Kettle has CHARGE!! Help!

[CannibalAJ]

Howdy, I've been working on compiling a Countertop Brutus for a while now and finally got all the parts assembled. I fired it up last night and everything was going great till it hit about 120 F and it tripped the breakers.

Things to consider:

• 5500 W - 240V coil
• 30 AMP GFCI Breaker
• using a MyPin PID
• Both Ground and Neutral available

I had the ground wire taped to the boil kettle which seems to have caused the trip after everything got hot. Once I took the ground off, everything worked even up to boil... but I noticed the kettle was charged when I was touching the lid and touched the switch cover for my pump.

So, my question is, should the coil touch the kettle? Seems awfully hard to avoid! Could something be wrong with the coil? Or is my half ass wiring the cause?

 

[cod3ck]

From my experience, the coil doesn't expose the charge, just heat.

Best guess is a loose wire somewhere... Also, 120 F sounds low... I'd be willing to bet something just came loose over time (regardless of the temp)

 

[singybrue]

half ass wiring

 

[podz]

half ass wiring

Half-assed wiring was my guess as well.

 

[BrunDog]

First disconnect the element wiring from the control box. Measure continuity across all three legs. Also measure it to the kettle body. Should be no continuity between ground and either leg or kettle and either leg. Should be continuity between both legs (~15 ohms). Should be continuity between kettle and ground.

 

[Firewalker11]

Howdy, I've been working on compiling a Countertop Brutus for a while now and finally got all the parts assembled. I fired it up last night and everything was going great till it hit about 120 F and it tripped the breakers.

Things to consider:

• 5500 W - 240V coil
• 30 AMP GFCI Breaker
• using a MyPin PID
• Both Ground and Neutral available

I had the ground wire taped to the boil kettle which seems to have caused the trip after everything got hot. Once I took the ground off, everything worked even up to boil... but I noticed the kettle was charged when I was touching the lid and touched the switch cover for my pump.

So, my question is, should the coil touch the kettle? Seems awfully hard to avoid! Could something be wrong with the coil? Or is my half ass wiring the cause?

The hell!?! STOP! You have to figure the tripping circuit first, disconnecting the ground just means that you have removed the only thing that will save your life! It means: WARNING! There is a short, DO NOT PROCEED!

 

[dlaramie08]

Ground it properly before doing anything else. Then double check every connection and wire. Always make sure to finish your project before using it.

 

[CannibalAJ]

Ok. I'll ohm it out tonight when I get a chance. Never thought to ohm everything out because I triple checked my wiring before turning it on.

The funny thing is it ran for 20 minutes or so last night before it threw the breaker... Still no excuse to "bypass the safety" by ignoring the ground.

 

[Firewalker11]

Ok. I'll ohm it out tonight when I get a chance. Never thought to ohm everything out because I triple checked my wiring before turning it on.

The funny thing is it ran for 20 minutes or so last night before it threw the breaker... Still no excuse to "bypass the safety" by ignoring the ground.

We just dont want you dead is all.

 

[CannibalAJ]

We just dont want you dead is all.

I appreciate that!

I ohmed out the plug/kettle. Around 13 Ohms through the coil, which seems about right I guess. No continuity to ground through the coil or the plug! I even checked on the kettle and the plug to be sure!

A real head scratcher... I think heat may be a factor! Can the threading of the coil touch the kettle? I don't see how it would not touch the kettle.

EDIT: The system was capable of much higher than 120 F. That was just the temp that the problems surfaced.

 

[BrunDog]

Put hot water in it and test it again something is funky.

 

[cod3ck]

Put hot water in it and test it again something is funky.

+1 -- make sure the ground is connected

If possible, I'd find a way to screw the ground connection on so you're not relying on adhesive tape.

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

I appreciate that!

I ohmed out the plug/kettle. Around 13 Ohms through the coil, which seems about right I guess. No continuity to ground through the coil or the plug! I even checked on the kettle and the plug to be sure!

A real head scratcher... I think heat may be a factor! Can the threading of the coil touch the kettle? I don't see how it would not touch the kettle.

EDIT: The system was capable of much higher than 120 F. That was just the temp that the problems surfaced.

The element can touch your pot, thats not your problem. The elements act basically like a giant resistor that turn energy into heat.

 

[schematix]

-

 

[wzd]

Well, the wiring is pretty simple - all that touches the kettle is the element and a temperature probe, right? The probe is not likely to be the issue, especially if it was giving reasonable readings. But I would power it up with a batch of water and wait for it to trip. When it does, remove the probe. reset the power and start it up again. If it trips, I would suspect the heating element. Not much else it could be unless I'm thinking of the wrong system - and given that the kettle ground is essential for it tripping.

Oh, and as long as you are careful and aware (and sober), pulling the kettle ground is reasonable as a debugging measure, but touching the kettle is bad! Putting a voltmeter between the ground and kettle and not touching the kettle would be ok.

 

[CannibalAJ]

I will try the hot water test... but I think I figured out my issue.

When I designed my system, I used a 120V system as the template. I only have 1-each 40A SSR on 1 leg of the 240V. When the system reaches a set point and the SSR ramps down, the system trips! So the SSR ramps down and the 1 leg not going through the SSR dumps 120V to ground? Seems likely to me.

So I have another SSR on order from Amazon Prime (Merry Xmas to me!)

 

[jeffmeh]

I will try the hot water test... but I think I figured out my issue.

When I designed my system, I used a 120V system as the template. I only have 1-each 40A SSR on 1 leg of the 240V. When the system reaches a set point and the SSR ramps down, the system trips! So the SSR ramps down and the 1 leg not going through the SSR dumps 120V to ground? Seems likely to me.

So I have another SSR on order from Amazon Prime (Merry Xmas to me!)

I don't follow. Whether your SSR on one hot leg is open or closed, your kettle should not be part of the circuit, nor should your ground. Something is wired improperly.

 

[cilestiok]

I will try the hot water test... but I think I figured out my issue.

When I designed my system, I used a 120V system as the template. I only have 1-each 40A SSR on 1 leg of the 240V. When the system reaches a set point and the SSR ramps down, the system trips! So the SSR ramps down and the 1 leg not going through the SSR dumps 120V to ground? Seems likely to me.

So I have another SSR on order from Amazon Prime (Merry Xmas to me!)

Are you saying that one leg is on an SSR and the other leg is wired directly to the element?

 

[crane]

I had the ground wire taped to the boil kettle which seems to have caused the trip after everything got hot. Once I took the ground off, everything worked even up to boil... but I noticed the kettle was charged when I was touching the lid and touched the switch cover for my pump.

Holly crap. This is the dumbest thing I've read in a long time. You are lucky you are alive right now. Really lucky.

This is why people should not jump into electric brewing if they are unwilling to learn how electricity works first. Ignorance is not bliss.

When you touched it while it was hot did it not trip the GFCI, or do you even have a GFCI? Even with the ground removed from the kettle, the GFCI should have tripped when you touched the kettle.

What are you using for an element cover to protect the wiring. My guess is that one of the connections to the element also started to make contact with the covering after it heated up and that is how the kettle became charged.

If wired correctly the SSR should not be capable of dumping any electricity to ground. Sounds like you might not have that wired correctly or you don't understand how an SSR works.

 

[crane]

Never thought to ohm everything out because I triple checked my wiring before turning it on.

The only real way to check your wiring is to Ohm it out. Looking at it doesn't tell you a thing about what paths the electrons can and will take.

Also never use tape for an electrical connection. It will not hold up to time.

 

[CannibalAJ]

Holly crap. This is the dumbest thing I've read in a long time. You are lucky you are alive right now. Really lucky.

This is why people should not jump into electric brewing if they are unwilling to learn how electricity works first. Ignorance is not bliss.

Awfully presumptuous of you... but my actions do speak louder than words... I should have ohmed out the system, but was very excited to push forward. My excitement and anticipation overruled my common sense. Not trying to start a flame war, but lets take step back here and stick to positive reinforcement.

When you touched it while it was hot did it not trip the GFCI, or do you even have a GFCI? Even with the ground removed from the kettle, the GFCI should have tripped when you touched the kettle.

What are you using for an element cover to protect the wiring. My guess is that one of the connections to the element also started to make contact with the covering after it heated up and that is how the kettle became charged.

If wired correctly the SSR should not be capable of dumping any electricity to ground. Sounds like you might not have that wired correctly or you don't understand how an SSR works.

The SSR is only on one hot leg. I figure that I should definitely have it on both legs. As for how an SSR works... I know that the low voltage output from the PID turns on the high voltage "switch".

The 30 AMP circuit breaker in my panel is GFCI. My understanding is that a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter monitors the ground leg and drops out the voltage when it sees a short.

The breaker popped when the PID started ramping down below 100% when approaching the 120 degrees set point I had.

The element cover is a PVC Coupling. The electrical connections were made to the element, then the element was JB welded into the Coupling. The ground wire was pulled out of the coupling so it could be attached to the Kettle. The Coupling was then filled with latex caulking. Getting into the back end of the element will be tough, but can be managed if need be. Hindsight being 20/20 I would have opted for using a electrical box so I could trouble shoot the connections.

Obviously this is a big learning curve, and obviously I only know enough about electricity to be dangerous. My intent was never to be fast and loose with safety protocols. I've been accumulating parts over the last 2 years or so and finally saw a light at the end of the tunnel. Probably pushed a little to hard to finish this quickly.

I appreciate the input and assistance. I will be waiting for the SSR for the other leg to come in so I can be sure that the system is working in concert for both hot legs before I fire anything up and do any more testing. I'll try to update more in the near future.

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

Awfully presumptuous of you... but my actions do speak louder than words... I should have ohmed out the system, but was very excited to push forward. My excitement and anticipation overruled my common sense. Not trying to start a flame war, but lets take step back here and stick to positive reinforcement.



The SSR is only on one hot leg. I figure that I should definitely have it on both legs. As for how an SSR works... I know that the low voltage output from the PID turns on the high voltage "switch".

The 30 AMP circuit breaker in my panel is GFCI. My understanding is that a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter monitors the ground leg and drops out the voltage when it sees a short.

The breaker popped when the PID started ramping down below 100% when approaching the 120 degrees set point I had.

The element cover is a PVC Coupling. The electrical connections were made to the element, then the element was JB welded into the Coupling. The ground wire was pulled out of the coupling so it could be attached to the Kettle. The Coupling was then filled with latex caulking. Getting into the back end of the element will be tough, but can be managed if need be. Hindsight being 20/20 I would have opted for using a electrical box so I could trouble shoot the connections.

Obviously this is a big learning curve, and obviously I only know enough about electricity to be dangerous. My intent was never to be fast and loose with safety protocols. I've been accumulating parts over the last 2 years or so and finally saw a light at the end of the tunnel. Probably pushed a little to hard to finish this quickly.

I appreciate the input and assistance. I will be waiting for the SSR for the other leg to come in so I can be sure that the system is working in concert for both hot legs before I fire anything up and do any more testing. I'll try to update more in the near future.

You dont need both legs going to your element to be controlled by SSR's, your element wont fire if only 1 leg is charged. We need to see the circuit somehow to give any more advice.

 

[Herb3]

The way I have seen these set-ups wired from the different drawings here is that both "Hot Legs" go to a contactor first. Then one Hot goes to the element. The other Hot goes to the SSR then to the other side of the element.

I just finished punching all the holes in my control panel this afternoon and hope to have the last of my parts here later this week to start wiring it up. I plan to wire my panel as above.

 

[jeffmeh]

The way I have seen these set-ups wired from the different drawings here is that both "Hot Legs" go to a contactor first. Then one Hot goes to the element. The other Hot goes to the SSR then to the other side of the element.

I just finished punching all the holes in my control panel this afternoon and hope to have the last of my parts here later this week to start wiring it up. I plan to wire my panel as above.

Yes. Only one hot leg needs to go through an SSR, as the element will need both hot legs live to produce heat. The normally open mechanical contactor controls both legs, and allows you to turn the element off and know that it is off. SSRs leak current and can fail closed (on).

 

[jeffmeh]

Awfully presumptuous of you... but my actions do speak louder than words... I should have ohmed out the system, but was very excited to push forward. My excitement and anticipation overruled my common sense. Not trying to start a flame war, but lets take step back here and stick to positive reinforcement.



The SSR is only on one hot leg. I figure that I should definitely have it on both legs. As for how an SSR works... I know that the low voltage output from the PID turns on the high voltage "switch".

The 30 AMP circuit breaker in my panel is GFCI. My understanding is that a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter monitors the ground leg and drops out the voltage when it sees a short.

The breaker popped when the PID started ramping down below 100% when approaching the 120 degrees set point I had.

The element cover is a PVC Coupling. The electrical connections were made to the element, then the element was JB welded into the Coupling. The ground wire was pulled out of the coupling so it could be attached to the Kettle. The Coupling was then filled with latex caulking. Getting into the back end of the element will be tough, but can be managed if need be. Hindsight being 20/20 I would have opted for using a electrical box so I could trouble shoot the connections.

Obviously this is a big learning curve, and obviously I only know enough about electricity to be dangerous. My intent was never to be fast and loose with safety protocols. I've been accumulating parts over the last 2 years or so and finally saw a light at the end of the tunnel. Probably pushed a little to hard to finish this quickly.

I appreciate the input and assistance. I will be waiting for the SSR for the other leg to come in so I can be sure that the system is working in concert for both hot legs before I fire anything up and do any more testing. I'll try to update more in the near future.

I would throw away the JB Welded coupling and try again with an electrical box Kal style, or a kit like this one. http://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/hotpod-ewl3.htm

 

[processhead]

It is not impossible that your element has shorted internally. This would give you the symptoms you describe.

If you can't find a problem with your wiring, disconnect your wiring at the element and measure the resistance between both of the element terminals and to the kettle. Should measure infinite or meg-ohms at a minimum.
As the others said, don't operate ungrounded equipment.

 

[Greatbreweh]

half ass wiring

could be full ass wiring

 

[kal]

Also never use tape for an electrical connection. It will not hold up to time.

+1. It should be bolted.

Kal