so much everyone.

Braukaiser has a great series of articles about mash pH:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=An_Overview_of_pH
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=How_pH_affects_brewing
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Mash_pH_control

Good luck!

 

[scallopking]

This is so awesome. Thanks for the detailed response.

What is in the solution of lactic acid? Just mix it up and add it in? How much do you know to add in at first?

About the acidulated malt, is there a certain kind? Is there a recommended amount to add per batch in general possibly?

The ph meter I have has the 4 and 7 solutions to calibrate, with a probe. I use the same one to control the ph for my reef tank calcium reactor at 6.5, good point though to trust but verify with strips too. One less thing to buy hopefully.

Should you measure each and every batch?

 

[paulegli]

What is in the solution of lactic acid? Just mix it up and add it in? How much do you know to add in at first?

About the acidulated malt, is there a certain kind? Is there a recommended amount to add per batch in general possibly?

The ph meter I have has the 4 and 7 solutions to calibrate, with a probe. I use the same one to control the ph for my reef tank calcium reactor at 6.5, good point though to trust but verify with strips too. One less thing to buy hopefully.

Should you measure each and every batch?

The 88% lactic acid is just lactic acid and water, and it comes as a solution. You can use a pipette to add it to your mash or just pour it in a little at a time. The amount you use will depend on the starting pH of your mash, the buffering capacity of your water (basically, how resistant your starting water is to changes in pH), and the types of grains in your mash. Darker grains tend to add acidity. I've only had to add a little bit of lactic acid solution, maybe one to two ounces, to get my pH down. If you undershoot your pH, you can use calcium carbonate to bring it back up.

Acidulated malt is most often two-row that has been sprayed with lactic acid solution. The general rule is to use up to 10% acidulated malt in your total malt bill. Like adding acid solution, however, this will depend on the starting point of your water.

It sounds like your meter will work fine. The glass probes on the meters do wear out after a while, so I would verify that the meter reading matches a pH strip, more or less, at least for the first batch or two. Once you feel confident that the meter is reading correctly, you won't need the strips any more.

I measure pH on all of my batches, though I don't always adjust it. I don't generally worry if the pH is between 5.3 and 5.5. If I do end up adjusting the mash pH, I always use my meter to ensure that I didn't add too much or too little acid.

A couple more points to mention:

• pH readings will change with temperature. Some meters have automatic temperature compensation that will adjust the displayed value based on the reading of a built-in temperature probe. Even with ATC, you need to cool your sample down to more or less room temp before measuring.
• The mash pH affects the enzyme activity in the mash. If your mash efficiency is already pretty good, you might not need to adjust pH at all. You might still want to measure it to have a record, however.
• There are a couple of spreadsheets available which will calculate your mash pH given your grain bill and starting water pH. http://www.ezwatercalculator.com and https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/home/files are two that I've used.

 

[jmark]

I agree with most of what Paulegli said, although I'd question needing to add an ounce or two of lactic acid... When I ever add it, I'm usually adding a millimeter or two... I think if you added an oz of lactic you might end up with quite a sour mash!

 

[PeteNMA]

Don't use pH strips to try and verify readings from a calibrated meter. Strips are notoriously inaccurate

 

[scallopking]

thank you everyone for all your help, I really appreciate it! now I need to apply the knowledge.

 

[IslandLizard]

If you haven't done so, look around on the brew science forum, especially the stickies, for more in-depth information on mashing pH, water composition (minerals) and how to adjust for your water and grist using calculators, like Bru'n Water.

Since the bulk of mashing happens really fast, you may not be able to correct the pH after you get the actual pH measurement. Instead, use the "trial and error" method with small test mashes, like 1/2 pound to a pound of the same grist mixture. Mash with the same water ratio and temperature as you would do the main mash. Measure pH, calculate acid needed and do another test mash, adjusted with drops of either phosphoric acid (85%) or lactic acid (88%), or pre-diluted to more manageable percentages. Repeat the test mash until you're satisfied, then perform the main mash with the proportionally increased amount of acid. Add your test mashes toward the end. No grain wasted, just some quality time spent learning about your mash pH.

 

[SilverZero]

Since the bulk of mashing happens really fast, you may not be able to correct the pH after you get the actual pH measurement.

How fast are we talking? What's the rate of conversion for a typical mash at, say, 1.5qts/lb?

 

[jmark]

That's a good question... For a typical mash, you can see the majority of conversion in 15-30 minutes. You'll see a guy called Kai Troester mentioned a lot on HBT and with good reason; he ran a bunch of experiments on mash times, temperatures, pH and more that you can find at the link below. I refer to this a lot and understanding some of the science behind these things make it easier to make adjustments to your brew day as things happen. Unfortunately since conversion may occur quite quickly, pH is something I'd use a water calculator like Bru'nWater to predict and, if off (which to be honest if you get the right inputs, I've not found it to be), make adjustments on your next batch.

http://braukaiser.com/documents/Effects_of_mash_parameters_on_attenuation_and_efficiency.pdf

 

[gbx]

Unless your water is TERRIBLE for brewing, don't waste your time with spread sheets and online calculators. If you are just chasing a few points improvement, you won't find it that way. The spreadsheets are great tools if you understand what you are doing, but they are only tools, don't let them be the brew master. If you are interested in this stuff, read this thread https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460 Don't just read the first few pages, read at least 50 pages. The original post has been thoroughly peer reviewed and recommendations revised so you need to read a lot but it is worth it. By the time you are done you will be ready to make an educated decision about what to do with your mash pH or you will decide to relax, don't worry, etc...but it will be an educated decision to RDWHAHB that you can be comfortable with.

 

[jmark]

I don't think the OP cares so much about efficiency and if you're talking about chasing those points, I fully agree. That thread you referenced is indeed excellent as a primer, but I would say that monitoring your pH levels has to be one of the most important things you can do if you want to improve your beer. pH can affect all manner of things - the color, the hop utilization, hot/cold break, yeast activity - so ignoring it seems, at least IMHO, somewhat short-sighted.

 

[gbx]

I don't think the OP cares so much about efficiency and if you're talking about chasing those points, I fully agree. That thread you referenced is indeed excellent as a primer, but I would say that monitoring your pH levels has to be one of the most important things you can do if you want to improve your beer. pH can affect all manner of things - the color, the hop utilization, hot/cold break, yeast activity - so ignoring it seems, at least IMHO, somewhat short-sighted.

I agree its important and can make a huge difference if your water is terrible for brewing. The OP didn't give a water profile and his profile doesn't list his location so who knows what its like. If your water is even passable (no chlorine/chloramine, reasonable carbonate and sodium, no horrible tastes, etc) it won't make a noticeable difference unless your sanitation, ferment temps, conditioning and service are near perfect. That doesn't mean don't get a pH meter and play around with it. Its another fun aspect of brewing if that sort of thing interests you.

 

[jmark]

Mostly true, but you'd be hard pressed to make an excellent stout AND an excellent Pilsner with the same water. That's where adjusting the mash comes into play

 

[scallopking]

I agree its important and can make a huge difference if your water is terrible for brewing. The OP didn't give a water profile and his profile doesn't list his location so who knows what its like. If your water is even passable (no chlorine/chloramine, reasonable carbonate and sodium, no horrible tastes, etc) it won't make a noticeable difference unless your sanitation, ferment temps, conditioning and service are near perfect. That doesn't mean don't get a pH meter and play around with it. Its another fun aspect of brewing if that sort of thing interests you.

I should have mentioned I was in Las Vegas. So Lake Mead water which is very hard water but I think makes a great IPA beer. Don't know what my water analysis is - my brother in law works for Southern Nevada Water maybe I'll ask him who to contact to get a breakdown. I do filter the water before using it but not RO or RO/DI. I have one but don't use it for brew water no chlorine/chloramine I guess mainly or horrible tastes like above. Problem is I don't know how much better it could be (or not) if I do all this.

 

[jmark]

Again it really depends on what type of beers you like brewing... higher sulfate waters might be better for traditional IPAs but if you like soft lagers like the aforementioned Pils then you may want to look into water and pH adjustments. Certainly doesn't hurt to get a water analysis done (Ward Labs at https://producers.wardlab.com/brewerskitorder.php can do this)... they're fairly inexpensive and would at least give you the knowledge to make an informed decision if that's something you've got some interest in (just as gbx said).

 

[scallopking]

thanks jmark and everyone who helped me. much appreciated.

 

[gbx]

I should have mentioned I was in Las Vegas. So Lake Mead water which is very hard water but I think makes a great IPA beer. Don't know what my water analysis is - my brother in law works for Southern Nevada Water maybe I'll ask him who to contact to get a breakdown. I do filter the water before using it but not RO or RO/DI. I have one but don't use it for brew water no chlorine/chloramine I guess mainly or horrible tastes like above. Problem is I don't know how much better it could be (or not) if I do all this.

The best thing you can do to improve your beer is attend your local homebrew club meetings (there has to be one in Las Vegas). I guarantee someone there will have already gone through the trouble of figuring out what to do with your water and would probably be happy to tell you about it (or at least already obtained a water report). Feedback from other brewers and judges is so valuable especially if you haven't done any off flavor training or have any palatte holes.

 

[scallopking]

The best thing you can do to improve your beer is attend your local homebrew club meetings (there has to be one in Las Vegas). I guarantee someone there will have already gone through the trouble of figuring out what to do with your water and would probably be happy to tell you about it (or at least already obtained a water report). Feedback from other brewers and judges is so valuable especially if you haven't done any off flavor training or have any palatte holes.

great idea! thanks. Our club has a "gauntlet" to put your beers through a mock competition but with real judges and a help-desk before each meeting to get feedback. I am definitely doing the gauntlet this month. the beers taste great to me but I don't have a refined palate for off flavors or holes as you said.