Imperial Chocolate Milk Stout is Stuck..

[BoomersBrews]

My attempt at an extract imperial chocolate milk stout (OG 1.102) is on day 10 in primary. I stupidly let the guy at my LHBS store convince me to use amber LME instead of the Pale LME I intended to use along with 6 lbs. of specialty grains. I now think there are too many non-fermentable sugars b/c my gravity is stuck at 1.042. I am aware of a few things I could do differently next time to ensure better attenuation, but I'm really posting this to see if there is anything I can do to fix this problem even a little bit. I was hoping for FG of about 1.035. Can I pitch more yeast? The sample actually tasted great so if there's nothing I can do, then will it still be drinkable? Am I at large risk of bottle bombs? Thanks to anyone who can help!

 

[TheZymurgist]

That's pretty low attenuation. Post up your recipe, along with the type and amount of yeast you used. Right now you're sitting at about 8% alcohol, and really, really sweet. I'm sure it will be drinkable at this point, just not really enjoyable.

The only way I've ever been able to get a fermentation to restart is to make a huge starter of WLP099 Super High Gravity yeast, and pitch it warm.

 

[BoomersBrews]

10.3 lbs Amber LME
2 lbs Carafaom
1.5 lbs Crystal 80
1.5 lbs Chocolate Malt
.5 lbs Carafa III
.5 lbs Roasted Barley
1.5 lbs lactose
1 lb table sugar
2 oz Nugget
1 oz Willamette
6 oz Hersheys Special Dark Powder at 15 min
1 vile of WLP002
1 package of S- 04
(I am also planning to add a Cacao nib tincture to secondary fermentation if I can ever get it there)

I regret doing two different yeast strains and also the amber LME. The guy at my LHBS talked me into both of those ideas and that will be the last time I really listen to him. Like I said, it actually tastes pretty good right now but if I could dry it out just a little more without giving off flavors, that would be ideal. I’m not sure if that’s possible.

 

[blizz81]

For something starting at 1.102, I would think a vial of liquid yeast + a pack of dried yeast would still be moderately underpitching even if there's no competition between the yeasts happening. You would ideally want a pretty big / stepped-up starter for something that hearty. As has been suggested, could try to repitch with a big starter and possibly some sugar to see if it will get going any lower.


Was this a full boil? I ran into problems with unfermentable sugars doing a partial boil on an extract barleywine back when we had started brewing. No amount of repitching seemed to help in that case, trying to remember back six years ago but I thought it had something to do with unfermentable sugars being created when pouring the wort on top of the water. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me now thinking about it, but a possible heads up for further research if you did partial boil.

 

[TheZymurgist]

10.3 lbs Amber LME
2 lbs Carafaom
1.5 lbs Crystal 80
1.5 lbs Chocolate Malt
.5 lbs Carafa III
.5 lbs Roasted Barley
1.5 lbs lactose
1 lb table sugar
2 oz Nugget
1 oz Willamette
6 oz Hersheys Special Dark Powder at 15 min
1 vile of WLP002
1 package of S- 04
(I am also planning to add a Cacao nib tincture to secondary fermentation if I can ever get it there)

I regret doing two different yeast strains and also the amber LME. The guy at my LHBS talked me into both of those ideas and that will be the last time I really listen to him. Like I said, it actually tastes pretty good right now but if I could dry it out just a little more without giving off flavors, that would be ideal. I’m not sure if that’s possible.

Yeah, that definitely wasn't enough yeast. I would try the WLP099. You shouldn't get any off flavors from it, it's fairly clean as long as you give it a chance to clean up diacetyl. I would pitch no less than 2 vials of it, or do an appropriate starter.

 

[BoomersBrews]

It actually was not a full boil. I only did a 3.5 gallon boil and added water during the cool down so you may be right blizz81.

Thanks for the help Zymurgist. I will grab some 099 and try to get a starter going. Will be my first attempt at one though. Am I safe to pitch it directly to primary or should I get it off the old yeast cake first since it has almost been 2 weeks in primary?

 

[TheZymurgist]

It actually was not a full boil. I only did a 3.5 gallon boil and added water during the cool down so you may be right blizz81.

Thanks for the help Zymurgist. I will grab some 099 and try to get a starter going. Will be my first attempt at one though. Am I safe to pitch it directly to primary or should I get it off the old yeast cake first since it has almost been 2 weeks in primary?

Go ahead and pitch it in primary. You may want to decant the starter before pitching it, just so it doesn't have all that extra liquid. If you don't have a stir plate, you're probably going to want to do a gallon starter, and let it go for a week. Add some yeast nutrient as well.

 

[blizz81]

This is what I've been using to get a "better" idea of pitch rates (and how much DME to use), though I'm sure there's a lot of other calculators out there, etc. For stepping, which you may want to do in this case, I usually start with 1/2 gal, let it go for a couple days shaking it as reasonably often as I can, decant the liquid off by way of just a manual mouth-started siphon, then depending on pitch rate, do anywhere from another 1/2 gallon to a full gallon.


http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/


(In this case, I don't think you'd calculate based on the remaining 1.042, as there's alcohol in the environment that the yeast has to put up with...but more for getting an idea of what you should have done originally)


My barleywine fail was what pushed me to get a turkey fryer kit and go full boil. Again, I forget the reasoning behind what I had read and I was really green to the hobby, but something with really big beers and partial boils.

 

[TheZymurgist]

This is what I've been using to get a "better" idea of pitch rates (and how much DME to use), though I'm sure there's a lot of other calculators out there, etc. For stepping, which you may want to do in this case, I usually start with 1/2 gal, let it go for a couple days shaking it as reasonably often as I can, decant the liquid off by way of just a manual mouth-started siphon, then depending on pitch rate, do anywhere from another 1/2 gallon to a full gallon.


http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/


(In this case, I don't think you'd calculate based on the remaining 1.042, as there's alcohol in the environment that the yeast has to put up with...but more for getting an idea of what you should have done originally)


My barleywine fail was what pushed me to get a turkey fryer kit and go full boil. Again, I forget the reasoning behind what I had read and I was really green to the hobby, but something with really big beers and partial boils.

I believe you get more caramelization with partial boils, which leads to less fermentable wort. Which can be significant when you're already doing a big beer with extract.

I also like this calculator:

http://www.homebrewdad.com/yeast_calculator.php

 

[BoomersBrews]

Unfortunately I live in a small apartment work my gf and we don't have room for extensive equipment which is why I don't own a wort chiller. Bc of this, I do partial boils so I can add purified water to assist the cool down time and reach full batch size. This didn't affect me when I did a Great Lakes Chillwave clone (maybe I got lucky bc it was darn close to the actual GL Chillwave in abv, flavor, color, and ibus) but it may definitely be affecting this beer. The other unfortunate is that I just love big beers. I guess I'll need to move into a house so I have more room to store essential equipment!

 

[jahdub]

I think you should rouse the yeast and wait a bit more before you do anything. It has only been 10 days. What temperature is it at now?

 

[BoomersBrews]

I had it at around 60-65 degrees during the first few days but now that fermentation has settled I have allowed it to get up to 69-70 degrees. That's as high as I can get it bc I refuse to turn the heat on in my apartment.

 

[jahdub]

Have you roused it? It is not unreasonable for it to just not be finished after 10 days. This is a strong beer. I'd wait another week or 2 before dropping time / money on more yeast. The only exception is if you absolutely can't wait a week or two.

 

[Twinkeelfool]

That's a lot of lactose, not sure it will get much lower.

 

[TheZymurgist]

Unfortunately I live in a small apartment work my gf and we don't have room for extensive equipment which is why I don't own a wort chiller. Bc of this, I do partial boils so I can add purified water to assist the cool down time and reach full batch size. This didn't affect me when I did a Great Lakes Chillwave clone (maybe I got lucky bc it was darn close to the actual GL Chillwave in abv, flavor, color, and ibus) but it may definitely be affecting this beer. The other unfortunate is that I just love big beers. I guess I'll need to move into a house so I have more room to store essential equipment!

Then you might want to look at doing smaller Brew In a Bag batches. No extra equipment needed, and you'd be able to do full boils and have control over wort fermentability.

 

[BoomersBrews]

So it is now day 17 in primary and after pitching two viles of San Diego super yeast with a half cup of boiled and chilled corn sugar (I didn't come up with means to do a starter yet), my gravity has slowly dropped from 1.042 to 1.039 and seems to be stuck there again. I am assuming that the small drop is just from the extra 1/2 cup of sugar I added along with the yeast. So I am confident that the gravity is done dropping and I should still let the yeast clean up a bit before racking onto a cacao nib tincture in secondary, but now my question is: since I used too many unfermentable sugars, is the yeast done to the point that it will still be safe to add priming sugar to this 1.039 beer, or do I still stand a chance of bottle bombs? If I'm still at risk, I wonder if I can avoid the bombs by adding less priming sugar at bottling. Any advice from someone with experience in this area would be greatly appreciated.

PS: the beer tastes great already and I don't want to lose it!

 

[mblanks2]

From everything I've read here on this forum, a beer this big requires allot of patience. 1.1?? should ride in primary for a minimum of 30 days. I wouldn't even measure gravity until then.
I currently have a 1.110 RIS in primary that has been there 30 days - tomorrow. I have no intention of touching it until next weekend. Primary started at 62*F and after the initial surge in fermentation I ramped a degree per day until I reached 70*F. I have roused the yeast about every 4 or 5 days since and have no idea of what the gravity reading is.
I will check the gravity next weekend and rack onto oak in secondary at that time if my FG has been reached. I'm looking for 1.018 - 1.020.
Let it ride for awhile and check it again later. You can't rush beers of this magnitude.

Cheers!

 

[TheZymurgist]

So it is now day 17 in primary and after pitching two viles of San Diego super yeast with a half cup of boiled and chilled corn sugar (I didn't come up with means to do a starter yet), my gravity has slowly dropped from 1.042 to 1.039 and seems to be stuck there again. I am assuming that the small drop is just from the extra 1/2 cup of sugar I added along with the yeast. So I am confident that the gravity is done dropping and I should still let the yeast clean up a bit before racking onto a cacao nib tincture in secondary, but now my question is: since I used too many unfermentable sugars, is the yeast done to the point that it will still be safe to add priming sugar to this 1.039 beer, or do I still stand a chance of bottle bombs? If I'm still at risk, I wonder if I can avoid the bombs by adding less priming sugar at bottling. Any advice from someone with experience in this area would be greatly appreciated.

PS: the beer tastes great already and I don't want to lose it!

Should have used the WLP099. Starters are easy. Just go buy some DME and a 1 gallon jug from your LHBS, boil the DME in some water to reach 1.040, throw that and the yeast in the jug for a few days.

At this point, though, since you've already pitched more yeast and added sugar, I think you're going to have a tough time.

 

[peterj]

10.3 lbs Amber LME
2 lbs Carafaom
1.5 lbs Crystal 80
1.5 lbs Chocolate Malt
.5 lbs Carafa III
.5 lbs Roasted Barley
1.5 lbs lactose
1 lb table sugar
2 oz Nugget
1 oz Willamette
6 oz Hersheys Special Dark Powder at 15 min
1 vile of WLP002
1 package of S- 04
(I am also planning to add a Cacao nib tincture to secondary fermentation if I can ever get it there)

I regret doing two different yeast strains and also the amber LME. The guy at my LHBS talked me into both of those ideas and that will be the last time I really listen to him. Like I said, it actually tastes pretty good right now but if I could dry it out just a little more without giving off flavors, that would be ideal. I’m not sure if that’s possible.

Wow, that is A LOT of unfermentable sugar!! Frankly I'm surprised that you were able to get it down to 1.042 (I agree the drop to 1.039 is probably from the dilution and corn sugar you added). The 1.5 lbs of lactose alone are adding about 12 points of completely unfermentable sugar. That along with the large proportion of crystal and unfermentables in the Amber extract, plus 3.5 lbs of crystal malt, plus another 2.5 lbs of roasted malt is just an INSANE amount of unfermentables.

I honestly don't think there's any way the gravity is going to drop any lower. I would say you're fine to rack to a secondary and bottle. The only way you're going to get bottle bombs is if you get an infection, in which case I would empty the bottles out very quickly because all of that unfermentable sugar is fermentable for the bugs. You may want to take the advice of letting the beer age though. Big beers in general and especially imperial stouts are much better with a little age on them. Though you can do that in the fermenter or in the bottle.

Next time you brew a big beer like this I would definitely not let the LHBS guy talk you into using Amber extract. With beers this big you really don't need to add a whole lot of unfermentables because the cumulative amount from all of the base malt (or extract) you're using is going to be pretty high to start with. And 2 lbs of carafoam is WAY too much in my opinion! I would probably have used none especially since this was an extract beer, because pretty much all extract already contains a proportion of carapils.

Also, I bottled an RIS a little over a year ago that only sat in the primary for 3 weeks and finished at 1.032 (from 1.099). A year later it's tasting REALLY good and there's no hint of over carbonation.

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

Yes, as others have said, there are too many unfermentables. But you can still make the best of it. I would give it at least 3 more weeks to be sure that anything that will ferment is done. Then bottle at 2.0 volumes (it is a milk stout after all) and see how you do. Carbing at 2.0 should ensure that you don't get bottle bombs.

 

[BoomersBrews]

Should have used the WLP099. Starters are easy. Just go buy some DME and a 1 gallon jug from your LHBS, boil the DME in some water to reach 1.040, throw that and the yeast in the jug for a few days.



At this point, though, since you've already pitched more yeast and added sugar, I think you're going to have a tough time.

I actually put the wrong yeast up when I posted my recipe. I did use WLP099 to start which is probably why it was able to get down as far as it did. I only got the WLP090 bc my LHBS didn't have WLP099.

But anyway, thanks for all the advice from everyone. I will just let it clean up over the next few weeks and then bottle. As an amateur I made a mistake of thinking I could just rely on beersmith to convert everything for me after I created an all grain recipe to start. I thought the 6 pounds and a 63 SRM seemed strange but didn't realize I knew better than beersmith. After playing with the recipe I have now gotten the numbers down to where they belong and will only be using 2.5 lbs of specialty grains with 1 lb of lactose next time. I'm also going to use a starter and yeast nutrient from now on for beers this big. I must have gotten lucky with my Chillwave clone bc that thing was perfect. This was a humbling brew for me to make.

CHEERS!

 

[BoomersBrews]

I actually did use wlp099 to start and I just mistyped when I posted my original recipe. That's probably why it was able to ferment as low as it actually did. And I only used the San Diego super bc the store was out of wlp099.


Thanks for all the advice from everyone. I will just let it clean up over the next few weeks and then bottle. As an amateur I made a mistake of thinking I could just rely on beersmith to convert everything for me after I created an all grain recipe to start. I thought the 6 pounds and a 63 SRM seemed strange but didn't realize I knew better than beersmith. After playing with the recipe I have now gotten the numbers down to where they belong and will only be using 2.5 lbs of specialty grains with 1 lb of lactose next time. I'm also going to use a starter and yeast nutrient from now on for beers this big. I guess I got lucky when I brewed that Chillwave clone bc that thing was perfect. This was definitely a humbling beer to make.


CHEERS!

 

[BoomersBrews]

Sorry for the repost. My phone gives me a hard time with this app.