Looking to move into electric brewing, looking for advice

[Qhrumphf]

So here's the situation:

As I've seen in a few threads on here, I'm a small apartment brewer with a garbage electric range that can't come near a full boil. I've been managing with partial boils (and occasional full boil small batches) for a few years, but I'm looking to step up my game. I think I've got a fair amount of this figured out, but there's some stuff I'm still unclear on, and would like advice from those in the know before I actually start buying hardware.

I know very little about wiring outside of what I've been reading the last couple weeks. Here's what I know:

I have access to a 240V/40A circuit (my electric range).
I have access to another 120V/20A circuit (my stackable washer/dryer's dryer outlet). The outlets are within a few feet of each other in my kitchen where I'd be brewing. Neither appear to be GFCI protected in the breaker box or at the outlet.

My dryer outlet is the typical NEMA 5 outlet. The range is a NEMA 10-50 outlet.

Any alterations of building wiring or breakers are absolutely out of the question (my maintenance department has a hard time making necessary repairs, let alone making voluntary alterations, and I'm prohibited from doing it myself even if I knew how)

From what I've gathered, I can run a large element off of the range outlet (I was leaning towards either a 2500W or 3500W ULWD element), and a smaller one off of the dryer outlet (a 1500W LWD element). The larger element would get mounted inside my kettle, and the smaller one I'd build a heat stick for both heating my MLT/HLT, and supplementary use if needed in the kettle.

Here's what I'd like to know:

-My kettle's 10 gallons, so I'm not planning on going more than 5, maybe 6 gallon batches at the most. Is a 3500W element going to be overkill?

-The stick should be easy, as I can easily find inline GFCI boxes with the right plug/amperage ratings. I'm racking my brain with how to run a GFCI through the stove outlet without having to alter the apartment wiring.

-For the mounted element, I'm looking at following The Electric Brewery's build for mounting: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/heating-elements?page=2. I know the plug and element configuration will be different. Are there any other major changes I need to worry about based on what I've got to work with?

-Rather than simply unplugging either element, I was thinking about installing simple on/off switches inline (at this point in time control systems would make this too cost prohibitive). Any recommendations?

Any help would be appreciated.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Sounds like you have plenty of power available. The answer to your question really depends on your budget, skill set, and level of sophistication desired???

Simplest and cheapest approach would just be to build a heatstick or kettle mount an element powered on the 120v / 20 amp circuit to supplement your stove. Even a little 1500w element will make a night and day difference over what you currently have. You could use a simple gfci cord or plug-in portable gfci.

A better, yet more complex approach is to use 240v, this will require a gfci disconnect and a power controller depending on element size.

Search around a bit, lots of people have come up w/ many ways to apartment brew.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I've seen the spa panel GFCI disconnect thing mentioned all over the place, the problem is that all the ones I've seen have to be wired into the breaker. I am explicitly prohibited from doing that under my lease, and I can say without a doubt that my landlord will not do it for me. I don't know if there's a NEMA-10 inline 240V GFCI out there or not, but if there is, I can't seem to find one. Is it a bad idea to try and put the wiring for a spa panel through a NEMA 10 plug so I can just plug it in?

 

[Chrisl77]

All you should need to make a spa panel that can plug into your range outlet is one of these. Maybe make a wood stand to mount the spa panel onto that you can set on your countertop.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Problem is, my range is the older 3 wire (hot hot neutral, I think), not the newer 4 wire. I'm getting the impression that spa panels are 4 wire, and I don't know if they're compatible (I am not an electrician and inclined to say no). If there's 3 wire spa panels out there, I'm probably good to go.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Problem is, my range is the older 3 wire (hot hot neutral, I think), not the newer 4 wire. I'm getting the impression that spa panels are 4 wire, and I don't know if they're compatible (I am not an electrician and inclined to say no). If there's 3 wire spa panels out there, I'm probably good to go.

Never mind, looks like there are threads on here explaining how to wire it for 3 wires. Panel itself doesn't seem to matter, just how I wire it. Just can't go 3 wire to 4 wire and stay in code.

Thanks for the help!

 

[P-J]

Problem is, my range is the older 3 wire (hot hot neutral, I think), not the newer 4 wire. I'm getting the impression that spa panels are 4 wire, and I don't know if they're compatible (I am not an electrician and inclined to say no). If there's 3 wire spa panels out there, I'm probably good to go.

In that case you can set up the Spa Panel this way:

Hope this helps.

 

[wilserbrewer]

If you want to still use the crappy stove supplemented w/ electric, the 120v 20 amp will be able to supply enough power to assist you to easily brew 5 gallon batches in a reasonable time. The 240v would be better, but it will be more involved and more costly, depends on your preference really???

 

[P-J]

Never mind, looks like there are threads on here explaining how to wire it for 3 wires. Panel itself doesn't seem to matter, just how I wire it. Just can't go 3 wire to 4 wire and stay in code.

Thanks for the help!

Not true.

Just can't go 3 wire to 4 wire and stay in code

The Spa Panel is a plug in device and as such can be wired the way I show in my last post without issue. The NEC and building code does not apply beyond the home outlet.

Edit: And the application and wiring I illustrate is indeed safe to implement.

 

[Qhrumphf]

If you want to still use the crappy stove supplemented w/ electric, the 120v 20 amp will be able to supply enough power to assist you to easily brew 5 gallon batches in a reasonable time. The 240v would be better, but it will be more involved and more costly, depends on your preference really???

My plan at this point is to pull the trigger on the heat stick in the next couple weeks since it'll be a lot cheaper and easier, and then pull the trigger on the 240V over the next couple months.

Any input on control? I'm thinking if I go with a 2500W element on the 240V it'll be small enough that I won't need a control system, and could just go with an on/off switch. Would the 3500W be too much for 5 gallons without control? Or, is there a really cheap method of control?

 

[wilserbrewer]

Just guessing here, but 3500w for a 6 gal boil will be a pretty good boil, might not need control but might splash a little bit out of the kettle...that is one small advantage of using a smaller uncontrolled element in conjunction w/ the stove top in that you can use the stoves element for control.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Not true.
The Spa Panel is a plug in device and as such can be wired the way I show in my last post without issue. The NEC and building code does not apply beyond the home outlet.

Edit: And the application and wiring I illustrate is indeed safe to implement.

I saw that diagram shortly after my last post. Was exactly what I needed. Searching the forum I see a lot of threads arguing back and forth saying that while 3 to 4 wiring is safe, it's not code compliant. Wasn't aware that the code didn't apply. Like I said, not an electrician, haven't read the actual code.

Is there a way to rig it up for 3 wire output as well as input? Thought being that I could leave the panel plugged in indefinitely, and simply put the right outlet in the panel, and then plug my range into the panel when I'm not brewing. Save me having to move the range every time I want to brew. If not, I can work with that too.

 

[P-J]

Qhrumphf,

Please be very careful in your plans and consideration. By design and environment you are always brewing in a "wet" area. I firmly believe that GFCI protection for your brewery is a critical issue. That is the reason for incorporating the Spa Panel & GFCI - !!!

Please consider it and be careful.

Wishing you well. I'm done. (sigh)

 

[wilserbrewer]

I believe the answer is yes...but I will default to the the all knowing PJ on this one...cheers!

 

[Qhrumphf]

Qhrumphf,

Pleasee be very careful in your plans and consideration. By design and enviroument you are always brewing in a "wet" area. I firmly believe that GFCI protection for your brewery is a critical issue. That is the reason for incorporating the Spa Panel & GFCI - !!!

Please consider it and be careful.

Wishing you well. I'm done. (sigh)

I'm sensing frustration and not sure why. I'm asking questions because I'm trying to make it as easy as possible while still maintaining safety.

 

[P-J]

I'm sensing frustration and not sure why. I'm asking questions because I'm trying to make it as easy as possible while still maintaining safety.

Frustration? Yes. It seems like every time I say something, there is a "yea, but" reply.

I'll wait a while before I reply again. This will give you time to really think things through and decide what you intend to do.

Wishing you well.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I don't know how I've given you any "yeah but" replies. Just asked a further question. But I'll take your word for it, and I'm thankful the help, for the record.

I know the end product that I want- a mounted element to replace my stove top and a stick for HLT/MLT heating plus supplementary use in the kettle. I said that in the first post. But exactly how I configure it depends on what my options are, and that's what I'm trying to figure out.

It looks like the simplest solution is going to be the 1500W stick with a plug in GFCI, then a spa panel configured according to P-J's diagram on the first page to run a 2500W mounted element so I don't need control, and then just unplug the elements to shut them off. From what I've read here and elsewhere, that should be pretty easy, safe, effective for what I need, and relatively inexpensive. Right?