Lme to grain

[impatient one]

I want to duplicate a kit recipe. It called for 6.6 lbs dark lme. I want to convert the lme to grain but don't know what type of grain to use. I also don't understand the conversion part of the formula. I found that on brewers friend. I'd rather use all grain. Is it cost effective to do this, or am I just crazy spinning my wheels? I'm not above researching, but I've tried for 2 days with no real answer. I'm trying to reproduce a porter. I also found, (but lost) a recipe from a lady brewer that won awards that had a link to the recipe. Just incase someone knows what I'm talking about.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I want to convert the lme to grain but don't know what type of grain to use.

Dark LME is often Briess Traditional Dark LME. Their product information PDF includes a "grain bill":

54% Bonlander® Munich Malt 10L, 30% Base malt, 13% Caramel Malt 60L, 3% Black Malt​

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I want to duplicate a kit recipe.

Does the kit supplier have an all-grain equivalent of the kit?

 

[fluketamer]

"Does the kit supplier have an all-grain equivalent of the kit?"

this .

morebeer's recipes show the recipe for everyone of there AG kits with a extract version and an all grain version. this will give you rough idea of the conversion rates/ flavors. for example:

obviously take this as a rough estimate of flavor and gravity points.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

"I want to duplicate a kit recipe. It called for 6.6 lbs dark lme."

The use of significant amounts of Amber/Dark extracts in kits is a characteristic of one of the other big online stores (there may be other stores that do the same). For these extract kits, the conversion from all-grain to extract probably didn't use the traditional "convert base malts equivalent 'single malt' extracts".

With these recipes, it's often easier to either find the all grain kit recipe or find a different recipe.

OTOH, I helped convert a 1990s extract recipe (so there's no all-grain equivalent) for a special event and the brewer reported tasty results. So it (convert extract to all-grain) can be done.

 

[impatient one]

It's brewers best

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

It's brewers best

And the name of the kit is?

 

[impatient one]

 

[impatient one]

It was my first brew ever, and it was a big success through out the family. Just wanted to see if I can do better

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Looks like the kit ingredients may have changed since you brewed it. I see only 3.3 # of Dark LME.

 

[impatient one]

I'll have to pull the original recipe. I might be wrong

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Let's go back to #1:

I want to convert the lme to grain but don't know what type of grain to use. I also don't understand the conversion part of the formula.

If you think it would be helpful, I can convert 3.3# Traditional Dark LME grain bill to # of malts.

 

[impatient one]

I was wrong. It's 3.3lb of dark lme. Conversation would be greatly appreciated

 

[impatient one]

But I do want to learn how for next time

 

[mac_1103]

morebeer's recipes show the recipe for everyone of there AG kits with a extract version and an all grain version. this will give you rough idea of the conversion rates/ flavors.

They actually sell three versions of most of their kits - DME, LME and all-grain. And another nice thing is that they put all three recipe versions on the same sheet. But I seem to recall noticing that some of them are not exact conversions. There may be good reasons for that.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'll post the grain bill here & walk through what I did in the next post.

For 3.3# of Dark LME and 75% mash efficiency, I get

With the high amount of Munich 10L, the overall DP is estimated at 65, so a longer mash to ensure complete conversion may be necessary.

 

[mac_1103]

With the high amount of Munich 10L, the overall DP is estimated at 65, so a longer mash to ensure complete conversion may be necessary.

One example of a good reason why some of the MoreBeer kits may not be exact conversions.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

This will walk you through the math involved. It uses Gravity Points (GP), Points Per Pound Per Gallon (PPG), and mash efficiency - which are not explained here.

In a follow-up post, I'll show a way to get the answer by having Brewers Friend "do the math".

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First, find the PPG (points per pound per gallon) and DP (diastatic power) for each of the malts involved. Calculate the number of GPs (gravity points) needed.

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Next, calculate the GP contribution of each malt (Munich 10L will contribute 54% of the 119 GPs):

Next, calculate the amount of malt needed to make that many gravity points at 75% efficiency. For Munich 10L, this is 64.2 / 27. 27 is the PPG (36) times mash efficiency (75%).

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[WouldBeBrewmaster]

Over the years LD Carlson has gone back and forth using Briess LME and private label LME made by Coopers in their Brewers Best kits.

I’d use the Briess conversion above or something similar. Close enough is good enough, RDWHAHB.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

With Brewers Friend recipe calculator, set the

• batch size and boil size to 3.3 gal
• efficiency to 75%

Add the four malts (level the amount at zero for now)

Make a rough estimate at the amount of malts. LME is 36 PPG. A 3.3# container has 118 GPs.

At 75% mash efficiency and a 36 PPG base malt, we'll need roughly 4.5 # of malt (118 / 27 ). Each # of mashed malt will contribute roughly 27 PPG.

Add 4.5# to the Munich 10L entry & verify the OG is around 36.

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For each of the malts, amount of grains the weight is roughly 4.5 * the percentage in the grain bill (54%, 30%, 13%, 3%).

 

[impatient one]

Thank you all for your invaluable information and insights. I'm printing and filing this for later use. Thank you all again

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

One example of a good reason why some of the MoreBeer kits may not be exact conversions.

Over the years LD Carlson has gone back and forth using Briess LME and private label LME made by Coopers in their Brewers Best kits.

I’d use the Briess conversion above or something similar. Close enough is good enough, RDWHAHB.

Also, back in in the mid-2010s (link), Briess made a number of "specialty" LME products, including a porter.

 

[fluketamer]

They actually sell three versions of most of their kits - DME, LME and all-grain. And another nice thing is that they put all three recipe versions on the same sheet. But I seem to recall noticing that some of them are not exact conversions. There may be good reasons for that.

i thought for sure i saw three versions (lme,dme,AG) on some of there kits but the first i pulled up was the citra session and i figured i must have been nipping too much but thanks for confirming.

this kit was decent AG btw with 90 /10 pilsner/corn
these are prolly not super accurate but i use the morebeer recipe sheets as a quick rough lazy conversion often .

 

[camonick]

I also found, (but lost) a recipe from a lady brewer that won awards that had a link to the recipe. Just incase someone knows what I'm talking about.

Was it a porter or brown ale recipe? There’s a pretty famous brown ale recipe called Janet’s Brown ale.

 

[impatient one]

Porter

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Theory: the 'original' Peanut Butter porter kit used Briess Porter LME. I do not (yet) have evidence that the kit was available during the time frame that Briess Porter LME was available. OTOH, having a LME-based Porter recipe where one could "just" add peanut butter flavoring seems to have appeal.

Internet Archives captured a recipe instructions PDF (link) from Mar 2020 with the following ingredients.

Note that the current kit uses Brewers Crystals (vs Amber DME) and adds 2 oz Coffee Malt.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@impatient one : when did you first brew this kit (Peanut Butter Porter)?

 

[impatient one]

June of this year

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

It was my first brew ever, and it was a big success through out the family. Just wanted to see if I can do better

June of this year

Thanks.

You should have the information you need to create an "all-grain" version of that recipe. If not, let us know and we'll fill in the missing pieces.

If you post your "all-grain" recipe for review (either here or in another topic), we'll give you feedback.

 

[impatient one]

Thanks again to all of you

 

[bike2brew]

I'll post the grain bill here & walk through what I did in the next post.

For 3.3# of Dark LME and 75% mash efficiency, I get

View attachment 858855​

With the high amount of Munich 10L, the overall DP is estimated at 65, so a longer mash to ensure complete conversion may be necessary.

Is there a guide line that helps with the relationship between DP and mash time?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'm not aware of a human created table or equation that one could use to estimate mash time based on DP.

 

[bike2brew]

Ok thanks. I was just wondering if there was a functional relationship based on your comment which intutively makes sense. I generally pay attention to my overall DP with the belief that higher is better and intuitively shoot for 100 more or less. So for the approximation of grain equivalent to dark LME I would play with the percentage of Munich to 2-row to achieve acceptable DP for a 60 min mash. However, I don't believe there is anything sacred about a 60 min mash either, just what I shoot for to keep my recipes simple.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

So for the approximation of grain equivalent to dark LME I would play with the percentage of Munich to 2-row to achieve acceptable DP for a 60 min mash.

Rather than adjust grain percentages, I would use the grain bill 'as is' with a 90 min mash, then test for a complete conversion.

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Mostly a review/reminder: my 'strategy' for converting extract kits to all grain recipes is

1. find the matching all grain kit and use that grain bill,
2. but if the all grain kit is not available, find a similar all grain recipe,
3. but if there are special circumstances,
   • attempt to convert the individual styles of extract into an equivalent grain bill
   • combine the equivalent grain bills (if necessary)
   • review the grain bill percentages for 'reasonableness'

In this situation, the conversion request had special circumstances.