Keggle Ethics - A slightly different angle?

[kpr121]

Okay so I suspect this thread will end up going down the same path every Keggle Ethics thread goes, but I have a specific question that comes from a little bit of a different angle:

If I were to offer the services of creating a keggle (ball valve, thermometers, sight glasses, etc) for anyone who brought me an empty (or full!) keg, would I be responsible for the legal action that could come down as a result of ‘stealing’ the keg from the distributor/brewery, if upon further investigation it was found that the keg was acquired illegally?

I would basically be modifying a keg that I assume my customer owns. No questions need to be asked by myself where this keg came from, correct? Or am I in the wrong since I would be the one physically drilling the holes?

Thanks for any responses, and sorry if this is going to stir the pot (or shake the keg!). This isn’t something I would want to turn into a full blown business, but I do have some friends that would like to get into homebrewing, and I can see being able to make a couple bucks off of this.

 

[MyNameIsPaul]

It's sorta like selling a bong at a head shop. You KNOW what it'll be used for, but you're not responsible for it's use, you're just selling it.

Maybe nothing like that at all. I'm still on my first cup of coffee. I think it'd be fine because you aren't acquiring the kegs. You're providing a service, not the keg itself.

 

[JetSmooth]

So, you'd be operating a keg "chop shop"?

 

[IrregularPulse]

You're making a few kegs for friends. The question comes down to, do you really think anything is going to happen? Have you ever heard of anyone getting into legal troubles for having kegs?
If you're worried, take payment in cash, and make sure they know they won't get a receipt and that you never did the work. But honestly, I'd drill the holes, take cash from friends and carry on.

 

[MyNameIsPaul]

You're making a few kegs for friends. The question comes down to, do you really think anything is going to happen? Have you ever heard of anyone getting into legal troubles for having kegs?
If you're worried, take payment in cash, and make sure they know they won't get a receipt and that you never did the work. But honestly, I'd drill the holes, take cash from friends and carry on.

Hey IP, I need some keggles made, hook me up!

 

[IrregularPulse]

Hey IP, I need some keggles made, hook me up!

Mail me your kegs, along with a return shipping container and slip, and identify what holes you want where and I'll gladly do it for you. We can work out a price based on what you want done.

*if you're serious*

 

[MyNameIsPaul]

Mail me your kegs, along with a return shipping container and slip, and identify what holes you want where and I'll gladly do it for you. We can work out a price based on what you want done.

*if you're serious*

Sounds good. I'll be sure to fill them up before shipping so you'll have something to drink while working on them!

 

[Homercidal]

I don't see a problem here. If you are simply modifying someone else's property, it's not up to you to verify that they obtained said property legally. You are not taking ownership of it.

 

[lextasy23]

Explain to me the legalities here... Why you don't own it after paying the deposit?

I delabel bottles all the time... How is it any less illegal?

Noob question, I know. I'm not arguing, just uneducated and would like to be better informed.

 

[broadbill]

But honestly, I'd drill the holes, take cash from friends and carry on.

Personally, I'd skip this part. It is such a no-brainer job I couldn't justify soaking anyone for cash to do it, especially my friends. At the very least I'd loan my step-drill bit and drill and let them drill their own kegs.

How much can you really charge for this service? Anything more than $10 and its more cost-effective to by the step-bits (Harbor Freight/eBay) and drill it yourself (assuming you have a drill). Then you at least have a set of step-bits after you are done!

 

[kpr121]

Explain to me the legalities here... Why you don't own it after paying the deposit?

I delabel bottles all the time... How is it any less illegal?

Noob question, I know. I'm not arguing, just uneducated and would like to be better informed.

Alotta debating goes on over this issue. Basically, a keg costs a lot more than $40 or whatever the distributor charges you for a deposit. Some people feel like just because you pay a deposit, does not mean you own the keg. I tend to be on the other side, that if they cared about people keeping kegs, they would charge a higher deposit. But that is besides the point.


With respects to staying on topic with the original questions, I would like to continue this thread under the assumption that it is ILLEGAL to keep a keg for simply the deposit.

There are many other threads on the moralities of keg deposits, one example: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/ethics-sanke-kegs-wtf-do-i-do-old-keg-114698/

 

[kpr121]

Personally, I'd skip this part. It is such a no-brainer job I couldn't justify soaking anyone for cash to do it, especially my friends. At the very least I'd loan my step-drill bit and drill and let them drill their own kegs.

How much can you really charge for this service? Anything more than $10 and its more cost-effective to by the step-bits (Harbor Freight/eBay) and drill it yourself (assuming you have a drill). Then you at least have a set of step-bits after you are done!

Considering that keggles can be bought online for upwards of $150+, I think I could easily charge someone 50 bucks for a weldless ball valve setup, profiting $20-30 depending on what materials and types they would want.

Of course close friends I wouldnt charge much if at all, but if a friend's friend comes to me, I don't want to do this for free.

 

[broadbill]

Considering that keggles can be bought online for upwards of $150+, I think I could easily charge someone 50 bucks for a weldless ball valve setup, profiting $20-30 depending on what materials and types they would want.

Of course close friends I wouldnt charge much if at all, but if a friend's friend comes to me, I don't want to do this for free.

Yeah; but in that $150 price tag the keg is included. In your setup, you are having your someone bring the keg to you and you are charging them almost 300% markup to drill a hole and screw in a fitting (assuming you go with the Bargain Fittings $17 weldless kit with brass valve and barb fitting). You really expect someone to jump on that deal? For that price they could buy a crappy drill, step-bit, and weldless kit and do it themselves.

That aside, if I were your friend and you told me to cough up some cash (whatever the amount) to drill a hole in my keg , I'd probably tell you to go pound salt. You can't spare 10 minutes to help a buddy out?

 

[JetSmooth]

With respects to staying on topic with the original questions, I would like to continue this thread under the assumption that it is ILLEGAL to keep a keg for simply the deposit.

And the church wanted to continue the conversation under the assumption that the Earth was the center of the universe. They even excommunicated a guy over it. ;P

I keed. I keed!

 

[seabass07]

There's nothing illegal about working on a friend's keg regardless of whether it was stolen or not. If you knew it was stolen, then there is an ethics issue, but not a legal issue with you. Same as if you were a mechanic and a friend asked you to fix their new car. It's not your job to run the vin to make sure it's not stolen.

 

[JuanMoore]

I don't think it's your responsibility to ensure the kegs you're working on were legally obtained, but I'd make sure to avoid a paper trail just in case.

How much can you really charge for this service? Anything more than $10 and its more cost-effective to by the step-bits (Harbor Freight/eBay) and drill it yourself (assuming you have a drill). Then you at least have a set of step-bits after you are done!

What about the cost of the angle grinder to cut the top off? Even if all the necessary tools could be had for $10, there are still plenty of people who don't have the skills or knowledge to safely convert a keg into a functional brewing vessel, and are more than happy to pay someone else to do it. I know people who probably couldn't get the spear out of a keg given an afternoon and access to all the tools in my shop.

 

[kpr121]

I don't think it's your responsibility to ensure the kegs you're working on were legally obtained, but I'd make sure to avoid a paper trail just in case.



What about the cost of the angle grinder to cut the top off? Even if all the necessary tools could be had for $10, there are still plenty of people who don't have the skills or knowledge to safely convert a keg into a functional brewing vessel, and are more than happy to pay someone else to do it. I know people who probably couldn't get the spear out of a keg given an afternoon and access to all the tools in my shop.

Exactly. I'm actually afraid to do this for some of these guys, knowing that they will then be boiling 10 gallons of sugar water on a rinky turkey fryer, talking on their cell phones while wearing sandals and probably about 10 beers deep.

Lend that guy my angle grinder? I think not!

 

[broadbill]

What about the cost of the angle grinder to cut the top off?

OP didn't mention he was going to do that as part of his services; maybe its implied. Either way, marking up 300% seems excessive, even with keg cutting. Maybe it just that you can't turn a profit doing this (cost of parts/labor vs. what people will pay). Who knows maybe people will pay $50 for a drilled hole...

As for an angle grinder, you can cut a hole for a keggle with a dremel cut-off wheel...

Even if all the necessary tools could be had for $10, there are still plenty of people who don't have the skills or knowledge to safely convert a keg into a functional brewing vessel, and are more than happy to pay someone else to do it. I know people who probably couldn't get the spear out of a keg given an afternoon and access to all the tools in my shop.

mmmm...perhaps. However, the person who goes through the trouble to brew your own beer, when you could just run down to the store to buy it, can probably bumble their way through this operation if they wanted to.

I'm just saying if it were me, I'd be a bit more generous with my friends. Heck, if the OP"s friends want a keggle drilled and cut, they can come to my place and I'll do it for them for free!

I guess the major issue I have here is the OP is soaking his friends for cash for a relatively easy and straight-forward project.

 

[kpr121]

Maybe I overused the term 'friends', these would be more like acquaintances.

And Im not talking about 300% markup.

I would be happy to leave with +20 bucks for cutting the top, making sure there are no burrs or sharp edges, drilling the holes, installing ballvalves, diptubes, sight glasses, etc. (ensuring no leaks). This is probably a couple hours of work when it is all said and done (need to clean the oil and steel shards also).

I understand that the nature of homebrewers is to DIY, but there are also alot of people who arent as DIY savvy that would like to start getting into the hobby, and a keggle is one of the greatest pieces of equipment you will use for brewing.

Of course I am not going to charge my brother or best friend for this. After all, I enjoy doing this kind of stuff (I am a homebrewer after all!)

 

[IrregularPulse]

Personally, I'd skip this part. It is such a no-brainer job I couldn't justify soaking anyone for cash to do it, especially my friends. At the very least I'd loan my step-drill bit and drill and let them drill their own kegs.

How much can you really charge for this service? Anything more than $10 and its more cost-effective to by the step-bits (Harbor Freight/eBay) and drill it yourself (assuming you have a drill). Then you at least have a set of step-bits after you are done!

Yes, assuming someone has a drill and knows how to make a hole and wants to mess with it. There's plenty of "men" out there that don't own and can't operate a drill.

Considering that keggles can be bought online for upwards of $150+, I think I could easily charge someone 50 bucks for a weldless ball valve setup, profiting $20-30 depending on what materials and types they would want.

Of course close friends I wouldnt charge much if at all, but if a friend's friend comes to me, I don't want to do this for free.

This.

 

[Slurm]

Considering that keggles can be bought online for upwards of $150+, I think I could easily charge someone 50 bucks for a weldless ball valve setup, profiting $20-30 depending on what materials and types they would want.

Of course close friends I wouldnt charge much if at all, but if a friend's friend comes to me, I don't want to do this for free.

I do IT work, and before that I was a mechanic... I help friends and family for free, but friends of family, family of friends, friends of friends all have to pay for my services. I'd say charging is the right thing to do.

As for offering this service, you are in a grey area both ethically and legally. If you honestly believe they own the equipment they are asking you to modify, you are simply acting in good faith. If you do not, then you are not. Either way I think your likelihood of getting into trouble is very low.

 

[whatsleftofyou]

I'd imagine that it's just like anything else where a modification or other service is done to someone else's property. If I bring something to a shop to get it engraved, I don't have to provide my receipt to prove that I purchased it. If I bring my car in to get it detailed or repaired, I don't need to show them my title or registration (unless it's warranty work, then maybe...).

(Note: I'm not advocating anyone doing anything illegal such as 'stealing' kegs, mainly just saying that if there was burden of proof, it shouldn't be on you.)

 

[ChandlerBang]

There's nothing illegal about working on a friend's keg

thehehehe, but its gross.



And I say charge what you can get. If the price is too high let 'em haggle.

 

[Wakadaka]

I see no problem with it. And clearly if you are somewhat concerned about them getting in trouble and it coming back to you, than they aren't the type of friends that are going to get a few hours of your time just as a favor.

I have seen a guy selling keggles on craig's list, so I assume its relatively legal. Charge them what you can get. Maybe try getting them to buy you ingredients or gift card to a homebrew shop. People are more willing to spend more money on a purchase rather than just handing over cash

 

[shelly_belly]

If I had a friend to cut the top off of a keg and drill a couple of holes for me, I would gladly give him/her $20 or a half sack of grain or something. And a couple of homebrews too.

 

[JetSmooth]

I have seen a guy selling keggles on craig's list, so I assume its relatively legal.

I've seen "massage therapists" promise happy endings on Craigslist. So I assume that's relatively legal as well.