Keg fermenting

[BongoYodeler]

I think we ought to pause and see if hops will drop into the slightly smaller than 1.5" tubing going into the lid. I know that as long as the hops drop through a 2" butterfly, they have no problem reducing down to 1.5" through the concentric.

Yeah, that was my concern too. Is this something you'd be willing or able to test? If not, or if it doesn't work then I would probably just go 1.5" all the way. Thanks.

 

[Deadalus]

Yeah, that was my concern too. Is this something you'd be willing or able to test? If not, or if it doesn't work then I would probably just go 1.5" all the way. Thanks.

I have the 1.5" hop bong. I found it didn't work well at all with a ball valve below it and switched to a butterfly valve (1.5"). With the ball valve they got really stuck and I had to take off the hop bong to unclog and get them in. With the butterfly valve, they still can hang up but the disk in the valve helps to "scoop" the hops and I am pretty sure the opening is bigger anyway. I just gently chop (2-3x) the valve with my hand to shake them loose. I think the 2" would be better however keep in mind to do that with a reducer, the butterfly valve will need to be above the reducer. So you would be stuck with both the keg lid TC tube and the reducer above the keg and before the valve. Could be a bit tall if you use a ferm chamber. You'd need to fit lid +reducer+valve height. You will fit more with the 2" version, I had to do two drops on a recent NEIPA. It's minor as far as time. Good to know that the hops will slide down the reducer though. It's a pretty steep angle.

Another option is to pulverize your pellet hops into a powder. @day_trippr does this, not sure if it is with a hop bong (he uses carboys) but I think his reasoning is they don't sink as fast/better utilization. I think I will try it next time myself but I have three IPA's on tap at the moment so it won't be anytime soon!

 

[Bobby_M]

I know for sure that hops do not consistently drop through a 1.5" butterfly valve. I tested it thoroughly when I first got the hop bongs in. The ID of the tubing that goes into the lid has an ID of 1-1/8" which is a 1/4" smaller in diameter than a 1.5" TC. You can see the 1/8" ledge in the picture below.. which incidentally has no effect on the hops dropping. In case it's not clear, that's a 2" x 1.5" concentric reducer.

 

[BongoYodeler]

Could be a bit tall if you use a ferm chamber. You'd need to fit lid +reducer+valve height. You will fit more with the 2" version, I had to do two drops on a recent NEIPA. It's minor as far as time. Good to know that the hops will slide down the reducer though. It's a pretty steep angle.

*above has been edited by me to highlight.

Can't you just close the butterfly valve and remove the hop bong, then secure a cap? That would at least shorten by the height of the hop bong.

My thought is, top to bottom:
2" Hop Bong asmy
2" butterfly valve
2.0 to 1.5 concentric reducer
corny keg lid with tc port
**This assumes the hop pellets pass through smaller diameter corny keg lid, which I *can't* assume they do based on Bobby's post.

*(edited due to typing while not thinking)

 

[Deadalus]

*above has been edited by me to highlight.

Can't you just close the butterfly valve and remove the hop bong, then secure a cap? That would at least shorten by the height of the hop bong.

My thought is, top to bottom:
2" Hop Bong asmy
2" butterfly valve
2.0 to 1.5 concentric reducer
corny keg lid with tc port
**This assumes the hop pellets pass through smaller diameter corny keg lid, which I assume they do based on Bobby's post/pic.

Yes. That's how I was thinking of it. The reducer will add about 3" and that is on top of whatever the extra height is on the lid and probably a little extra from the 2" butterfly valve. Carboys were so tight in my minifridge ferm chambers that I couldn't get an airlock on well enough and instead used a metal blowoff tube. A ball lock keg is about 2" taller than a 6.5 gal carboy. I fermented a few times in kegs but I saved two pin locks for doing it. They are about the same height as a carboy. Depends on your temperature control conditions though and the styles you are using it for.

 

[Broken Crow]

*above has been edited by me to highlight.

Can't you just close the butterfly valve and remove the hop bong, then secure a cap? That would at least shorten by the height of the hop bong.

My thought is, top to bottom:
2" Hop Bong asmy
2" butterfly valve
2.0 to 1.5 concentric reducer
corny keg lid with tc port
**This assumes the hop pellets pass through smaller diameter corny keg lid, which I *can't* assume they do based on Bobby's post.

*(edited due to typing while not thinking)

Just a thought: if height is gonna be an issue but you're determined to have a dry hopper, as long as you don't need to spund but only need the FV to hold enough pressure to transfer through a floating diptube, you could always use a 5G milk can (a-la Bracconiere). The lid has plenty of room for a 2" TC bulkhead + Gas and liquid posts and it'll hold about 5 psi....Plus they have really nice handles for easy moving. Lower than a corny, narrower than a carboy.

 

[BongoYodeler]

Just a thought: if height is gonna be an issue but you're determined to have a dry hopper, as long as you don't need to spund but only need the FV to hold enough pressure to transfer through a floating diptube, you could always use a 5G milk can (a-la Bracconiere). The lid has plenty of room for a 2" TC bulkhead + Gas and liquid posts and it'll hold about 5 psi....Plus they have really nice handles for easy moving. Lower than a corny, narrower than a carboy.

Thanks. Yeah, I do remember Brac's milk can. But I'm looking for a more ready-made solution. Height may not be an issue as I'm also considering buying a used, or possibly new, mid size upright freezer to use as a fermentation chamber.

 

[Broken Crow]

Thanks. Yeah, I do remember Brac's milk can. But I'm looking for a more ready-made solution. Height may not be an issue as I'm also considering buying a used, or possibly new, mid size upright freezer to use as a fermentation chamber.

Well.. If you reconsider:
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/tc2wlf.htm
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/npt12tokegpostgas.htm
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/bulkheadblg.htm
https://www.kegconnection.com/flotit-2-0-stainless-steel-floating-dip-tube-no-beer-left-behind/
... I didn't look up the hole-punches, but that part is dead-simple.
JIC

 

[BongoYodeler]

*above has been edited by me to highlight.

Can't you just close the butterfly valve and remove the hop bong, then secure a cap? That would at least shorten by the height of the hop bong.

My thought is, top to bottom:
2" Hop Bong asmy
2" butterfly valve
2.0 to 1.5 concentric reducer
corny keg lid with tc port
**This assumes the hop pellets pass through smaller diameter corny keg lid, which I *can't* assume they do based on Bobby's post.

*(edited due to typing while not thinking)

*above has been edited by me to highlight.

Can't you just close the butterfly valve and remove the hop bong, then secure a cap? That would at least shorten by the height of the hop bong.

My thought is, top to bottom:
2" Hop Bong asmy
2" butterfly valve
2.0 to 1.5 concentric reducer
corny keg lid with tc port
**This assumes the hop pellets pass through smaller diameter corny keg lid, which I *can't* assume they do based on Bobby's post.

*(edited due to typing while not thinking)

Having thought about this for a couple weeks I decided to take the plunge and order the parts from @Bobby_M at BrewHardware to see if I can make this work. Worst case, if the hops get stuck and don't drop successfully I can try first grinding them with my old coffee grinder, as suggested by somebody(?).

So the package from Brew Hardware arrived earlier today, and in anticipation I had a cleaned and dried 5 gallon corny keg ready and waiting. I sacrificed some old hops I had in the back of my garage freezer, like really old - 6 or 7 years old!! I kept thinking I was saving them for an eventual brew day, but that someday never came. But now they have a new purpose - testing this new dry hopping process.

I assembled it this evening and opened an unused 4oz bag of Cluster hop pellets that were several years old. These are very small sized pellets for some reason, about half the size I'm used to seeing. I dumped about an ounce into the hop bong as a first test, opened the butterfly valve, and down they went, quickly and without even slowing down. I then added the other three ounces to the hop bong and...success. But will it work as well with "normal" size hop pellets? I had a freezer bag, hand-written with a Sharpie - 5.7oz of El Dorado hops and a date of 2017, perfect for this experiment. I dumped in an ounce, maybe less, and opened the valve....down they went. Well hell, let's just try adding the remaining 4 to 5 ounces all at once, (they all fit in the 2" diameter hop bong). After adding them I released the valve and down they went. Well, all but a few, maybe, (guessing), 1/2 an ounce of pellets. They were stuck below the butterfly valve, probably in the less-than-1.5 inch keg-top port, so "chopping" with the valve as suggested by @Deadalus wasn't going to help in this case. I smacked the side of the keg but that didn't dislodge them either. I finally lifted the keg off the floor about 2 or 3 inches and lightly smacked it back down on the floor. Success, the rest dropped. Not ideal but it worked.

More testing is definitely required, but it seems the experiment was mostly a success, it actually worked better than I thought it would. Maybe a slower, more controlled drop will work better? Maybe just less at a time? Not sure, I'll play around with this some more before I try it for real. But this looks promising.

 

[Deadalus]

I have a 1.5" hop bong with a butterfly valve under it. But the chopping sort of action I mentioned with the valve was more about the hops not dropping from above the valve. That is, open the valve and the hops remain suspended. An easy tap and they may start to fall but get stuck. That's where the valve can sort of scoop/chop some and then the hops may break loose. Don't fully close the valve when chopping, that helps too. I suppose if they got stuck underneath the valve could sweep that area some but not far into where they may get stuck. Beyond that I'm not sure I have any spots they have gotten stuck but sounds like some shaking solves that.

Depending on the packaging the old hops were perhaps dessicated or abraded some having been moved around repeatedly.

 

[BongoYodeler]

I have a 1.5" hop bong with a butterfly valve under it. But the chopping sort of action I mentioned with the valve was more about the hops not dropping from above the valve. That is, open the valve and the hops remain suspended. An easy tap and they may start to fall but get stuck. That's where the valve can sort of scoop/chop some and then the hops may break loose. Don't fully close the valve when chopping, that helps too. I suppose if they got stuck underneath the valve could sweep that area some but not far into where they may get stuck. Beyond that I'm not sure I have any spots they have gotten stuck but sounds like some shaking solves that.

Depending on the packaging the old hops were perhaps dessicated or abraded some having been moved around repeatedly.

Yeah, as I said these hops were stuck well below the 2" butterfly valve, but they broke free rather easily. And that was a nearly 5oz drop all at once. I'm brewing today but I'll make some time, maybe tomorrow, to experiment some more. As far as the physical integrity of the pellets they seemed no different than newer hop pellets. All my open bag hops are quickly vacuum sealed and put in the freezer. I'm sure that helps

 

[Deadalus]

Just some thoughts on fine tuning it I speculate that a quick sweep of the butterfly valve likely contacts the mass of hops above in multiple spots helping to jar them loose if stuck but then keeping the valve somewhat closed would slow down the flow to where it might not get stuck below from having too large a mass hit the lower portion. The disk of the valve makes a shadow of empty space underneath. Fully open that shadow is just a sliver of empty space. I only have a few brews using mine but I have filled containers from bulk items before and going slow helps, like when using a funnel for dry goods.

Now there's probably an optimal angle to pitch the valve disk such that the shadow area accounts for the reduction in cross-sectional area created by the reducer fitting...

 

[Willy]

I have a 1.5" hop bong with a butterfly valve under it. But the chopping sort of action I mentioned with the valve was more about the hops not dropping from above the valve. That is, open the valve and the hops remain suspended. An easy tap and they may start to fall but get stuck. That's where the valve can sort of scoop/chop some and then the hops may break loose. Don't fully close the valve when chopping, that helps too. I suppose if they got stuck underneath the valve could sweep that area some but not far into where they may get stuck. Beyond that I'm not sure I have any spots they have gotten stuck but sounds like some shaking solves that.

Depending on the packaging the old hops were perhaps dessicated or abraded some having been moved around repeatedly.

I use a 1 1/2" triclamp hop bong and I have had no issues. I made a little wand... Attached to a small electric motor, spinning an off center washer assembly (basically ... A vibrator)... And that shakes whatever is stuck and shakes it loose. I know - stupid, but it works.

 

[BongoYodeler]

I did some more testing with the hop bong this evening. Each hop drop resulted in all the hops dropping successfully into the corny keg. Pictured below is the 2 inch diameter hop bong filled with close to 6 ounces of hops. This time rather than opening the butterfly valve completely and letting them all drop at once, I dropped them slower by opening and closing the valve over 6 or 8 seconds and it worked much better as I was able to completely empty the bong into the keg, without jamming, on all three attempts. I'm calling this a success and will try it for real later this month or in early December when I brew an ipa. The only possible issue I see when I do this for real is that it will be much more difficult to verify that all the hops drop into the keg when the top is on the bong. For testing purposes I only assembled the parts needed to drop the hops. I left off the CO2 fitting at the side port, and the top piece of the hop bong. Without the top attached I can look down through the bong all the way to the opening in the keg. Once it's attached it's all but impossible to see down there.

 

[mashdar]

And it looks pretty, too.

 

[day_trippr]

Love that the business end looks every bit like an actual bong

 

[BongoYodeler]

Love that the business end looks every bit like an actual bong

It's actually mine from '78. I was able to make a couple minor tweaks to make it work correctly.

 

[mashdar]

Love that the business end looks every bit like an actual bong

Sir, we call that a tobacco water pipe, or I'm going to have to ask you to leave.

 

[Deadalus]

Love that the business end looks every bit like an actual bong

I sent pics to select friends the first time I used mine.

 

[Broken Crow]

I did some more testing with the hop bong this evening. Each hop drop resulted in all the hops dropping successfully into the corny keg. Pictured below is the 2 inch diameter hop bong filled with close to 6 ounces of hops. This time rather than opening the butterfly valve completely and letting them all drop at once, I dropped them slower by opening and closing the valve over 6 or 8 seconds and it worked much better as I was able to completely empty the bong into the keg, without jamming, on all three attempts. I'm calling this a success and will try it for real later this month or in early December when I brew an ipa. The only possible issue I see when I do this for real is that it will be much more difficult to verify that all the hops drop into the keg when the top is on the bong. For testing purposes I only assembled the parts needed to drop the hops. I left off the CO2 fitting at the side port, and the top piece of the hop bong. Without the top attached I can look down through the bong all the way to the opening in the keg. Once it's attached it's all but impossible to see down there.

View attachment 862511

I Love it! If your looking for suggestions: Buy one more part:

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/tc2hb58.htm
Use it as a blow-off tube for energetic primary to keep the gunk out of your gas post and swap it out for your bong when your ferment settles down.
...Just in case you want to do a batch to yield closer to a full 5G, and if you still have any money left to spend: Get one of the cheap chinese 6.5G 'cornies' to mount it on. Here's a Canadian link to the keg; https://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/ob-keg-6.5gal.html ..prices vary wildly and I don't know of a single cheap US-source, but have seen them on ebay and amazon as well as aliexpress..though: My pendantic take on those kegs: I don't like the small weld-footprint of the handles. It's fine for the smaller 1.6G and 2.6G sizes, but the weight of 5 or 6 G will cause more flexion of the top of the keg than I'm comfortable with, leading to micro-fracturing and the onset of oxidation and possibly eventually even warping the mouth so: Get or build something like a golf-bag dolly to strap it to.
Just my 2-cents.
Looking forward to your posts when you try it out!

 

[BongoYodeler]

I Love it! If your looking for suggestions: Buy one more part:
View attachment 862529
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/tc2hb58.htm
Use it as a blow-off tube for energetic primary to keep the gunk out of your gas post and swap it out for your bong when your ferment settles down.
...Just in case you want to do a batch to yield closer to a full 5G, and if you still have any money left to spend: Get one of the cheap chinese 6.5G 'cornies' to mount it on. Here's a Canadian link to the keg; https://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/ob-keg-6.5gal.html ..prices vary wildly and I don't know of a single cheap US-source, but have seen them on ebay and amazon as well as aliexpress..though: My pendantic take on those kegs: I don't like the small weld-footprint of the handles. It's fine for the smaller 1.6G and 2.6G sizes, but the weight of 5 or 6 G will cause more flexion of the top of the keg than I'm comfortable with, leading to micro-fracturing and the onset of oxidation and possibly eventually even warping the mouth so: Get or build something like a golf-bag dolly to strap it to.
Just my 2-cents.
Looking forward to your posts when you try it out!

Interesting links, thanks. However, I'm not fermenting in my cornies, I use a 30L Speidel fermenter with NorCal's transfer kit. I'm also fine with ending up with a little less than 5 full gallons. My plan is to have the hop bong pre-attached to a corny dry hop keg, which in turn is attached to a serving keg with blowoff going into a jar of Starsan solution. (I do this already, but have been adding the hops to the DH keg prior to fermentation. I just don't like the idea of them sitting in the DH keg for a couple weeks, which is the whole reason I'm opting for the hop bong).
So...fermentation gas clears both cornies. Cold crash. On dry hop day I'll add the hops to the bong then purge the bong, and drop the hops into the fermentation-purged dry hop keg. *Then do an oxygen-free transfer to the DH keg over the hops, (or I may do the transfer first and then drop the hops). At that point, with the butterfly valve on the DH keg closed, I can remove the hop bong and place an end cap over the BF valve. After two or three days I'll do another oxygen-free transfer off the hops into the serving keg.

*Due to hop absorption I'll not be able to transfer a full 5 gallons into the DH keg. If anyone knows of a standard hop absorption rate I'd love to hear.

 

[Willy]

I understand it is often recipe independent, but when do you usually drop your hops into the fermenter with the bong???
For me it is 7 days from finished to 3 days from finished. But I am curious - what do you do ?

 

[BongoYodeler]

I understand it is often recipe independent, but when do you usually drop your hops into the fermenter with the bong???
For me it is 7 days from finished to 3 days from finished. But I am curious - what do you do ?

Me? The next time I use the hop bong will be my first time. I plan on using the process I mentioned in my previous post.

 

[BongoYodeler]

Circling back....
I had a few non dry hopped beers I needed to pump out before I could try this for real on a dry hopped ipa. But I wanted to finally update this thread with my real world experience with oxygen-free dry hopping in a corny keg, using a hop bong. Tonight, after previously cold crashing my fermenter to 48° and holding for a couple days, I pressure transferred around 4.75 gallons of a "clean-out-the-freezer" ipa from the fermenter to the dry hop keg, with the hop bong assembly attached, (like in post #44 above, but will all the parts). The dry hop quantity for this one was 8.25oz of pellet hops, which I split up into two separate drops. For each I added the hops to the bong, sealed it up and used CO2 and the prv to purge any oxygen from the hops. Both drops went off without a hitch. All the hops dropped into the keg without getting hung up. I have a floating dip tube in the dh keg and will transfer one last time to the fermentation-purged serving keg in a couple days.


Next week I have to brew a coconut stout for a late-March festival our HB club will be pouring at. But after I keg that I'm planning on brewing a neipa which will have over pound of hops, most of which will be dry hop additions. Can't wait to try this again.