Just underprimed bottles, can I re-prime?

[DerStoff]

Fair enough. I've got a gnarly inch-wide scar in my arm to remind me why pressurized bottles should be treated carefully, but I certainly won't try to tell you what you should or shouldn't be afraid of. Just don't forget that overpressurized bottles are more likely to blow when you are handling them than when sitting under cardboard.

If you have a way of opening the bottles and letting them ferment out the sugar while open, like Revvy suggests, that's what I'd do, but certainly there's a reasonable chance that you'll have no problems otherwise.

ah, my sense of humour does not internetize well. I don't mean to trivialise such horrors nor condescend to someone going out of their way to help a complete stranger, please don't take what I said to mean that

I just meant that if I let the yeasties go after what little sugar there may be for the next 2-3 weeks, open them up and let the gas escape, then re-carb, would that not be ok...

or is what you're saying that if there is anything close to moderate carbonation after 2-3 weeks and I try to recarb I will could end up with beer shrapnel inside me?...cuz I like beer inside me....just not that way!

 

[MalFet]

Right, either way, one major difference between what you two seem to be saying is the addition of more yeast.

I don't know why you would need to add more yeast. I suspect that Revvy meant to say sugar there, but I'll let him speak for himself.

 

[DerStoff]

Doesn't this support the idea that the bottles are now underprimed? If as you say the bottom stays relatively put until the water level gets low to mix? But as the liquid was being added the first part of the solution, the most concentrated portion, was already on the floor!

I don't "know" but my educated guess is that a good portion of the priming solution was in the spilled portion.

I still support Revvy's idea as the best solution. Is it the only way? No.

Do you fully understand revvy's method? I'm a bit confused and he seems to have moved on before I could get some elaboration (I am a HB youngling and often don't understand even the most simple brewtalk). Could you, or anyone, help clarify?

 

[MalFet]

Doesn't this support the idea that the bottles are now underprimed? If as you say the bottom stays relatively put until the water level gets low to mix? But as the liquid was being added the first part of the solution, the most concentrated portion, was already on the floor!

Huh? If the concentrate is late to mix, why would it be the first thing out of the spout?

I don't "know" but my educated guess is that a good portion of the priming solution was in the spilled portion.

I still support Revvy's idea as the best solution. Is it the only way? No.

Do whatever you want. Fact is, neither of us has any idea, and no amount of educated guessing is going to change that. When exploding glass projectiles are in the mix, I tend to advocate caution.

 

[MalFet]

ah, my sense of humour does not internetize well. I don't mean to trivialise such horrors nor condescend to someone going out of their way to help a complete stranger, please don't take what I said to mean that

No worries man, and I certainly didn't take anything you said as condescending.

I just meant that if I let the yeasties go after what little sugar there may be for the next 2-3 weeks, open them up and let the gas escape, then re-carb, would that not be ok...

or is what you're saying that if there is anything close to moderate carbonation after 2-3 weeks and I try to recarb I will could end up with beer shrapnel inside me?...cuz I like beer inside me....just not that way!

If anything is way over-primed (and it very well might not be), it would already blow or be close to blowing by the 3 week mark. If you do it now after three days in the bottle, you'll probably be able to diagnose the situation yourself. If you a lot of gas escaping from a couple of bottles, that's a good sign that a few bottles got overdosed.

 

[kh54s10]

Huh? If the concentrate is late to mix, why would it be the first thing out of the spout?



Do whatever you want. Fact is, neither of us has any idea, and no amount of educated guessing is going to change that. When exploding glass projectiles are in the mix, I tend to advocate caution.

Well I guess I am assuming that the remainder, after the spigot was closed got sufficiently mixed.

To the OP:
I don't think you really need to add any yeast, there should be plenty. Assuming the priming sugar was mixed relatively well I would let them condition for 2 weeks to let the yeast ferment out the priming sugar. In the mean time I would get some priming tablets. Then pry up the caps just enough to release the pressure. Allow the beers to go flat again, how long? I don't really know. Then add the priming tabs and recap.

To be sure there is enough yeast you could add some. Again, how much? I don't know.

Most of my carbonation problems have been on the too much end.

 

[DerStoff]

No worries man, and I certainly didn't take anything you said as condescending.



If anything is way over-primed (and it very well might not be), it would already blow or be close to blowing by the 3 week mark. If you do it now after three days in the bottle, you'll probably be able to diagnose the situation yourself. If you a lot of gas escaping from a couple of bottles, that's a good sign that a few bottles got overdosed.

Do you really think any could actually be overdosed?? I'm a bit confused by what you seem to think has happened. It seems you are under the impression (having some experience in a similar area relating to mixing liquids) that even though I certainly lost some amount of sugar, the way fluid dynamics work is that some of the early bottles actually took in more sugar than they ought to have?

Unfortunately like all things HB there's not a simple consensus view.

I don't entirely understand Revvy's suggestion but see his point about oxygen risk.

What is it that you think I'm best to do considering (and rightly so) the very possible risk of dangerous bottle bombs due to an unknown amount of priming sugar in a beer? i.e. the cautious approach?

 

[DerStoff]

Well I guess I am assuming that the remainder, after the spigot was closed got sufficiently mixed.

To the OP:
I don't think you really need to add any yeast, there should be plenty. Assuming the priming sugar was mixed relatively well I would let them condition for 2 weeks to let the yeast ferment out the priming sugar. In the mean time I would get some priming tablets. Then pry up the caps just enough to release the pressure. Allow the beers to go flat again, how long? I don't really know. Then add the priming tabs and recap.

To be sure there is enough yeast you could add some. Again, how much? I don't know.

Most of my carbonation problems have been on the too much end.

Yeah see all these unknowns are not only dangerous (bottle bombs) but really time consuming (waiting for beer to go flat...how could anyone who loves beer know this?) and if I'm gonna add priming tab (some reputation for overcarbing) I wanted a low-carbed ale'y type thing anyway, adding new yeast(more overcarbing, bottle bombs again), how to add said yeast (rehydrate first? a starter?)....arrghhh

I think I will just drink a non-carbonated fermented malt beverage and make bloody well sure that next time my taps are closed before I start racking my precious libations onto terra f*ing firma!

Anyone want to hate on this idea?

 

[eastoak]

I don't entirely understand Revvy's suggestion but see his point about oxygen risk.

it's a certainty not a risk. no matter how "carefully" (whatever that means for a liquid pouring out of a bottle) you pour a beer out it will be traveling through the air, no way around that. uncapping each bottle and priming is the only way to avoid O2 pickup in this case.

wait until you keg your first batch....

 

[Zuljin]

Taht ginger beer I made where every bottle opens with a POW! didnt bottle bomb. I doubt anything suggest here is going to make the beer closet a walk in Cambodia. And yes. I play hopscotch in Cambodia. As amatter of fact, the reason you have to throw a rock is to check for mines. A lot of people don;t know that.

Triple berry beer that blew aprt an airlock didn;t bottle bomb.

Bottles bombs can happen. But its possible ve probable.

If youere reely worried, do it my way, minus a used party pig, of course. Not so good beer vs loosing a hand. It takes a long time to grow back a hand. And yes. i grew back a hand. Handstand hopscotch. Hardcore.

If you referment, you're at that step again. No worries. cept for cardboard beer. Flat or maybe not so good. Either way is not so good. It worked fine for me. Anecdote.

 

[MalFet]

Do you really think any could actually be overdosed?? I'm a bit confused by what you seem to think has happened. It seems you are under the impression (having some experience in a similar area relating to mixing liquids) that even though I certainly lost some amount of sugar, the way fluid dynamics work is that some of the early bottles actually took in more sugar than they ought to have?

I really have no idea. Here are the three things that I do know and can assert with some experience:

1) Buckets drain in complex ways. It is not safe to assume that the stuff on the bottom was the stuff that drained out first, though it certainly could have.
2) If your priming sugar didn't get mixed well, there is a reasonable chance that it was unevenly distributed amongst your bottles. Maybe some of it drained out, maybe it didn't. Maybe the first bottles got too much sugar, maybe the last bottles did, and maybe they all got just the right amount. There's really know way to know through speculation.
3) Beer bottles start exploding once you get much north of 3 or 3.5 volumes. It doesn't take much excess sugar to get there.

I certainly don't mean to tell you what to do, but given the unknowns there is some risk here. The problem is not that the liquid spilled but rather that you don't trust that the priming sugar was evenly mixed. That is probably the most common cause of exploding bottles.


(As a side note, adding more yeast won't lead to overcarbing. Carbonation rates aren't effected by yeast quantities under most circumstances.)

 

[Revvy]

I said sugar AND fresh yeast. Rehydrate yeast and add a couple MLs along with the prime tabs. Adding more yeast will NEVER hurt a beer. It can only ferment the sugars available. I just figured that after fermenting a beer, AND fermenting what little sugars ended up in the bottles they would be a liitle tired, PLUS adding fresh yeast will speed the process along, since clearly you don't want to wait more than you have to for this beer to carb. The addition of fresh sugar, i.e. prime tabs should be obvious, my idea is to let the sugar that did make it into bottles ferment out asnd do nothing more than add a micro raise to the abv....then basically start over from scratch and re-carb the beer.

The ONLY difference from my idea and anyone elses, is to keep it in the bottle, NOT dump anything back into the airspace of a bucket.

Hope I'm clearer now......Ultimately you're going to have to decide for yourself what's more important/worrisome to you, oxidation which will make your beer taste like ****, or bottle bombs, which I don't think you have to worry about, but other folks do.....

You have tons of info handed to you, all excellant, but from different perspectives, and filtered through different life experiences....but it all comes down t you, what "seems" right in light of whatever decision making "software" you use to process data......

Best of luck to you...

 

[DerStoff]

it's a certainty not a risk. no matter how "carefully" (whatever that means for a liquid pouring out of a bottle) you pour a beer out it will be traveling through the air, no way around that. uncapping each bottle and priming is the only way to avoid O2 pickup in this case.

wait until you keg your first batch....

Right ok, despite some anecdotal evidence here, I don't think I will be doing the who re-pour to Bottle bucket...

But the downside risk of re-priming the bottle is a lot worse than the downside risk of oxygenation so that's naturally affecting my decision.

The thing is, I can't ignore the good point made here, made first by myself, is unfortunately there's really no way at all to know how much priming sugar is in these bottles. Even if I open up one or two now and notice carbonation, this is my first homebrew, I only know what a properly carbed beer feels like, what would this even achieve?

Each bottle could have its own carb level...how long would I have to wait for it to go flat? When would I do this?

As I said before theres too many unknowns the most important being the amount of sugar that is in any given bottle (could literally have no sugar or could have 40gs) I'm not inclined to be soothed by anecdotes of 'my really carbonated thing didn't blow up on me...I think re-priming my unknown carbed beer would at best result in ok tasting beer and at worst serious injury...

I'm glad I sought help here, but I think I might just have to RDWHAveryflatbutsafeHB

 

[DerStoff]

Thanks for explaining Revvy, quite clear now...except one thing, how long would I have to wait in between opening the bottles and adding the priming sugar/yeast?

...I've got some thinking to do.

I want to thank both you especially Revvy and MalFet (and all others) who took the time to participate in this fast-growing thread all for my personal benefit...whatever happens to my beer the Homebrew community remains as tasty as a perfectly carbed beer

I'm now equipped with some pretty good info and techniques and will have to have a good think about what I'm to do!

I can update to let all know what goes down if that's cool. Cheers again guise! Happy brewing

 

[Revvy]

I don't know. No one does....if we operate on the premise that it takes 3 weeks when a beer is at 70 degrees, for the yeast to ferment 1 oz/5 gallons of beer (the usual amount of sugar we use to carbonate a batch of beer) then it would take somewhere between 1 and 3 weeks approx, to ferment out whatever is still in there....since I'm a man of patience, and usually have a pipeline, I would wait the full three weeks to be sure, than start from scratch with the beer. I've more than likely, the way I brew normally have bottled/put something else in a keg (I keg and bottle) AND brewed another batch, so pulling something out of rotation is no skin off my teeth, plus buy beer......so whatever time I need to fix a beer, I invest in it.....

 

[DerStoff]

I don't know. No one does....if we operate on the premise that it takes 3 weeks when a beer is at 70 degrees, for the yeast to ferment 1 oz/5 gallons of beer (the usual amount of sugar we use to carbonate a batch of beer) then it would take somewhere between 1 and 3 weeks approx, to ferment out whatever is still in there....since I'm a man of patience, and usually have a pipeline, I would wait the full three weeks to be sure, than start from scratch with the beer. I've more than likely, the way I brew normally have bottled/put something else in a keg (I keg and bottle) AND brewed another batch, so pulling something out of rotation is no skin off my teeth, plus buy beer......so whatever time I need to fix a beer, I invest in it.....

Right I get that I mean, you mentioned earlier (as did others who thought this method would be best) mentioned that after this current one 'carbs' up the next few weeks, I should remove the caps, then add primetabs/yeast.

My question is, should I wait a specific time between uncapping this and adding the primetabs/yeast to let the co2 escape (someone said i should wait for it to go flat ಠ_ಠ )?

You're right, patience is what to do. My frustration was getting the better of me. I'll see where these guys are in 3 weeks, maybe 4, then re-carb with primetabs and some rehydrated yeast if the samples are consistently non/under/decently carbed.

Thanks again

 

[Revvy]

I don't know...this is an odd situation, your really in uncharted territory here...you really want to "degass" as the winemakers talk about. But how with beer is an issue. Would taking the handle of a spoon, sanitizing it, and stirring the beer in the bottle release the co2 without oxidizing the beer? Who knows...Or would sitting it for 10 minutes uncapped let the gas out? Sadly I doubt if even the most expert of s, can answer that. If there were only tiny amount of sugar that made it to the bottles, I don't think it would take all that much...

You know what I would do first at this stage? Ass soon as your beer has been bottled for the equivalent of 3 weeks at 70 degrees, I would chill a bottle for 48 hours and then test it......for all this worry, for all these debates, what if there ended up EXACTLY the right amount of co2 in solution for this beer? Maybe all this drama has been for naught and everything is perfectly fine? You know for every style of beer there is a RANGE of co2 offered....what if the perfect amount of carb developed in the bottles, and all this is for nothing?

 

[DerStoff]

I don't know...this is an odd situation, your really in uncharted territory here...you really want to "degass" as the winemakers talk about. But how with beer is an issue. Would taking the handle of a spoon, sanitizing it, and stirring the beer in the bottle release the co2 without oxidizing the beer? Who knows...Or would sitting it for 10 minutes uncapped let the gas out? Sadly I doubt if even the most expert of s, can answer that. If there were only tiny amount of sugar that made it to the bottles, I don't think it would take all that much...

You know what I would do first at this stage? Ass soon as your beer has been bottled for the equivalent of 3 weeks at 70 degrees, I would chill a bottle for 48 hours and then test it......for all this worry, for all these debates, what if there ended up EXACTLY the right amount of co2 in solution for this beer? Maybe all this drama has been for naught and everything is perfectly fine? You know for every style of beer there is a RANGE of co2 offered....what if the perfect amount of carb developed in the bottles, and all this is for nothing?

You're right on both fronts, and I will certainly hope fore, and let all involved know, if they turn out nicely carbed, fingers crossed, cynicism stowed.

About that degassing thing...yeah pretty shameful to try and have to do that. We do have things here colloquially called 'wine wanks' that reverse pump the air out of the tops of wine bottles used for pouring by the glass in restaurants, could actually work well to try and suck all the carbonation out of a beer (I've seen an inexperienced server flatten a whole bottle of Prosecco doing this...should work in theory).

I'll be sure to return her in 3-4 weeks to let you know if I kicked up a fuss for nothing!

 

[DerStoff]

Hey guys, I just wanted to let everyone know (don't know if anyone will look back to this thread) that the beer turned out to be ok. 3 weeks at about 72-73F (22-23C for me) carbed them up a wee bit.

It's about the carbonation level I expect from a traditional cask ale pulled in a pub, so for a bottled beer it is undercarbed, as a dirty blonde ale (I might have the steeped CaraPils to thank for this) it is actually carbed just enough.

I really appreciate the great responses and feedback I received from you guys. At this point, it's very much a low carbed beer but for my CAMRA drinking compatriots it should do just fine. The only thing left to do is to eliminate that beet kit 'twang' which I hope should be lessened as the bottles mature (it's only been 18 days so the carbonation and flavours should better establish over time).

I must extend an enormous thank you to all in this thread and the general HomeBrewTalk forum for putting out such quality info and advice on demand and in archive, for it was only due to folks like yourselves that I was able to achieve a very decent (not great but not terrible) first ever homebrew batch!

Cheers again and Hoappy brewing

 

[Revvy]

So are you in England? If so, can you jump into this thread? There's a guy saying living in England is a homebrewing ghetto, and I just think he's not looking hard enough to find like minded indivduals. I posted all the English homebrewing sites I, living in the states am familiar with just because I've researched English brewing stuff, often on those forums.

If not, disregard.

 

[DerStoff]

PS MalFet, no bottle bombs so good news there!

Revvy, thanks for your insight. As usual you predicted a decent beer, shows your general advice of 'patience and let the yeast do their thang' is always true and often under-appreciated (after working with some calculators I learned that Bitters or rather many traditional English Ale styles don't even recommend adding any sugar post fermentation, so I think my dirty Blonde has turned out quite like them).

Next up a Hefeweizen (homebrew level of difficulty = easy...fermentation temps well under control [living in UK, using aquarium heated water bath achieves constant 68-70F]) so I hope my harvested bottles can take it!

Thanks again! Hoappy brewing

 

[MalFet]

PS MalFet, no bottle bombs so good news there!

Great! Glad to hear it.

 

[DerStoff]

So are you in England? If so, can you jump into this thread? There's a guy saying living in England is a homebrewing ghetto, and I just think he's not looking hard enough to find like minded indivduals. I posted all the English homebrewing sites I, living in the states am familiar with just because I've researched English brewing stuff, often on those forums.

If not, disregard.

PS in Scotland but actually more of a homebrew 'ghetto' than any Englishman could claim But yes I posted into that forum; I hope I can reciprocate all the help I receive from this place!

Hoappy Brewing