Limiting O2 Exposure

[Morrey]

Ss 14G Uni Tank. Trying to be O2 free as much as possible: During dry hop additions at the end of active fermentation or the addition of gelatin when crashing, I open the Tri-clamp 3" port (where the pressure relief valve normally sits) on top of the tank for access. This becomes an open hole for O2 exposure. I am pushing CO2 in thru the BO cane while I have the top port open in an attempt for the escaping CO2 to keep O2 from dropping into the tank. I know I am not 100% O2 free with this technique, but what else can I do? Maybe someone is using a technique I haven't thought of....thanks!

 

[Smellyglove]

Sounds like a good procedure, if you have a positive pressure in the tank then ambient air shouldn't be able to get in through the open port.

 

[Shwagger]

I believe it takes a lot more exposure than that to cause any real side effects

 

[Morrey]

Sounds like a good procedure, if you have a positive pressure in the tank then ambient air shouldn't be able to get in through the open port.

That's all I can actually think to try unless I get a whole bunch more complicated and involved than I am now. I suppose some O2 may sneak in, but it wont be as much if I have outward flow of gas preventing inflow.

I believe it takes a lot more exposure than that to cause any real side effects

Some of the LODO purists would say ANY exposure is TOO much and I can follow that idea in theory. But in real life application this is darn near improbable w/o going to extreme lengths. I'm doing the best I can with what I have to work with...at least for now.

 

[Smellyglove]

Just do whatever you can in every step. If one starts thinking "It'll probably be fine" here and there, you'll not make as good beer as you can.

 

[Dcpcooks]

You could rig up a tri clamp set up to hold and purge your dry hop. A butterfly valve, a 3”triclamp tube, a 3”cap with a port for gas in and a pressure release.

You could fill the tube with hops and seal it up, purge with co2 then dump the butterfly valve which would drop the purged hops into the fermentor.

I don’t know that I’d be willing to spend the cash but you could rig up a unit that would allow you to purge the o2.

Have you noticed an issue or are you just worried about potential o2 exposure. My thought is pro brewers are concerned about shelf life and o2 exposure is a real concern for viable shelf life. I’m not sure [emoji848]Home brewers need to be as concerned with LoDo as it’s been presented at this point.

If you purge with co2 as your adding hops then pushing to kegs that have been purged previously in a o2 free loop I think your doing a good job of reducing the risk. Without a DO meter it’s very hard to speculate on risks without any quantitative data. I have looked at the LoDo stuff but I keep coming back to milling the grains. Unless your purging the mill with argon or co2 your oxidizing the grains and I can’t see how underletting the mash is going to stop that.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m a fan of reducing exposure across the process but I’m not convinced it’s as big a thing as it’s made out to be.

 

[Smellyglove]

Post fermentation oxidation is a way bigger concern than HSA. It should be adressed first.
I feel HSA is more "hifi", like if you buy one very expensive piece of equipment, it will only give you a few % better experience, if you have decent bits and pieces already. While post-fermentation is like going from one speaker to two, in a stereo-setup.

Pre fermentation will most likely not be noticable if you botch the post fermentation.

 

[Dcpcooks]

I get the cold side part of the process. I’ve been using a closed loop and pushing beers for several years now. The only time I expose beer to air is to dry hop. For me that a few moments to crack the 3”port add the dry hop and purge with co2 before sealing it up again.

Morrey using positive pressure is a step better than purging.
A triclamp closed hops dispenser would be another step better.

A DO meter is the key in my opinion. Without it your speculating.

 

[Morrey]

The truth of the matter is I honestly don't know how much difference my O2 elimination efforts are making...or not making for that matter. Back some time ago a pro-brewer noted mild oxidation in my beer but it had been in keg for 3 months and I know for sure my process (back then) was full of bullet holes like open fermenter (post fermentation) siphoning into open keg. Since then, I have worked on:

Improved fermenters ie Uni-Tanks
O2 Free Closed System Transfers
Using BtB in the mash and boil
Campden in strike water (always have)
Filling kegs with Sani-Clean and pushing out with CO2 to maintain purged keg
Pushing beer out of uni tank into keg using spunding valve on keg for pressure relief

There are many cold side techniques that may or may not be helpful, and as outlined, I am doing at least a few LODO ideas on the cold side.

I agree that post-fermentation exposure is the biggie and my focus has been there. I'll continue to push for the best I can do with what I have w/o spending unnecessarily for a minuscule amount of gain. I truly feel at this stage of the game, it takes significant process changes to make very slight forward progress. Agree, Don, a DO meter would be awesome...but expensive. I'm making good beer now and should be happy with my efforts. Always looking to improve....may be a fault to feel this way.

 

[Smellyglove]

When you reach a certain "level", it will be like the "hifi"-thing I mentioned a few posts above. We're always looking to improve, even if there's little to improve, or at least the gains will be smaller, comparing to if you brew without co2 or closed transfers, which means we'll be looking into more entrapments and advanced stuff, which also costs more than just flushing the fermentor after adding hops. Even lushing the fermentor is a huge improvement and an investment for those who don't have co2. There will most likly be returns, but diminishing returns for each step you advance, comparing to the first steps.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Could you dry hop in a purged Keg, simply use a stainless basket or a nylon bag , purge the keg and do a closed transfer under pressure?

as for gelatin, i have thought of usingf a PET bottle and a carbonation cap and putting it under pressure, say 20psi and introducing it to my fermentation vessel that way obviously leaving a small vent for the pressure to balance out and sealing it immediately after infusion with gelatin. I haven’t actually tried it that way but its an idea.

 

[h22lude]

Few things you can do for dry hopping and keeping low oxygen...

1) Add dry hops during high krausen (day or two after pitching yeast). A small amount of oxygen will get in but the yeast will scavenge it very quickly.
2) Add a dry hop catcher like @Dcpcooks said. Add a butterfly valve to the lid. A tee on top of that. The two can be a cap. The side port of the tee would be a nipple for a blow off tube and CO2 tube. When fermentation is going keep the valve open and attach a blow off tube to the nipple. This will purge the tee of oxygen. When ready to add dry hops, close the valve, attach a CO2 tube to the nipple and open the top. Let CO2 run at a low pressure and add the dry hops. Close the lid and turn off CO2. Open valve. Replace CO2 tube with blow off tube.
3) Sanitize a keg. Drain sanitizer and add dry hops in a bag hanging from the lid. Attach the blow off tube from fermentor to the beer out post. Attach blow off tube from gas in post to jar of sanitizer. The CO2 created from fermentation will purging the keg. You now have a fully O2 free keg with dry hops in it. Do a closed system transfer to the keg. You just dry hopped your beer. If you want to remove the hops, you would need to do another transfer to a serving keg.

I think dry hopping is the only part of the brewing process that hasn't been fully locked down for low oxygen. Some good ideas but nothing that is real easy to do besides #1 but that still lets in a small amount of O2.

 

[Morrey]

Few things you can do for dry hopping and keeping low oxygen...

1) Add dry hops during high krausen (day or two after pitching yeast). A small amount of oxygen will get in but the yeast will scavenge it very quickly.
2) Add a dry hop catcher like @Dcpcooks said. Add a butterfly valve to the lid. A tee on top of that. The two can be a cap. The side port of the tee would be a nipple for a blow off tube and CO2 tube. When fermentation is going keep the valve open and attach a blow off tube to the nipple. This will purge the tee of oxygen. When ready to add dry hops, close the valve, attach a CO2 tube to the nipple and open the top. Let CO2 run at a low pressure and add the dry hops. Close the lid and turn off CO2. Open valve. Replace CO2 tube with blow off tube.
3) Sanitize a keg. Drain sanitizer and add dry hops in a bag hanging from the lid. Attach the blow off tube from fermentor to the beer out post. Attach blow off tube from gas in post to jar of sanitizer. The CO2 created from fermentation will purging the keg. You now have a fully O2 free keg with dry hops in it. Do a closed system transfer to the keg. You just dry hopped your beer. If you want to remove the hops, you would need to do another transfer to a serving keg.

I think dry hopping is the only part of the brewing process that hasn't been fully locked down for low oxygen. Some good ideas but nothing that is real easy to do besides #1 but that still lets in a small amount of O2.

Your ideas are excellent. I am currently using idea #1 when I do NE IPA's with a hop addition with 20% fermentation left to go. Like you say, O2 will get scavenged due to active fermentation. I still like to do a post-fermentation dry hop as well, so that's my trouble zone.

#2 would be ideal albeit a bit complicated on the uni tank. I am using 7" long mesh hop tubes (2.75" diameter) so this further complicates a pressure chamber for the hop drop. I'll bet some bright engineer will address this concept for LODO purists in the near future.

#3 has my wheels turning. I like this idea and a process I can manage easily. Typically I fill the keg with sani-clean to the brimming over stage, affix the lid and push sanitizer out with CO2 maintaining a close to 100% pure CO2 environment. I have always wanted to hang my hop tube in the keg, but soaking the hops in sanitizer is not appealing...LOL. Your way will steer around that obstacle.

My only question is will the volume of the CO2 produced during active fermentation be enough to fully purge the O2 in the tank. Or will O2 mix in with the CO2 and only get the job partially done? Hard to say w/o some volume calculations. OR....I could fill the keg with sanitizer just to the bottom of the hanging hop tube, seal, push out saintizer and purge. This would get at least 75% of the O2 evacuated, then the remaining amount could be purged per your suggestion. Something to work on for sure.

 

[h22lude]

Your ideas are excellent. I am currently using idea #1 when I do NE IPA's with a hop addition with 20% fermentation left to go. Like you say, O2 will get scavenged due to active fermentation. I still like to do a post-fermentation dry hop as well, so that's my trouble zone.

#2 would be ideal albeit a bit complicated on the uni tank. I am using 7" long mesh hop tubes (2.75" diameter) so this further complicates a pressure chamber for the hop drop. I'll bet some bright engineer will address this concept for LODO purists in the near future.

#3 has my wheels turning. I like this idea and a process I can manage easily. Typically I fill the keg with sani-clean to the brimming over stage, affix the lid and push sanitizer out with CO2 maintaining a close to 100% pure CO2 environment. I have always wanted to hang my hop tube in the keg, but soaking the hops in sanitizer is not appealing...LOL. Your way will steer around that obstacle.

My only question is will the volume of the CO2 produced during active fermentation be enough to fully purge the O2 in the tank. Or will O2 mix in with the CO2 and only get the job partially done? Hard to say w/o some volume calculations. OR....I could fill the keg with sanitizer just to the bottom of the hanging hop tube, seal, push out saintizer and purge. This would get at least 75% of the O2 evacuated, then the remaining amount could be purged per your suggestion. Something to work on for sure.

#2 can get expensive with TC fittings too.

Yes with #3, fermentation will produce enough CO2 to fully purge the keg. There was a post here about it (can't remember when it was). Someone did the calculations out and it is plenty of CO2 to purge 100%. Bryan on the low oxygen site has also done it with great success.

 

[beersk]

Post fermentation oxidation is a way bigger concern than HSA. It should be adressed first.
I feel HSA is more "hifi", like if you buy one very expensive piece of equipment, it will only give you a few % better experience, if you have decent bits and pieces already. While post-fermentation is like going from one speaker to two, in a stereo-setup.

Pre fermentation will most likely not be noticable if you botch the post fermentation.

Aptly put!