Legal Questions - Large Brew

[BrewKnurd]

Ironically I have a fast car and zero tickets

That's what I bring up as well. People get all bent out of shape about brewing legalities, yet I know all of those people break other laws. I suppose it's just the hypocrisy that gets to me.

There is zero hypocrisy in people who break any law answering that yes, it is illegal to do what the op is asking. A serial killer could say "yes, that's illegal" and it wouldn't be hypocritical. It would be honest, and the truth. That's not hypocrisy.

 

[KYB]

There is zero hypocrisy in people who break any law answering that yes, it is illegal to do what the op is asking. A serial killer could say "yes, that's illegal" and it wouldn't be hypocritical. It would be honest, and the truth. That's not hypocrisy.

Part of my opinion comes from other identical threads. Yes I agree with what you said, however, certain people go further than stating it is illegal, implying they would never do anything of the sort, when in fact they do.

 

[SittingDuck]

. However some people act like it's such a terrible crime to get reimbursed for your efforts.

That's because it is, in fact, a crime.

And you recognize the difference between capable of operating and operating, right?

You might think it's not a problem and people would be cool with just one little illegal manufacturing and distribution charge, but consider this: if you have a felony, any felony, relates to alcohol or not, you cannot apply to even get a liquor license to sell drinks at a bar in many jurisdictions. Add in a liquor related arrest and many more layers of liscensing and paperwork and see how that works out for you.

Oh, and as far as your argument that this is small time and the law us only there to stop big underground breweries, ask all the guys in jail for a couple ounces of coke or weed how well the, I'm just a little guy, these laws only apply to the big dealers excuse worked out for them. See how the IRS responds when you tell them you only cheated on your taxes a little bit.

 

[KYB]

That's because it is, in fact, a crime.

And you recognize the difference between capable of operating and operating, right?

You might think it's not a problem and people would be cool with just one little illegal manufacturing and distribution charge, but consider this: if you have a felony, any felony, relates to alcohol or not, you cannot apply to even get a liquor license to sell drinks at a bar in many jurisdictions. Add in a liquor related arrest and many more layers of liscensing and paperwork and see how that works out for you.

Oh, and as far as your argument that this is small time and the law us only there to stop big underground breweries, ask all the guys in jail for a couple ounces of coke or weed how well the, I'm just a little guy, these laws only apply to the big dealers excuse worked out for them. See how the IRS responds when you tell them you only cheated on your taxes a little bit.

While it's a crime, I wouldn't say it is TERRIBLE. That was my point. Coke and Weed are illegal. Beer and homebrewing is legal. Your comparisons don't line up. I could use that and say possession punishment is determined by the amount. Here (and many other places) you can't get arrested for a small amount of weed anymore. It's a citation. Unless you are blatantly selling homebrew, in the highly unlikely event you go to court, I don't think it would be too hard to get out of.

 

[Calichusetts]

This might be one of the funniest "lets make illegal activities seem legal" threads yet.

When your in jail...maybe consider giving the judge a "gift" of a couple thousands and ask him to give you the "gift" of a not guilty...whats the harm?

I used to wonder why the US was rising in the world corruption ranking...these rationales do a lot to help me understand that

 

[BrewKnurd]

While it's a crime, I wouldn't say it is TERRIBLE. That was my point. Coke and Weed are illegal. Beer and homebrewing is legal. Your comparisons don't line up.

except that his comparison was weed or coke to selling homebrew. Which is illegal. So yes, comparisons line up. Both are illegal. Your comparison of weed being illegal to beer being legal, on the other hand, is irrelevant to this discussion, which isn't about possessing, drinking or brewing beer, which are the legal aspects of homebrew.

 

[Special Hops]

Tell them to find a local brewery to sponsor their event. Seriously. The potential legal issues far outweigh the benefits. Plus a small local brewery looking to get their name out may be happy to supply the beer for publicity.

A few years ago a friend asked me to brew beer for a charity event fundraiser. Basically I would brew beer, they would pay me for ingredients and something for my trouble, and the the people at the event get beer. I turned it down because of all the reasons stated above. I suggested for him to contact the local brewery in town. The brewery ended up supplying several kegs of beer for their event free of charge. Win-win-win for everyone

 

[IffyG]

Yep, here we go again. So many perfect citizens come out of the woodwork in this forum. The laws are in place so you're not running an underground brewery operation avoiding taxes (but laws are laws illegal blah blah blah). The ATF/TTB isn't going to swarm in and jail you for brewing up some beer for an event and someone paying for the ingredients/trouble. I haven't been to jail yet... Multiple Sherrifs know of my brewing as well. Now if you were doing this often on a large scale, that's a different story.

Worst case, they bail you out.

Flame on...

The last thing the homebrew community needs is people advocating that it is OK to break the law. This is especially true because there are still places were this hobby is illegal and a bunch of people saying its OK to break the law does not reflect the community as a whole in a good light...

 

[Phunhog]

The last thing the homebrew community needs is people advocating that it is OK to break the law. This is especially true because there are still places were this hobby is illegal and a bunch of people saying its OK to break the law does not reflect the community as a whole in a good light...

But what if the law is antiquated, backwards, and lacks common sense? The only way to bring these laws "out" is for them to be exposed by normal, law abiding citizens. Do you really think that people aren't homebrewing in MS and AL because it is "illegal"?
It seems like homebrew law change when someone DOES get in trouble. I am thinking specifically Oregon. They got the law changed in their favor because the antiquated law was shown to be useless....but it took someone to get in trouble before lawmakers took notice.

 

[derek81]

Im sure if you got paid to appear and not to brew it would be fine lol just be sure to bring party favors for everyone.

 

[IffyG]

But what if the law is antiquated, backwards, and lacks common sense? The only way to bring these laws "out" is for them to be exposed by normal, law abiding citizens. Do you really think that people aren't homebrewing in MS and AL because it is "illegal"?
It seems like homebrew law change when someone DOES get in trouble. I am thinking specifically Oregon. They got the law changed in their favor because the antiquated law was shown to be useless....but it took someone to get in trouble before lawmakers took notice.

Breaking the law because of a poorly written or interpreted statute is a far different animal than advocating breaking a law when you are fully cognizant of the law.

 

[thasnazzle]

Something to take into account might be this: how likely are these laws to be enforced? If it's a private-ish party, it seems like the risk would be almost zero.

disclaimer: nothing i say should be taken as legal advice. i am not a licensed attorney. follow this at your own risk.

 

[Phunhog]

Breaking the law because of a poorly written or interpreted statute is a far different animal than advocating breaking a law when you are fully cognizant of the law.

Agreed! But here is an example of the poorly written law pertaining to homebrewing in CA..."You are allowed to remove beer from your home for competitions, tastings and judgings"
Ok......so what constitutes a competition, tasting, or judging? I know recently in the Bay Area a group of homebrewers had a tasting where people paid 20 bucks each to "judge" the beers for a "competition". All the money was donated to charity. The point is that it is questionable thus hard to enforce.

 

[step]

I told myself not to but...

Nothing irritates me more than a post that says "I am about to do something sketchy... what do you think?"

I mean really?!?! If you want to do something that you feel is a bit on the shady side than don't come on the internet and ask "should I do this?" If I was to have a personal conversation on this topic I would say go for it!!! Of course I have to temper that with... follow your local laws. Seriously though, if you have some sort of moral issue with a choice you are about to make and you come on the internet to ask its opinion then you are of low personal strength. If you believe in doing something... do it!!! Don't ask a bunch of strangers what they think.

End Rant

 

[udt89]

Did someone answer this......

If he brews and donates its ok? With no involvement from said third party?

 

[Calichusetts]

I told myself not to but...

Nothing irritates me more than a post that says "I am about to do something sketchy... what do you think?"

I mean really?!?! If you want to do something that you feel is a bit on the shady side than don't come on the internet and ask "should I do this?" If I was to have a personal conversation on this topic I would say go for it!!! Of course I have to temper that with... follow your local laws. Seriously though, if you have some sort of moral issue with a choice you are about to make and you come on the internet to ask its opinion then you are of low personal strength. If you believe in doing something... do it!!! Don't ask a bunch of strangers what they think.

End Rant

+1

Why isn't this closed yet?

 

[prrriiide]

Ironically I have a fast car and zero tickets

That's what I bring up as well. People get all bent out of shape about brewing legalities, yet I know all of those people break other laws. I suppose it's just the hypocrisy that gets to me. Yes, it is illegal, and there is no way around that. It's been established in 100 threads. Like you said, speeding is also illegal. If you go 1mph over the speed limit, a cop isn't going to pull you over. There is a limit so people are driving crazy fast.

Yeah, it's all illegal, but at the same time, 80 in a 70 won't get you Federal charges and the IRS up your backside with an accountant and a microscope. Unless you are transporting homebrew in a Maserati you clearly can't afford...

not trying to be a jerk about this stuff. i'd love to start a nanobrewery, abide by all state laws and do it right. but until i get there, i'd also love to share the brews with as many people as possible. Hoping this could be the one step needed before doing it all real.

always love Revvys 100%. respect.

so i suppose it was more of a moral question all along. and it'll probably be worth it.

Will it be worth it if you get caught? Because if you do, you will NEVER get to legally open a microbrewery. They ask questions like that in the TTB questionnaire, you know. If you get busted for something like that, you can't even have your name associated with any brewing operations.

 

[TTB-J]

You should consult an experienced attorney licensed in the appropriate jurisdiction or, at the very least, ask for an interpretation from your local alcoholic beverage regulatory agency. You should not rely on any statements or any inferences from statements made in this forum to form judgments on the legality of your actions.

 

[Lucky_Chicken]

You should consult an experienced attorney licensed in the appropriate jurisdiction or, at the very least, ask for an interpretation from your local alcoholic beverage regulatory agency. You should not rely on any statements or any inferences from statements made in this forum to form judgments on the legality of your actions.

TTB... do you work there? or is that just a coincidence? either way +1

 

[frozt]

I didn't see a concise answer to this particular situation: If a friend comes to you having already bought the ingredients, can you brew the batch and give it back (for free)? Also, what if you only gave half of it back?

 

[zeg]

Did someone answer this......

If he brews and donates its ok? With no involvement from said third party?

If giving out beer brewed without a license is legal, then this might be ok.

However, in the circumstances described, he is going to have an extremely hard time convincing anyone that this is a true description of events. Courts don't typically look forgivingly upon those who try to skirt around laws this way. They're just not going to buy it (nor would any of the "give out party favors" type charades fool anyone).

If you're going to break this law, you might as well just do it outright and save a lot of trouble trying to hide it. Haven't we all learned the lesson that it's not the crime that gets you in the big trouble, it's the cover-up?

 

[HopHeadGrady]

Yer' gonna do 10 years in the hole for this!

Its important to understand the liquor laws of your area. Up here this would be ok as long at the bottles weren't being served at the event as that would violate the liquor permit. If sealed bottles are given away and not consumed at the event, then that is fine. That being said its quite common here at weddings, stags and smaller events etc to give away home brewed wine, serve home brew beer etc too. No one enforces that here.

We enforce the drunks on the road, and tax the bejesus out of beer etc. A lot of people up here brew for the cost saving. You certainly save money homebrewing here.
A case of 12 heineken is 25$ now. But quebec is just 20 min away and they have a Beer King over the bridge that has good deals.

 

[TTB-J]

TTB... do you work there? or is that just a coincidence? either way +1

Nothing is mere coincedence. MUWHAHAHAHAHA

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

As usual in these threads, lots of inaccurate information and inaccurate inferences.

 

[Phunhog]

I think bottom line is that the laws regarding homebrewing were written so that someone can not legally sell their beer to a bar, restaurant, store, etc.... essentially be an unlicensed brewery. It seems that is the interpretation of TTB, ABC, and local law enforcement as I still can't find any record of a homebrewer getting in trouble for doing something like the OP wants to do.
As a sidenote it got me thinking about something....it seems that any mention of the exchange of money and homebrew is taboo. Why is it ok for a competition to charge money to enter, not mention providing homebrew? I realize the law allows competitions but where does it say that it is okay to collect money? Wouldn't that be an exchange of money and thus be illegal? Just wondering......

 

[BrewKnurd]

Wouldn't that be an exchange of money and thus be illegal? Just wondering......

but the entrant provides both the beer and the money, so where's the exchange?

 

[Phunhog]

but the entrant provides both the beer and the money, so where's the exchange?

true.....I guess there really isn't an exchange.
Ok so here is what you do....hold a contest where homebrewers bring beer to be judged. People pay to have the right to be "judges". Cash prizes are given away to the "winners". I don't think it is illegal to award cash prizes in a competition.
Just kidding................well maybe

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Step one if you are worried about getting in trouble; do not post on a public forum.

That said, who is going to track you down and care? Just brew the beer, give it away, and if the hosts want to give you some gifts in a few weeks don't go bragging about it to the world and your local IRS agent.

Personally, I do not worry about this kind of thing. The likelihood of getting in trouble for a once off event are tiny and not a big deal IMO.

 

[griffonage]

**Please read**

What so many ppl fail to mention when talking about these laws is the "perspective" of the government.

The reason there are NO loopholes is because the government wants its tax money. Period.

The reason there will never be an exception is due to Alcohol taxes.

Is you pay your license fees and become a Microbrewery you get the privilege of having your brews subject to tax, and that is what the government is satisfied with. Anything less is an evasion of taxes....from the governments perspective.

 

[dedndcrusr]

...ask for an interpretation from your local alcoholic beverage regulatory agency.

This.

One of the local homebrew shops was organizing a small craft-beer festival and invited homebrewers to bring and share their beer as well. Several months before the event the organizers contacted the state alcoholic beverages agency to enquire about any legal issues. They were given the okay, but then a few days before the event, they were contacted an informed that since there was a small admission fee, the homebrewers would not be allowed to bring beer. The state felt like it would be considered payment in exchange for their homebrew even though the homebrewers would not have received any of the money.

So even though it may suck, my advice would be to contact your state agency and ask them. Whatever they say is what I would do. You don’t want to screw up any future plans to open a brewery.