mash out specifics

[effinpansy]

So, new to AG, 2 somewhat unsatisfying brews. I'm trying to get a default setting for fly sparging (or your hybrid thingy). My question is the mash out step. What would you do:

1. drain all of the first runnings (after vorlauf) then add sparge water at 170F (no mash out) and continue as described in the hybrid thread

2. drain as above, add boiling water, raising grainbed to 170F, then proceed

3. Vorlauf and return to MT with infusion to get 170F, proceed

4.Other, please decribe

I'm thinking with a thin mash (ala Kaiser's site) I should do #3 leaving 2-3" water over grain bed after infusion then proceeding. So I'll be draining some of the first runnings after vorlauf into BK before mashout.

BTW I use 10 gal round cooler with 3' of braid, I have an as yet unused drip ring.

Thanks

 

[Suthrncomfrt1884]

Personally, I would suggest batch sparging if you're just getting into AG. It's much easier in my opinion, and it's faster.

I use something like your technique in #2, but I think I do my AG batches a bit different from most. I get 75%+ efficiency on all of my brews though, so I'm not too concerned whether I'm doing it "the right way" or not.

I drain first runnings, then add enough boiling water to bring the grains to 170. I then add my sparge water (total volume) at 170, vorlauf, and drain. I could probably get away with raising the sparge water to a high enough temp to raise the grainbed and not use the boiling water... but I've always had problems hitting my temp that way.

 

[oldschool]

You do what you want but I agree. you will love your brew days way more if you batch spathe IMO. the effeciency difference is so little it makes it a no brainer for me. I started fly sparging and had to switch over to a single batch sparge. I even did a "no-sparge" a few weeks ago by accident and only lost 4 points. good luck

 

[Cliff897]

another vote for batch sparging.

Even your mash has been simplified tremendously from the early days of three stage stepped decoction mashing. Modern malts have had their diastatic power so enhanced that complex mashing protocols are all but unnecessary.
Which is not to say you can't use decoction and benefit from it. It's still a useful tool. Just not necessary as it used to be.

 

[Cliff897]

another vote for batch sparging.

Even your mash has been simplified tremendously from the early days of three stage stepped decoction mashing. Modern malts have had their diastatic power so enhanced that complex mashing protocols are all but unnecessary.
Which is not to say you can't use decoction and benefit from it. It's still a useful tool. Just not necessary as it used to be.

 

[Bobby_M]

One way to simplify things quite a bit is to mash at a thickness that will yield exactly 1/2 of your desired preboil volume if you drain the whole tun.

The other half comes from a single sparge infusion at 185F or so. Stir well, vorlauf and drain.

Practical example with 6.5 gallons desired preboil:

12Lb grain
5 gallons (1.67qts/lb) will yield a first runnings volume of about 3.25 gallons after losing 6 quarts to absorption and assuming a little deadspace.

Sparge with 3.25 gallons at 190F (that temp will get the grainbed up to about 168F).

The two equal runoff sizes is the best efficiency you can pull off with two runnings.

 

[Suthrncomfrt1884]

One way to simplify things quite a bit is to mash at a thickness that will yield exactly 1/2 of your desired preboil volume if you drain the whole tun.

The other half comes from a single sparge infusion at 185F or so. Stir well, vorlauf and drain.

Practical example with 6.5 gallons desired preboil:

12Lb grain
5 gallons (1.67qts/lb) will yield a first runnings volume of about 3.25 gallons after losing 6 quarts to absorption and assuming a little deadspace.

Sparge with 3.25 gallons at 190F (that temp will get the grainbed up to about 168F).

The two equal runoff sizes is the best efficiency you can pull off with two runnings.

Are there any negative side effects to a thinner mash? I know thicker mashes can lead to hot spots, but what about thin? I'm assuming it just leads to a higher efficiency, but just want to check.

 

[Bobby_M]

A thin mash, by itself is not the contributor to the higher efficiency unless the thick mash was inhibiting conversion somehow. It's the fact that the runoff is exactly half of the preboil volume.

I would call 1.5 (ish) qts/lb a medium thickness while 1qt is thick and 2qts is thin.


Using my original advice with a bigger grainbill might explain it more.

18lbs of grain x 1.17qts/lb = 5.25 gallons of strike and a first runnings of 3.25 gallons.
Sparge of 3.25 gallons.

If you mash this one at 2qts/lb, you'd run off 7 gallons preboil (A.K.A. No sparge)
At 1.5qts/lb, your sparge would be 1.6 gallons. Again, very disproportionate runoffs and hence low efficiency.

On the flip side, a low grain bill:
8lbs x 2.13qts/lb = 4.25 gallons. Runoff of 3.4 gallons, sparge of 3.1. Close enough.

 

[effinpansy]

Hey thanks,
I did batch sparge on my first two brews. I feel like I figured it out (as a general concept) on the second go 'round. I just want to get the same basic understanding of fly sparging.
It seems that there is no reason to keep any of the first runnings in the grain bed prior to the mash out infusion. I think I want my hlt at proper sparge temp ~170F. So I'll drain first runnings, add enough sparge water (@ 170F) to cover grain 2-3" plus boiling water to stabilize at 160-170F. Then stir well, vorlauf, and comence to spargin'.
Any thoughts?

 

[kryolla]

why are you fly sparging? Is it to increase efficiency? Usually your sparge water is higher than 170* for mashout as the grain in your MT will bring it down

 

[Bobby_M]

Mash out infusions (boiling water) occur before the first vorlauf and runnings. Once you do that you vorlauf and start adding the 170F sparge water on top. Slowly drain out keeping about an inch over the grainbed.

 

[effinpansy]

Thanks again for the answers.
Kryola, I'm wanting to try out fly sparging out of curiosity, to increase efficiency and also because I want to have experience using it as a basic technique. My last brew was a brown ale, batch sparge. I got 70% efficiency, I think (10lbs of base malt plus specialty malts= 76.5 potential grav points, OG=1.052), split two sparges, hit volumes well enough. I thought that it was wierd to have my last sparge run off be such high gravity (didn't weigh it, but there was clearly more sugar in the grain to be had). I know I'm nitpicking, thinking about it too much, or not enough.
BobbyM, thanks I am curious if reaching mash out will increase lauter eff. I have seen so many different sources, some calling mash out optional, others not entirely clear. We'll check it out.

 

[Bobby_M]

In theory it makes sugars a bit more soluble but my estimate is that it doesn't matter much in practice. The primary goal of the mash out temp rise in fly sparging is to denature the enzymes so they don't continue disassembling long chain sugars over the ~60 minute fly sparge. In batch sparging, it doesn't matter.

 

[Hawgbranch]

In theory it makes sugars a bit more soluble but my estimate is that it doesn't matter much in practice. The primary goal of the mash out temp rise in fly sparging is to denature the enzymes so they don't continue disassembling long chain sugars over the ~60 minute fly sparge. In batch sparging, it doesn't matter.

So Bobby, after your 60 or 90 min mash, you just vorlauf and drain? No Mash Out at all? That is what I have been doing. Then I add sparge water at about 190 twice since I sparge with 2 equal volumes.
I have been wondering if I am missing something by not raising temps prior to first runnings.....

 

[Bobby_M]

Any additional solubility you'd gain from the mashout infusion MAY be negated by the reduced sparge volume. The reason I say "may" is that if that infusion volume brought the first runnings volume to be 50% of the total runnings, it would actually increase efficiency. You can see why people could falsely attribute that increase in efficiency as being caused by the mashout temp rise.

One way I've isolated the temperature aspect of the mashout is to raise the mash to 170F via direct heat. Guess what... no efficiency gain.

 

[bja]

One way I've isolated the temperature aspect of the mashout is to raise the mash to 170F via direct heat. Guess what... no efficiency gain.

For my last 5 or 6 brews, I've done almost the opposite and have not noticed any change in efficiency or the finished beer.

I've been cold sparging with 130 degree water from my tap ( I have a tankless water heater). Like I said, I have not noticed one bit of difference in anything.