Imperial Berliner Weisse - Kettle Soured

[drawdy10]

Ok guys, I have done the mash soured Berliner three times with great success, so I figured its time to make this thing Imperial! New Belgium did it twice now with their Imperial Berliner Weisse then their Yuzu both at 8% so I figured just double the grain and let er' buck. So that's what I did. Used my normal process of 55% pils, 45% wheat mashed then cooled to 120F and pitch 10% more unmilled pils. Soured for 54 hours and it was good and sour/funky, boiled for 15mins, cooled and pitched WLp090. OG 1.076, after 36 hours 1.050 (I'm thinking this is gonna work!). 36 more hours later we were at 1.040 and krausen was falling. So I panicked and tossed in a packet of rehydrated champagne yeast and cross my fingers that it works, I'll let you guys know.

Questions:
1. Has anyone ever done this pre-boil souring method for an 1.075+ Berliner?
2. Did I set the yeast up for failure with this high OG 1.076 and really acidic wort (low PH)?
3. Do you think the champagne yeast will help it finish?

 

[dantheman13]

I wish I could give you more feedback! Posting because I am interested in your results!

I am not sure about the WLP090, but I would guess that the champagne yeast will be fine.

 

[Calder]

Once you have soured the wort, I think you need a massive pitch; 2x your usual, or maybe this is a time when you use a whole cake. The low ph is hostile to yeast; I'm not sure how much reproduction you get.

What is an Imperial like? I like BWs because they are light and refreshing.

 

[ne0t0ky0]

I did a imperial wit that I kettle soured, I think a final pH of 3.8 before fermentation. My initial pitch didn't even form a proper krausen. I ended up pitching close to 3x the rate in dry-yeast before a good clean fermentation happened.

You may also consider one of the Brett strains instead since they tolerate lower pH than sacc. Maybe something clean like Brett B. Trois.

 

[Coff]

3711 has worked really well for me in the low ph environment of a pre soured BW, I usually do no boil and add commercial lacto for 48hrs warm then add the Sacch. Actually, Conan has worked really well with this process to.

Not to derail, but I don't really get the Imperial BW thing...But to each his own.

 

[drawdy10]

Well yesterday I was at 1.032 and today maybe 1.030.
PH meter reads 3.82
I think the yeast are pissed off

 

[bovineblitz]

Sounds interesting. My criticism of their Yuzu was that it was way too boozy for the flavors in it. Might be interesting to see how it goes.

I've used S05 nearly every time I sour mash and it works fine.

 

[drawdy10]

Update: gravity is down to 1.012 to 1.014 range and seems to have halted completely. I raised the temp to about 75 to make sure it would finish and it seems to have worked, 8.1% !!


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Siberian]

How did this turn out as far as flavor in the end?

 

[drawdy10]

Honestly it was not great. I wouldn't brew it again. Lower gravity Berliners are much better

 

[Grannyknot]

So what was the final pH?
I've never really felt anything above 3.5 was very sour.

 

[burnsie8791]

I've done three berliners so far, all were sour mashes, the first was lights out the second two were good but not as good (not as sharp or sour). Assuming this is a product of the mystery bugs that happen to be on the uncrushed grains. Thinking of kettle souring the next batch or should I keep tinkering with the sour mash by either adding more uncrushed grains or souring longer? The first batch was soured for 2 days the other longer.

 

[bovineblitz]

I've had the best luck with using a lot of grain in the mash, like three big handfuls. Saran wrap cover, hit with boiling water every ~36h, let it ride till I like the sourness. Typically 3-5 days.

There shouldn't be any difference between sour mash and sour kettle, it's the same thing.

 

[youreanimpulse]

I think he means pitching commercial bugs to sour in the kettle, in which case I recommend it over grain. Brevis or if you can get some Omega lacto blend. Or I use Nancy's yogurt which works great. Much higher success rate without the mystery bugs.

 

[bovineblitz]

I think he means pitching commercial bugs to sour in the kettle, in which case I recommend it over grain. Brevis or if you can get some Omega lacto blend. Or I use Nancy's yogurt which works great. Much higher success rate without the mystery bugs.

Ah, alright. That's not necessarily kettle souring though, it's just souring with cultures. You can do that in any vessel. I guess I don't get why some people think kettle souring = pitching a pure culture or probiotic or something.

In my case, the only sour mash I ever had go bad was fermented with probiotics, L. plantarum. Not sure what happened there, made a starter and I'd always had excellent results with pitching grain.

 

[burninator]

I've done three berliners so far, all were sour mashes, the first was lights out the second two were good but not as good (not as sharp or sour). Assuming this is a product of the mystery bugs that happen to be on the uncrushed grains. Thinking of kettle souring the next batch or should I keep tinkering with the sour mash by either adding more uncrushed grains or souring longer? The first batch was soured for 2 days the other longer.

Have you thought about saving some slurry before boiling your wort? If you have a good souring culture in there already, you might be able to save it and re-pitch into the next batch. Remove some variability from your process.

 

[SanPancho]

check out milkthefunk.com. they've got a good amount of info on lacto fermentations. lot of charts about each strain of lacto and how acidic it gets, all the major yeast/bug vendors and their respective cultures they sell, and even non-bug farm sources like yogurts, probiotic pills, etc.

ive never had good luck with using grain to sour, took too long, or never got very sour, etc. i recently tried a dry lacto+pedio mix from blackmanyeast. it might've been old, because it didnt really do any souring for about 3 days, then i dumped the rest of the packet in and within two days it had finally gotten down to 3.5 and even started to form what looked like tiny pellicle starts from the pedio. i brought up to 180 to pasteurize, and then crashed and pitched a brett+lacto for primary, so hopefully it gets a bit more sour. but it'll be a few weeks before i'll be able to taste it and see the results.

definitely check out the site though, lots of good info on lacto/pedio in addition to bretts and wild yeasts.

 

[Grannyknot]

check out milkthefunk.com. they've got a good amount of info on lacto fermentations. lot of charts about each strain of lacto and how acidic it gets, all the major yeast/bug vendors and their respective cultures they sell, and even non-bug farm sources like yogurts, probiotic pills, etc.

ive never had good luck with using grain to sour, took too long, or never got very sour, etc. i recently tried a dry lacto+pedio mix from blackmanyeast. it might've been old, because it didnt really do any souring for about 3 days, then i dumped the rest of the packet in and within two days it had finally gotten down to 3.5 and even started to form what looked like tiny pellicle starts from the pedio. i brought up to 180 to pasteurize, and then crashed and pitched a brett+lacto for primary, so hopefully it gets a bit more sour. but it'll be a few weeks before i'll be able to taste it and see the results.

definitely check out the site though, lots of good info on lacto/pedio in addition to bretts and wild yeasts.

I didn't really have much luck with the blackman lacto either. Followed his instructions perfectly and couldn't get any lower than 3.8. Isn't really sour at all. Will probably just resume kettle souring from now on. Better results, and I can split my brewday into 2 half days.

 

[burnsie8791]

I was under the impression kettle souring was with commercial lacto in the kettle, perhaps google lied to me. Would not be the first time. Not much slurry when I do the sour mash, just lots of stinky grains, usually boil for 15 after I finish sparging. Just looking for better consistency. Might not be using enough uncrushed grains. Did not change the process at all, just surprised at the inconsistency between the first batch and the following two.

 

[SanPancho]

kettle sour doesnt have to be with a commercial culture of lacto. it just refers to the fact that you sour it on the hot side of your brewery, in your mash tun or kettle, and not on the cold side during fermentation and aging. you can get your lactic bacteria from wherever you want- grains, cultures, yogurt, probiotic pills, etc.

 

[Agate]

If you're looking for better consistency, then your best bet would be to mash and sparge as normal, bring your wort up to pasteurization temperature, cool to your lacto's ideal temp, and pitch the bacteria. Once your desired sourness is reached, either boil or pitch yeast. I've had good luck with lacto cultured from grain, but only in an anaerobic starter for a few days and pitching just the liquid. Too many variables outside your control with sour mashes!