Importance of water?

[BrewnWKopperKat]

... continuing with a thought based on my previous reply on alkalinity limits ...

Starting out with DME/LME, there's nothing wrong with using tap water of an unknown mineral content - as long as the beer comes out fine. But if the beer ends up with unexpected flavors, inappropriate mineral content needs to be considered as a source of the unexpected flavors.

Starting with distilled/RO/low mineral water is one way to avoid the troubleshooting step.

If mineral content of the tap water is known, there appears to be information (note: this is speculation) in a couple of places that can be used to establish rough ppm ranges for good vs poor tap water. Once this is known, some of the techniques that people use to dilute minerals / alkalinity may (again: this is speculation) be appropriate for adjusting tap water when brewing with DME/LME.

 

[jerrylotto]

If we're talking about the report attached to the OP, the 130 ppm hardness is correct (within rounding errors) for 36 ppm Ca and 10 ppm Mg

(2.5 x 36 ppm Ca) + (4.1 x 10 ppm Mg) = 131 ppm Hardness

Took me a minute to figure out where this came from. Total hardness is expressed as molar mass equivalents of CaCO3

CaC03 = 100.1 g/mol
Ca2+ = 40.1 g/mol
Mg2+= 24.3 g/mol

So, molar mass ratios can be expressed as:
MCaCO3 / MCa = 100.1 / 40.1 = 2.5
MCaCO3 / MMg = 100.1 / 24.3 = 4.1

 

[csantoni]

Did you see chloride and sulfates listed somewhere in that report?

OK, that's weird. I initially downloaded the attachment in the OP on my phone and it was a totally different pdf than what I just got when using my PC. I retract my comment above.

 

[IslandLizard]

OK, that's weird. I initially downloaded the attachment in the OP on my phone and it was a totally different pdf than what I just got when using my PC. I retract my comment above.

That's the best excuse I've ever heard!

 

[csantoni]

That's the best excuse I've ever heard!

I mean, I totally admit it was some kind of user error (I work in software, I know about idiot users) but I swear I was looking at a sideways pdf of various treatment plants with the mineral contents listed when I wrote my comment. I need a "no, really, I swear!" emoji.

 

[VikeMan]

I mean, I totally admit it was some kind of user error (I work in software, I know about idiot users)

Have you tried turning it off and on again?

 

[jerrylotto]

Did you see chloride and sulfates listed somewhere in that report?

That was the primary reason I suggested that the OP might want to get a Ward Labs report.

 

[IslandLizard]

I WE need a "no, really, I swear!" emoji.

@HBT_Admin

 

[HBT_Admin]

I mean, I totally admit it was some kind of user error (I work in software, I know about idiot users) but I swear I was looking at a sideways pdf of various treatment plants with the mineral contents listed when I wrote my comment. I need a "no, really, I swear!" emoji.

What does a "No, really, I swear" emoji look like?

 

[IslandLizard]

That was the primary reason I suggested that the OP might want to get a Ward Labs report.

As long as his water supply is indeed as constant as his water company claims it is.

Even so, I'd contact the water company instead, and ask for their "Quality Control Dept."
Ask them about those other minerals/ions (e.g., Cl-, SO4-- etc) that are missing from the report. They have the numbers as well as their variation over time and with the seasons.

That's how I got mine, at a total cost of... $0.

 

[csantoni]

What does a "No, really, I swear" emoji look like?

some combination of and

 

[Bobby_M]

In the grand scheme of the cost of a batch of beer, especially if you grant a very small hourly wage to your time spent, 6 gallons of RO or distilled water is practically nothing. When brewing extracts, it's a very simple choice to avoid any water based off flavors.

 

[Gusso]

That was the primary reason I suggested that the OP might want to get a Ward Labs report.

Even though I've been brewing for about 15 years, I just recently starting using Bru'n Water. Definitely makes a major difference. A Ward report would be mostly worthless to me as my local water reports fluctuate monthly (they actually have a "Homebrewing" chart on my local water website). Unfortunately, the figures are usually a month or two behind. I now use RO and build.

 

[Oleson M.D.]

Our city tap water is very constant, with only minor variations from month to month.
We filter our water, with a high quality countertop cartridge type filter, and/or our built in RO system.

As is, the water has a good base profile for most any beer. So we never add anything. Works for us.

 

[VikeMan]

We filter our water, with a high quality countertop cartridge type filter, and/or our built in RO system.

You RO filter and then add nothing back? For all grain?

As is, the water has a good base profile for most any beer. So we never add anything.

I would argue that no one profile is good for most any beer. From a pH perspective, it can't be, if we define "good" as the bare minimum of getting mash pH somewhere between 5.2 and 5.6. (Let alone flavor and mouthfeel considerations.)

 

[Oleson M.D.]

Correct. We do not modify the city tap water, with the exception of filtration.
Yes, all grain.

 

[VikeMan]

Correct. We do not modify the city tap water, with the exception of filtration.
Yes, all grain.

If you RO filter, you are certainly modifying it.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Our city tap water is very constant, with only minor variations from month to month.
We filter our water, with a high quality countertop cartridge type filter, and/or our built in RO system.

As is, the water has a good base profile for most any beer. So we never add anything. Works for us.

Anecdotal stories on individuals tap water are, at best, a feel good read.

Most likely, the stories have little value as everyone is likely to have tap water with a different mineral content.

On the other hand, stories on individuals tap water which include needed mineral content (and adjustments that are made) can be useful - as people do learn by example.

 

[Oleson M.D.]

Anecdotal stories on individuals tap water are, at best, a feel good read.

Most likely, the stories have little value as everyone is likely to have tap water with a different mineral content.

On the other hand, stories on individuals tap water which include needed mineral content (and adjustments that are made) can be useful - as people do learn by example.

You asked for it...

Ca - 39
CaCO3 - 96
Mg - 4
Na - 30
SO4 - 58

 

[Oleson M.D.]

If you RO filter, you are certainly modifying it.

See post #46. Clearly stated that we modify with filtration.

 

[Bobby_M]

See post #46. Clearly stated that we modify with filtration.

I think the point that may not be have been articulated properly is that you were unclear whether you brew with 100% filtered tap water or 100% RO water or some combination of both. Without knowing the exact ionic content of the tap water, it is impossible that it is ideal for every beer style without some modification. Anecdotally being happy with all beer styles on that water source is fine. It is just not good general advice for anyone looking to maximize their success.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

For those that are looking for an introduction or remedial refresher article on the five six major ions in a water report, check out "The Big Six Water Ions and Water Chemistry in Beer Brewing" over at the BeerSmith blog. The Bru'n Water "Water Knowledge" page is also a good resource.

For those using RO/distilled water, zinc is helpful for yeast health, so some beer-specific yeast nutrient may be appropriate:

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Let's to back to a comment in #1:

I'm curious what you all do (if anything) to treat (or test) your water at any point in the brewing process.

My "aha" moment with regard to "water chemistry" and "all-grain" brewing is that it's really just water adjustments to achieve specific goals.

Start with a water source (generally of a known mineral content and answer the following questions:

1. what adjustments are needed to start with quality brewing water?
2. what adjustments are needed to achieve a proper mash?
3. what adjustments could be made to enhance the flavor of the beer?
4. what adjustments would be helpful for a healthy fermentation?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

With regard to water adjustments and extract brewing, there's this from a popular book (circa 2005):

RO/distilled water is a good solution to the 1st step, yeast nutrient for the 3rd.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Flavor adjustments for extract brewing are covered, in general, in a couple of books (circa 2017). There's also this table from a book (circa 2014):

note that profiles are brand specific & I'm going to respect the author's copyright. Generalized amounts (not specific to a brand of DME/LME can be found at the Bru'n Water web site, the Brun' Water Spreadsheet, and the Brewing Water article at the Craft Beer and Brewing web site.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

... and just one more thing (for today)

Water Chemistry: Straight vs. Adjusted RO Water In A Czech Pilsner | exBEERiment Results! (brulosophy web site) ...

... has a link to a presentation at NHC 2007.

In that presentation, the presenters brewed four beers:

1. a pale ale with "pale ale" water
2. a stout with "stout water"
3. a pale ale with "stout" water
4. a stout with "pale ale" water.

A couple of the slides at the end of the presentation may be of interest.

 

[IPAMike]

When using RO water, it is possible to start with water adjustments on your first 'all-grain' batch Water Chemistry: How to Build Your Water (link).

Thanks for the links!

 

[IPAMike]

At such an early stage, I would concentrate more on the brewing process and get that worked out before I even thought about water profiles. Heck, I've been brewing for 30 years, and the only time I do water adjustment, is if I brew something under 8 SRM. Otherwise I use my tap water with great results.

Thanks! I know I'm probably overthinking things at this point. I already eager to dig deeper into things.

 

[IPAMike]

Hey, the good news is that they disinfect with chorine (not chloramine) and use relatively low levels (4.0 ppm). Probably a good idea to let it sit out or boil off the free chlorine before use. You have pretty high alkalinity and hardness but Ca++ and Mg++ levels are pretty reasonable and I'm having some trouble reconciling those data. You might want to get a Ward Labs report. In any case, you are probably going to want some lactic or phosphoric acid on hand to adjust pH.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm not super up on water chemistry yet but learning...

 

[IPAMike]

That's a small but very important detail. ^
Chlorine "kills" beer.

Dosage: 1/4 crushed Campden tablet per 5 gallons of water. Just stir it well to dissolve. And stir it again, a minute or so later (timing is not critical). It works within minutes.


Campden works faster and 100% guaranteed to remove all traces of chlorine.
It's so easy, cheap, and imperceptible, it's borderline criminal that a Campden Tablet isn't included with every recipe kit.

Thanks! I need to pick up some bottle caps today anyway. I'm sure my local shop should have Campden tablets.