Is my batch going to be terrible?

[OhSoHumuLonely]

Hello guys,

So I quickly decided that extract brewing was too expensive for me to do and wanted to switch to all-grain. I now have three all-grain brews going, two pretty much done fermenting and aging a bit in their primaries, and my most recent one is getting close to finishing up fermenting. My experiment for my first three AG batches were to be a light, medium, and dark beer.

This most recent recipe... I might have gone a little overboard. My wife and I LOVE very bitter beers. When I showed her the hops I had lying around (5 oz) and asked which she thought I should use for this batch, she said all of them, and I figured "Why not?" Also, my mash was a little higher than planned (about 158 degrees), so I figured a lot of unfermentables were formed. Part way through the boil, I got online and calculated approximate IBU, and it came out so high, I figured I'd throw in some extra sugar to up to ABV to balance out the expected high body and high IBU. I don't know if I have a complete mess or something that's going to turn out awesome.


Final Volume: 4.5 Gallons
Original Gravity: 1.101
Yeast: 1 L starter made from yeast harvested from Bell's Amber Ale

8.5 lb Pale Ale Malt
1 lb Crystal 120L
1 lb Chocolate Malt (i know this is a lot of 120L and chocolate, just wanted to experiment around with something dark and full bodied)
1 lb Dark Brown Sugar (15 min before flame out)
3 lb Table Sugar (15 min before flame out)

Mash at 158 for 1 h.

1 oz Nuggest (13.3%) - 60 min
1/2 oz Chinook (12.0%), 1/4 oz Northern Brewer (9.9%), 1/4 7C's (9.9%) - 50 min
1/2 oz Chinook (12.0%), 1/4 oz Northern Brewer (9.9%), 1/4 7C's (9.9%) - 40 min
1/2 oz Chinook (12.0%), 1/4 oz Northern Brewer (9.9%), 1/4 7C's (9.9%) - 30 min
1/4 oz Chinook (12.0%), 1/8 oz Northern Brewer (9.9%), 1/8 7C's (9.9%) - 15 min
1/4 oz Chinook (12.0%), 1/8 oz Northern Brewer (9.9%), 1/8 7C's (9.9%) - 5 min

I assume this would be considered an Imperial Black IPA?

So do you think it'll take awesome or taste like crap?

If it's good, I plan to give some out for friends to try and suggest they start brewing.

If it tastes like crap, I'll drink it all... slowly, as I expect it to be quite strong.

Ughh, anticipation, but I don't expect to be drinking one this in less than 3 or 4 months as I will be bottle conditioning for a good two months.

Don't make too much fun, I'm a noob who jumped in who committed some irreversible acts and tried balancing them...

 

[mrphillips]

YIKES! That's gunna be a spicy batch for sure! Looks like your ABV will be around 12%. That's a little rich for my blood, but you never know till you try. Looks like you might have a Dark Double IPA...or maybe even a hoppy motor oil. Haha! Sorry to pick on ya. There is no progress without experimentation.

I am a little curious about the "irreversible acts" you mentioned. How did this dark monster begin its life?

 

[masskrug]

3 Lbs of table sugar, 1 lb of dark brown sugar and 1 pound of crystal 120 in 4.5 gallons? Oh Lord! You might want to add a gallon of distilled water to the fermenter.

I only see 3 oz of hops in the description.

Good luck! It sounds a bit malty and sweet.

 

[OhSoHumuLonely]

You might want to add a gallon of distilled water to the fermenter.

I only see 3 oz of hops in the description.

Ah, I'm just going to let it go. I figure it's going to be extreme in every aspect. Let's just say I don't expect to pound these.

As for the hops, if you look, I added 1 oz four times, and 1/2 oz twice. Each time after first addition was a combination.

 

[wilserbrewer]

The worst issue is that you have added 4 lbs sugar, with only 8.5 lbs of base malt. Typically I believe most like to keep a sugar addition below 20% of the base malt.

This batch may need a bit of time to condition...good luck!

 

[aiptasia]

Yep, the table sugar should have been dialed back a bit (by 2/3rds). White sugar tends to thin the beer and at higher concentrations tends to leave off flavors (rummy, sherry, wine-like). If you stuck with all chinook, i'd say you have a black IPA version of a Stone Arrogant Bastard. Chinook makes for a good single hop beer. Since the nugget was used as a bittering hop, the chinook is going to shine through and dominate anyway.

It's going to be bitter but it might have that annoying wine flavor. If it's too bitter, just let it condition a few months in the bottle.

 

[Demus]

With all that sugar, you don't have to worry about it being sweet. I'd be concerned about he opposite.

 

[OhSoHumuLonely]

Well, I have an explanation on the sugar. I haven't bought a scale yet, so I've been doing everything by volume. I'm a chemist, so I know mass is much better than volume for measuring, I just haven't gotten around to buying one yet. Anyway... I had my conversion wrong. I know now that 2 cups of sugar equals approximately 1 pound. For some reason, I thought it was half of that, so without looking anything up, I added six cups of sugar when I would have reached my intended outcome in 2 or 3 cups. Dumb, I know, but like I said, I tend to be impetuous. I'll just know not to be SO impetuous next time.

 

[OhSoHumuLonely]

I have considered adding some diluted dme or something in order to lower the sugar to malt ratio. Would that help at all?

 

[bethebrew]

I have considered adding some diluted dme or something in order to lower the sugar to malt ratio. Would that help at all?

It should.

Next time eliminate EFFING cane sugar from beer making. Eliminate corn, rice, and only use DME for bottle conditioning. That's my advice.

Best of luck.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I have considered adding some diluted dme or something in order to lower the sugar to malt ratio. Would that help at all?

You certainly could, but at this point your sugar addition is so out of balance, and your OG so high, I think you would likely end up with 10 gallons of questionable beer rather than 5. I would invest your time and money in another batch before trying to salvage or improve this one. Sorry JMO???

 

[OhSoHumuLonely]

Thank you, all! I will not be adding anything. I gave it a taste, and I know it's not extremely representative of the final product, but I think it tasted pretty good.

I enjoy beers like Bell's Two Hearted a lot. As I said, my favorite beers are extremely bitter IPA's. Last night I tried Duck Rabbit's Hoppy Bunny American Black Ale, and it's maltier than I typically go for, but I LOVED it. I know this thing is going to be like 4-5% more alcohol than that, but what I tasted was sort of like that, just sweeter.

I think about a month and a half or so in the fermenter, maybe some dry hopping, 2+ months in bottles, this thing will turn out more than drinkable by my standards.

Next time eliminate EFFING cane sugar from beer making. Eliminate corn, rice, and only use DME for bottle conditioning. That's my advice.

I know I am looking at this in very quantitative term - As I said, I'm a chemist. At this point, I have no interest in corn or rice, but what's the problem with cane sugar?

Theoretically, sucrose should have a similar effect to glucose and maltose. Sucrose is simply a glucose and a fructose bound together, where maltose is two glucose molecules bound together. Both are cleaved, and fructose is oxidized similarly to glucose, as it is an isomer of glucose.

I can understand why suger-to-grain ratio should be low, especially if you're mashing at a low temperature, making mostly fermentable sugars and not much body, because they you're going to make your beer even thinner.

The reason I added so much sugar is because first of all, I wanted to balance the high IBU with high ABV. Secondly, I mashed pretty high with a lot of dark malt, so I thought raising ABV would also dry it out some to balance the high level of dextrins.

I know I could have used some extra light DME, but figured 1. table sugar should do the job just fine since I didn't want to add any more dextrins and 2. it was cheaper.

I don't always aim for cheap because I'd prefer quality over quantity in most cases, but here it worked out that way and I didn't have to drive 20 min back to the LHBS to get DME where they charge me $6/lb.

 

[lowtones84]

No need to completely eliminate simple sugars from brewing, but 4 lbs. is a lot, as you have already discussed. The problem is that sugar dries out the beer and instead of balancing the IBUs it will probably just make the bitterness even more apparent, honestly. I see where your logic went and I understand but in my experience beers that are very dry make the hops shine through more because there isn't much residual sweetness from the malt.

But whatever man, I don't think it will be a total disaster. That's a lot of sugar so I'm sure you're not going to end up with what you were trying for, but I bet it could be interesting with some conditioning time.

 

[Demus]

I'd like to chime in about the hops. 5 oz isn't really that much, especially since you say you like hoppy brews. Your hop schedule is whacky tho. Maximum utilization of alpha acids (bittering) is at :55-:60. Flavor and aroma compounds are much more volatile and most are lost on about :25-:30. Therefore, additions at :50, :40, and :30 are kind of a waste. Your not getting full bittering potential but are boiling off all the flavor and aroma. It's better to use your high alpha% hops for a :60 bittering charge, and your nicer more expensive varieties to build in flavor and aroma in the :20 down to flameout range. Dry hopping for a week or so after fermentation can really help you get that nose full of hops when you raise the glass...

 

[OhSoHumuLonely]

I was aiming for a continuous hopping without having to constantly babysit the boil. Is that not advisable? Like I said, I'm an experimentalist and I was just trying to screw around and see if I could get some effect that I liked. Are there no real pros to continuous hopping like that?

 

[Demus]

Like I said, at :25 minutes or less, continuously hopping is great because you get more of the flavor aroma profile. Longer than that the only advantage is getting rid of extra hops. Most people don't have extra to waste tho!!

 

[wilserbrewer]

I know I am looking at this in very quantitative term - As I said, I'm a chemist. At this point, I have no interest in corn or rice, but what's the problem with cane sugar?

Theoretically, sucrose should have a similar effect to glucose and maltose. Sucrose is simply a glucose and a fructose bound together, where maltose is two glucose molecules bound together. Both are cleaved, and fructose is oxidized similarly to glucose, as it is an isomer of glucose.

I can understand why suger-to-grain ratio should be low, especially if you're mashing at a low temperature, making mostly fermentable sugars and not much body, because they you're going to make your beer even thinner.

As a chemist, yes the sucrose is just a glucose and fructose bound together, but somehow the yeast know the difference. I have long forgotten the exact reason to keep the sucrose below say 20%. Yeast nutrition and health play a role I believe...the yeast can and will break the bond for you, but I believe it takes a little effort on their part and this can impart off flavors...

Don't shun corn, rice or wheat either IMO...I use rice and wheat a bit to bring a different set to some beers....I have even been known to toss a few pounds of overcooked pasta into the mash...pasta is just 100% wheat and works nicely for a summer type brew IME.

 

[OhSoHumuLonely]

I shall do biochem experiments on this... some day when I have my own lab. In grad school now.

 

[bethebrew]

I shall do biochem experiments on this... some day when I have my own lab. In grad school now.

For beer, as a German, and because it makes the best beer, I use malted barley, water, yeast and hops. I use only leaf hops. I bottle condition only, period. Occasionally I add some rye and oats and a little wheat. I use DME as a priming sugar.

The use of adjuncts in beer is largely because large brewers are CHEAP. Rice is cheap, corn is cheaper, and sugar cheap too. Cane sugar is better than beer sugar, at least the cane sugar isn't from a GMO source. Corn is pretty much all GMO and not sure why you would want to add that to your beer for any reason. Dextrose vs. DME for bottling, hmmm I think I will go DME.

White sugar in beer adds a cidery note that is not pleasant. Perhaps this is why Belgians will never be on my list of favorites.

Most of the styles I like to brew don't require any sugar adjuncts. I might throw in a little organic molasses in a big stout but that's a little different story. Good molasses actually tastes good, and is good for you.

OP once you finally commit to literally all grain I think your life will be better.

Cheers.

 

[OhSoHumuLonely]

For beer, as a German, and because it makes the best beer, I use malted barley, water, yeast and hops. I use only leaf hops. I bottle condition only, period. Occasionally I add some rye and oats and a little wheat. I use DME as a priming sugar.

The use of adjuncts in beer is largely because large brewers are CHEAP. Rice is cheap, corn is cheaper, and sugar cheap too. Cane sugar is better than beer sugar, at least the cane sugar isn't from a GMO source. Corn is pretty much all GMO and not sure why you would want to add that to your beer for any reason. Dextrose vs. DME for bottling, hmmm I think I will go DME.

White sugar in beer adds a cidery note that is not pleasant. Perhaps this is why Belgians will never be on my list of favorites.

Most of the styles I like to brew don't require any sugar adjuncts. I might throw in a little organic molasses in a big stout but that's a little different story. Good molasses actually tastes good, and is good for you.

OP once you finally commit to literally all grain I think your life will be better.

Cheers.

I'll assume a big "in my opinion" disclaimer on this entire post.

 

[texcan2000]

Actually I've read rice is more expensive than barley. Early American brewers used rice and corn adjuncts to lighten the flavor profile as 6 row barley was more abundant than 2 row.

 

[bethebrew]

I'll assume a big "in my opinion" disclaimer on this entire post.

I'll assume you will go back to extract brewing. You don't seem ready for all grain yet.

 

[bethebrew]

Actually I've read rice is more expensive than barley. Early American brewers used rice and corn adjuncts to lighten the flavor profile as 6 row barley was more abundant than 2 row.

Interesting. Well if that's the style and it's been around for that long and that's what BJCP judges expect then it's appropriate to add. Just like candi sugar for a Belgian. Not something I would brew but to each his own.

 

[lowtones84]

I'll assume you will go back to extract brewing. You don't seem ready for all grain yet.

Wow man, no need for that. Your post was vastly your opinion. Plenty of people use differing amounts of differing sugars in their beer. I use a small amount frequently just to lighten the body a bit or make it more dry. If you don't like to that's fine, but don't criticize those that do.

Plus, the OP is just asking for help with this batch, and he realizes he made some mistakes. I don't think he needs an overhaul on his brewing philosophy.

 

[OhSoHumuLonely]

I'll assume you will go back to extract brewing. You don't seem ready for all grain yet.

That's funny because I was just saying the other day how I hoping some guy would assume something about me that was completely false and at the same time insult an entire country's beer.

I know that some of the folks around here like to jokingly classify themselves as "beer snobs," but I'm pretty sure that's not a suggestion or invitation to be a full-blooded snob.

 

[OhSoHumuLonely]

Nevermind. I looked back. This guy has a history of telling people what to do, then starting fights when they disagree. So about other stuff... I poured fruit into a beer a couple weeks from bottling... Now it's not really beer, huh?

 

[wilserbrewer]

I just gotta say that I applaud OhSoHunuLonely...sure he may have hit a little pothole here adding 4 lbs of cane sugar and a lb of chocolate malt, but he is brewing without fear, and that is a characteristic that makes an experienced brewer someday. IMO...we could use use more of that around here.

Seems like some noobs are so afraid to depart more than a gram beyond what beersmith is telling them...glad to know the spirit is still alive and well...we salute you!

 

[OhSoHumuLonely]

Thank you! Hey, the pound of chocolate malt and the pound of Crystal 120L... was because the site I ordered from didn't allow me to go under a pound of each ingredient. I have since come to realize those things aren't usually used in those quantities. But like I said, I experiment. It's how I got good at cooking, and it'll be how I get good at this. The results of this just take a lot longer to qualify.

 

[stpug]

You're on an experimental track here and I think it'll lead you to some good results. The recipe definitely seems..... uhhh..... unbalanced, but that's what experimenting is all about. Besides, it's your sh*t so who cares. I'd love to try it so I had an idea of how those ingredients went together (just don't want a full keg of it ).

Regardless, if it comes out too sweet then try adding the dregs from a bottle of Orval (i.e. Brett Brux) to chew it down a few points. If it comes out too dry, then you can always boil up some lactose in a small amount of water and add to the fermenter to bring up the sweet level. You're bound to have a high ABV brew so expect to bottle this batch and let it age some. If after you hit OG you're missing something then look to some bourbon?, oak?, vanilla?, etc to bring it into a style that will work for you. Again, it's experimentation so have fun with it!!

....and this:

I'll assume you will go back to extract brewing. You don't seem ready for all grain yet.

What a poor sport whiny sissy pants Dish it but can't take it.

 

[OhSoHumuLonely]

Tried it. So good. High abv porter is what it turned out tasting like to me. So much tasty.