Lambic Krieks

[noobrich]

I completed my first all grain lambic kriek.

I completed a double batch & divided in two.

On my secondary ferment I pitched half my lambic bruxellus into the beer with cherries just added. Waited seven weeks & bottled. This resulted in a midly sour cherry lambic

The other half I pitched half my lambic bruxellus starter into the fermented beer. Waited 7 weeks & bottled. The sour flavour is unnoticeable.

What do you guys do make the nice sour flavour? Do you have any suggestion or comments??

Thanks in advance Richard

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

I've never done a lambic, so I'm just spouting at the keyboard, but isn't Lactobacillus (and possibly Pediococcus) what makes the souring? I've looked at making other soured beers and most recipes seemed to specify an innoculation of Lactobacillus.

 

[casebrew]

The sour is caused by the output of 'germs' that eat carbs. No fermentables, no sour. So, the bruxcellis fed on the sugars from the cherries, making sour beer. No sugars in femented beer, no sour.

Except Acetobacter, it makes vinegar from the alcohol, so it can wreck beer and wine. But it needs oxygen, so most bottled stuff is safe.

 

[Janx]

It's Pediococcus, not Lactobacillus in lambics. So, you probably needed some more cultures to approximate the real flavor.

But your BIG problem is that you didn't allow NEARLY enough time. Brett yeast strains take a loooooong time. They'll keep fermenting in the bottle for a long time to come. They ferment all kinds of sugars that Sacc yeasts do not. Lambics generally have ~100% attenuation.

Did you use unmalted wheat? The starches from the turbid mash (pretty complicated) are integral to the long life of Brett yeasts and to the character of Lambic. A typical lambic mash has at least 40% unmalted wheat and uses a turbid mash schedule, which is definitely non-trivial.

Then ferment with ale yeast for a week. Do not rack. The autolysed yeast cells are very important to the Brett yeast later on. After a week, you can pitch something like Wyeast Lambic blend, which has the Brett strains and the Pediococcus.

Then wait a year. No kidding. At least a year. A pellicle will form that you do not want to disrupt at all. It guards the beer against oxygen.

THEN you add your cherries and wait at least several months.

So, why doesn't your beer taste like a Lambic? Because you didn't make it like a lambic. At the very least you tried to make it quickly, and you simply cannot rush Lambic. Time and patience are required, so if you don't have those, another style is a good idea.

What did your recipe look like? How about the mash schedule?

Your beer may continue to acquire Brett flavors (horse blankety etc), but probably won't sour much because it doesn't have the appropriate cultures in it.

I recommend reading "Wild Brews" if you are serious in this goal, but it's never going to be the kind of thing you can make in 7 weeks. Heck, most of my standard brews sit in secondary at least that long.

Good luck!

 

[Janx]

The sour is caused by the output of 'germs' that eat carbs. No fermentables, no sour. So, the bruxcellis fed on the sugars from the cherries, making sour beer. No sugars in femented beer, no sour.

This is not true. Brett yeast can ferment a wide variety of sugars not fermentable by Sacc yeasts. It is definitely not "germs" that make a characteristic lambic flavor. It's a very complex blend of yeast and bacteria, many of which operate only at certain pH and take a VERY long time.

There are PLENTY of sugars in fermented beer for Brett yeast and Pediococcus to consume.

 

[noobrich]

Hey thanks for the feedback.

Here is some back ground. I made a double batch & split it. Half was intended to be a Cherry Kriek & the other half was to be a Gueuze.

Here are the good things I did that you mentioned in your response (Janx).

I did use unmalted wheat.
I used a White lab Brettanomyces with a starter.


Here are the bad things I did which you mentioned
I did rack.
I bottled after 7 weeks. By the way I had the nice pellicle like you mentioned. I broke it like it was a bad zit. Dohhh
I added the cherries & the brett starter after the first ale ferment(Knottingams yeast)

Here are some questions I have in regards to your response.
What is a turbid mash schedule?
What do you mean I need more cultures to approximate the flavour?
I was thinking that my cherry lambic is more sour because it had fresh nutrient added ie. the cherries & the sugar. FYI it had a nice steady secondary ferment. What is your opinion of this?


Here is my grain bill 22lb pilsener malt,12lb raw soft wheat, White Labs brettanomyces bruxellensis, 2 ounces of Northern brewers exposed to air for a couple days then baked for a couple hours as low as my oven could do it. 8-19 fluid ounce jars of sour cherries with some sugar in the syrup. I mashed at 150F for probably 45min. & sparged out with 165F water untill my pot + two other small pots are full & boiled for 90 mins. The source for my recipe was Stephen Snyder page 239. This guy adds the fruit & the Brett starter at the same time.


For your information the Cherry Kriek has a sour flavour not to strong but is definitely there. It is a very good tasting beer.

My Gueuze attempt has a very weak sour flavour it is clean with no off flavours. I hope it improves in the bottle.

 

[cowain]

I also have not done a lambic, but I've got a little input to give. I think the sour flavor is quite dependent upon the yeast or bacteria that ferments the wort.

I made a Strong Belgian a week ago and while collecting second runnings for a second batch the ball valve on my mash tun blew off. After draining the rest of the wort for that batch I had no way to stop the dripping of the mash tun so I turned the tun towards the sink to let it drip into the sink. Being a bachelor and living with other slobby guys, we always have glasses in the sink. In this case, my big glass Goblet was in the sink and it filled with the wort that was dripping. Being a bunch of slobs, we didn't do dishes for about 5 days and guess what happened to the goblet full of wort. That's right - fermentation. When I looked at it after several days it had about a quarter inch of krausen caused by whatever bacteria fell into it. I couldn't help myself so I had to sniff it. It didn't reek or smell terrible - it smelled sour - very similar to the New Beligium La Folie I had consumed a month or so prior.

This leads me to believe the sour is cause by the bacteria. Sorry for the epic post.

 

[Lou]

When I looked at it after several days it had about a quarter inch of krausen caused by whatever bacteria fell into it. I couldn't help myself so I had to sniff it. It didn't reek or smell terrible - it smelled sour - very similar to the New Beligium La Folie I had consumed a month or so prior.

you didn't taste it? weak...

 

[casebrew]

This is not true. Brett yeast can ferment a wide variety of sugars not fermentable by Sacc yeasts. It is definitely not "germs" that make a characteristic lambic flavor. It's a very complex blend of yeast and bacteria, many of which operate only at certain pH and take a VERY long time.

There are PLENTY of sugars in fermented beer for Brett yeast and Pediococcus to consume.

No doubt that true lambics ferment differently than noobrich's brew, but n this case we have to troubleshoot what noobrich has, not a two years-in-the-making Lambic.

Well, the only difference between his two batchs were that the one that soured in a few weeks, had fermentables added with his "germs". (I use the term "germs" to mean yeasts, lacto's, bruxo's etc, whatever he added) The batch with no added fermentables did NOT get sour in a few weeks....

So maybe in a couple years, his non-cherie batch will get sour?

 

[cowain]

you didn't taste it? weak...

Yea, I pussed out and got scared. Tough decision, but I finally forced myself to pour it out. Now I wish I had tasted it. Hell, if it was good, I suppose I could have cultured the bacteria.

 

[Lou]

Yea, I pussed out and got scared. Tough decision, but I finally forced myself to pour it out. Now I wish I had tasted it. Hell, if it was good, I suppose I could have cultured the bacteria.

i'm not sure i would've tasted it either...
then again, i wouldn't have even had the opportunity because there's no way i could've dealt with 5 days of SWMBO bitching about the crap fermenting in the kitchen sink...