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A lot of you young whippersnappers weren't old enough to vote in 1980. I voted for Reagan.

Glad I did and wouldn't change my vote.

But...had I know that Jimmy Carter was responsible for making homebrewing legal during his presidency??? I might of had a bit harder time making up my mind.

Sometimes ya have to look beyond the headline issues to decide who you like.

Jimmy Carter is my hero.:mug:
 
desiderata said:
It isn't that simple. That will never happen. For as many "terrorists" (i quote it because it is a very vague term) as we capture/kill, there will be just as many who will replace them.

Terrorism is not as black and white as many would have us believe. This battle against terrorism will never end if we continue on the way we are. Here's why. We claim to be fighting to defend our culture/way of life (freedom, democracy), so we are right. They (terrorists) claim to be fighting to defend their way of life (they feel threatened by U.S. foreign policy), so they are right. Hence, neither side will "turn the other cheek", as I'm sure it is written one way or another in both sides' holy books.

The problem is that we were made to believe that it was about terrorism. In retrospect, many who supported the war then, would not do so knowing what we know now.
It is unfair to even compare Saddam with Hitler. Hitler killed 6 million, Saddam killed hundreds. (these figures don't include their enemies killed in WWII and the Gulf War, respectively. But again, Hitler is far worse here.)
Speaking of the need to oust Saddam, we ignored the millions of deaths (and rising) of the genocide in Sudan, in order to invade Iraq. So, yes, you are right about terrorism not being about helping people.
It would certainly have been more appropriate then, but still, I think Bush Sr. was wiser for not.
Yes, Pat is really is unfair to compare the two. Hitler killed over 28 million people. It's only the 6 million Jews we always hear about. Stalin killed over 2 million Soviets...called the Great Purge...in DC it's called changing out your Cabinet.

The complete truth is this country was founded by terrorists (by definition the Boston Tea Party was a terroristic act) and traitors.

All of our founding fathers, plus those who signed the Declaration did so against the "rightful" king of the colonies, were traitors to their country.

The "Texicans" were actually Mexican citizens who swore allegiance to Mexico, that is until 1836. After that they were a country of their own for a while before asking to be annexed to the US.

George Washington was the first president of the US, but few people know that there were 14 "presidents" of the colonies prior to ol' George W.

Most Americans are (wrongfully) taught and believe that we "achieved" independence from GB in 1776. That's not true. We didn't get independence until the Treaty of Paris was signed in 1783. :D

This leads to one of my peeves. We say things like the Army is XXX years old, but in truth all dates for the US foundation is really Jan 14, 1784, not 4 July 1776 as we've been taught.

See: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Paris_(1783). :D
 
Saddam killed over 1,500 people in one year for political reasons, I want to know were you figures he only killed a few hundred!! Saddam is up their with Hitler and just as evil as a man. Granted their are others out their!! I disagree, Iraq is about terrorism. I have a friend that is in a special unit in the USMC, they went from house to house in major Iraq cites, they found plenty of people with major ties to al qaeda. Saddam was given many chances to make things right, HE chose not to step down.

George%20Bush%20flys.gif
 
Ryanh1801 said:
Saddam killed over 1,500 people in one year for political reasons, I want to know were you figures he only killed a few hundred!! Saddam is up their with Hitler and just as evil as a man. Granted their are others out their!! I disagree, Iraq is about terrorism. I have a friend that is in a special unit in the USMC, they went from house to house in major Iraq cites, they found plenty of people with major ties to al qaeda. Saddam was given many chances to make things right, HE chose not to step down.

George%20Bush%20flys.gif
You don't have your history right. Why should he have stepped down?

It wasn't the UN (the UN resolution DID NOT authorize the use of force) or the World Court who requested he should...it was GW.

Way back in '99, even earlier I am certain, that Clinton "decided" that we, the US, would not be a member of the World Court. As for Kosovo (I went in 3 days after the bombings stopped), Melosovic's Serbians were killing Albanians for 10 years before we went in...why? It was to cover up the worlds most famous and eventually the most expensive BJ in history.

The main reason is because the actions of the leaders of this country would come under war crimes. Bush invaded several countries that had not actively engaged in a threat of war...oh, that's right...it was pre-emptive...BS!!! It was just an excuse to spend taxpayers money and to pay back the big businesses that put him into the presidency. Think about it...other than military salary, how much of the 300 BILLION went overseas? The majority of the $$$ stayed right here in good old big businesses just as GW promised.

Yes, it is that simple. If it weren't then why is it almost "policy" the every newly "elected" president "pardons" the preceeding president and gets paid (bribery?) to pardon other people we consider crimials outright?

It's OK if you don't believe me. As a matter of fact, I prefer that you don't believe me. However, I ask you to remember this "conversation" and list all the people Bush pardons before leaving office (He doesn't have the "power" to pardon himself, unless he is a dictator) and that Bush is pardoned by the next president...then tell me if I'm crazy. ;)

PS. If I get banned before this event my email is, as always: [email protected] :D
 
Reverend JC said:
I am not saying GWB is perfect or any of the R candidates coming up are, but i have heard that Clinton and Obama have said they wanted to get rid of GWBs tax cuts to people that end in 2010. That would mean extra money out of my pocket, and truthfully, that is all i care about, my pocket. I am socially liberal and fiscally conservative, i guess that makes me a moderate, but if it is between social liberties that really dont affect me or my pocket book, i vote my pocket book every time.

See my above post. Seefresh, I now see your view is very mild compared to this.:)

Reverend JC, I think you are misled about the tax cuts. You are my age (late 20s/early 30s), so you have nothing to worry about regarding this issue. What you need to know is that these are the Sunset Provision of the Estate Tax (aka Death Tax) that expire in 2010 if congress doesn't extend them. As it stands now, there is a tax on one's estate after death (gasp!). What most people don't realize is that only a very small percentage of the population even get hit with this tax. The first $2 million ($4 million for married couples) of assets can be passed on to heirs tax free. In addition, there are many tax strategies to utilize prior to one's death to exclude even more assets from taxation (i.e. gifting, irrevocable trusts, etc.)

We have a progressive tax system. This means that your first dollars of income (currently up to $7,825) are taxed at only 10%. The amount you earn above $7,825 up to $31,850 is taxed at only 15%. And so on up to a max rate of 35% of amounts over $349,700. This goes for everyone!
So, for example, if Seefresh had an annual salary of $161,000, his marginal tax bracket would be 33%, but he would actually pay less than 25% of his income in taxes ($39,200). For simplicity's sake, this doesn't include any other income, taxes, or the exemptions and credits available.

Okay, wake up! :cross: Sorry for the boring details, but I just think that the average voter doesn't even understand how the issue affects him/her.

I know I'll be flamed for this (I know there are a lot of libertarians out there :)): taxes are necessary. Of course we don't want to pay them, but try to appreciate the good things that they pay for (i.e. schools, arts, sports, law enforcement, fire dept., roads, to name a few). It's not fair to try to eliminate them. It is fair to keep them reasonable.
 
homebrewer_99 said:
Let's talk Anthrax...I had to find a new job because I was one of the 6 Gov employees who refused the shots and sued the Gov over its legality. It has NEVER been tested against inhalation anthrax on humans. We won our case for a couple of years. Now the shots are mandatory again.

Good for you, Bill. I then owe you a big "thanks"! Luckily, I got out before I had to get that series. I was worried, though, when I read that they mandated them again. I debated whether or not I would accept it. I don't know if I would have let them give it to me or not. It sucks that the military can enforce such a scam.
 
homebrewer_99 said:
You don't have your history right. Why should he have stepped down?

It wasn't the UN (the UN resolution DID NOT authorize the use of force) or the World Court who requested he should...it was GW.

Way back in '99, even earlier I am certain, that Clinton "decided" that we, the US, would not be a member of the World Court. As for Kosovo (I went in 3 days after the bombings stopped), Melosovic's Serbians were killing Albanians for 10 years before we went in...why? It was to cover up the worlds most famous and eventually the most expensive BJ in history.

The main reason is because the actions of the leaders of this country would come under war crimes. Bush invaded several countries that had not actively engaged in a threat of war...oh, that's right...it was pre-emptive...BS!!! It was just an excuse to spend taxpayers money and to pay back the big businesses that put him into the presidency. Think about it...other than military salary, how much of the 300 BILLION went overseas? The majority of the $$$ stayed right here in good old big businesses just as GW promised.

Yes, it is that simple. If it weren't then why is it almost "policy" the every newly "elected" president "pardons" the preceeding president and gets paid (bribery?) to pardon other people we consider crimials outright?

It's OK if you don't believe me. As a matter of fact, I prefer that you don't believe me. However, I ask you to remember this "conversation" and list all the people Bush pardons before leaving office (He doesn't have the "power" to pardon himself, unless he is a dictator) and that Bush is pardoned by the next president...then tell me if I'm crazy. ;)

PS. If I get banned before this event my email is, as always: [email protected] :D

Please explain to me what part of my history I don't have right? So you are telling me you think Saddam should have stayed in power? Its a fact of doing what is right.Thats what I like about Bush he does what it right, not what is going to make him look good. "Your damned if you do your damned if you don't" .
 
desiderata said:
See my above post. Seefresh, I now see your view is very mild compared to this.

Reverend JC, I think you are misled about the tax cuts. You are my age (late 20s/early 30s), so you have nothing to worry about regarding this issue. What you need to know is that these are the Sunset Provision of the Estate Tax (aka Death Tax) that expire in 2010 if congress doesn't extend them. As it stands now, there is a tax on one's estate after death (gasp!). What most people don't realize is that only a very small percentage of the population even get hit with this tax. The first $2 million ($4 million for married couples) of assets can be passed on to heirs tax free. In addition, there are many tax strategies to utilize prior to one's death to exclude even more assets from taxation (i.e. gifting, irrevocable trusts, etc.)

We have a progressive tax system. This means that your first dollars of income (currently up to $7,825) are taxed at only 10%. The amount you earn above $7,825 up to $31,850 is taxed at only 15%. And so on up to a max rate of 35% of amounts over $349,700. This goes for everyone!
So, for example, if Seefresh had an annual salary of $161,000, his marginal tax bracket would be 33%, but he would actually pay less than 25% of his income in taxes ($39,200). For simplicity's sake, this doesn't include any other income, taxes, or the exemptions and credits available.

Okay, wake up! Sorry for the boring details, but I just think that the average voter doesn't even understand how the issue affects him/her.

I know I'll be flamed for this (I know there are a lot of libertarians out there ): taxes are necessary. Of course we don't want to pay them, but try to appreciate the good things that they pay for (i.e. schools, arts, sports, law enforcement, fire dept., roads, to name a few). It's not fair to try to eliminate them. It is fair to keep them reasonable.
The federal tax is not necessary. This country could be run on state taxes alone. The rest is wasted and given away.

Lincoln used the Fed tax to pay for the war. It was supposed to be recinded when the war was over. Up to then this country did not have a Fed tax and we had a surplus budget.

The reason we can't do that now is because DC stands for Domination by Criminals. :D

The Mafia charge large interest rates for borrowing money. The Gov't thought that was wrong, ajiled a lot of people, then instituted the same rules and called it "banking". :D
 
Ryanh1801 said:
Please explain to me what part of my history I don't have right? So you are telling me you think Saddam should have stayed in power? Its a fact of doing what is right.Thats what I like about Bush he does what it right, not what is going to make him look good. "Your damned if you do your damned if you don't" .

No, nobody is debating with you that Saddam was bad. Where I disagree with you is that I don't think Saddam was a priority. After all, as homebrewer pointed out, the U.S. considered Saddam a friend and ally! There are/were many dictators who shouldn't hold power in countries around the world. That, alone, doesn't give us the right, alone, to decide to take them out.
 
Didn't you just say Saddam killed 1,500 people in a year? Let's assume that is right...

So how many people do you think died the first year of this war? The following year? The year third year? Now the FOURTH?

No offense, but I'm not too sure on how that is a comparison. If we were...let's say #2 power of the world, the #1 would undoubtedly charge our president under the same charges we claimed to have brought on Saddam.

I just don't quite see how I am safer because of this war. I've lost a best friend, and a close acquittance. I also have two friends that just got back, one injured, one mentally unstable. How am I safer? How are killing off 3,000 of our soldiers making us safer?

It sure is a good thing that this war didn't cause more people to become anti-American and join terrorist networks. Oh wait....****!
 
homebrewer_99 said:
The federal tax is not necessary. This country could be run on state taxes alone. The rest is wasted and given away.
Sure, but then you will have states bickering more and more over money and resources. Maybe it can be done, I'm not sure. I just think it won't be as easy as it sounds.

I think that taxes are such an big issue these days because of all the waste, as you say. But, IMO, too much is being wasted on "guns" and less on "butter". The citizens would be much happier with their quality of life if much of the billions of defense spending would go to other things.

Klainmeister said:
...and frankly it cost too much, 1% of the cost of this war could have paid for all of the students in the US to go to college and also free health care for everyone. 1%. Where are our priorities?

That sums it up. It's sad, but only until the avg. American feels the effects of the war, will decide we've had enough. Only about 1% of the population in our country are in the military, and our deficit is growing, so the effects of the war, (both in blood, and esp. economically) are being sheltered from us.
 
Refusal to Admit Human Rights Monitors

* The UN Commission on Human Rights and the UN General Assembly issued a report that noted "with dismay" the lack of improvement in the situation of human rights in Iraq. The report strongly criticized the "systematic, widespread, and extremely grave violations of human rights" and of international humanitarian law by the Iraqi Government, which it stated resulted in "all-pervasive repression and oppression sustained by broad-based discrimination and widespread terror." The report called on the Iraqi Government to fulfill its obligations under international human rights treaties.

* Saddam Hussein has repeatedly refused visits by human rights monitors and the establishment of independent human rights organizations. From 1992 until 2002, Saddam prevented the UN Special Rapporteur from visiting Iraq.

* In September 2001 the Government expelled six UN humanitarian relief workers without providing any explanation.

Violence Against Women

* Human rights organizations and opposition groups continued to receive reports of women who suffered from severe psychological trauma after being raped by Iraqi personnel while in custody.

* Former Mukhabarat member Khalid Al-Janabi reported that a Mukhabarat unit, the Technical Operations Directorate, used rape and sexual assault in a systematic and institutionalized manner for political purposes. The unit reportedly also videotaped the rape of female relatives of suspected oppositionists and used the videotapes for blackmail purposes and to ensure their future cooperation.

* In June 2000, a former Iraqi general reportedly received a videotape of security forces raping a female family member. He subsequently received a telephone call from an intelligence agent who stated that another female relative was being held and warned him to stop speaking out against the Iraqi Government.

* Iraqi security forces allegedly raped women who were captured during the Anfal Campaign and during the occupation of Kuwait.

* Amnesty International reported that, in October 2000, the Iraqi Government executed dozens of women accused of prostitution.

* In May, the Iraqi Government reportedly tortured to death the mother of three Iraqi defectors for her children's opposition activities.

* Iraqi security agents reportedly decapitated numerous women and men in front of their family members. According to Amnesty International, the victims' heads were displayed in front of their homes for several days.

Torture

* Iraqi security services routinely and systematically torture detainees. According to former prisoners, torture techniques included branding, electric shocks administered to the genitals and other areas, beating, pulling out of fingernails, burning with hot irons and blowtorches, suspension from rotating ceiling fans, dripping acid on the skin, rape, breaking of limbs, denial of food and water, extended solitary confinement in dark and extremely small compartments, and threats to rape or otherwise harm family members and relatives. Evidence of such torture often was apparent when security forces returned the mutilated bodies of torture victims to their families.

* According to a report received by the UN Special Rapporteur in 1998, hundreds of Kurds and other detainees have been held without charge for close to two decades in extremely harsh conditions, and many of them have been used as subjects in Iraq's illegal experimental chemical and biological weapons programs.

* In 2000, the authorities reportedly introduced tongue amputation as a punishment for persons who criticize Saddam Hussein or his family, and on July 17, government authorities reportedly amputated the tongue of a person who allegedly criticized Saddam Hussein. Authorities reportedly performed the amputation in front of a large crowd. Similar tongue amputations also reportedly occurred.

* Refugees fleeing to Europe often reported instances of torture to receiving governments, and displayed scars and mutilations to substantiate their claims.

* In August 2001 Amnesty International released a report entitled Iraq -- Systematic Torture of Political Prisoners, which detailed the systematic and routine use of torture against suspected political opponents and, occasionally, other prisoners. Amnesty International also reports "Detainees have also been threatened with bringing in a female relative, especially the wife or the mother, and raping her in front of the detainee. Some of these threats have been carried out."

* Saad Keis Naoman, an Iraqi soccer player who defected to Europe, reported that he and his teammates were beaten and humiliated at the order of Uday Saddam Hussein for poor performances. He was flogged until his back was bloody, forcing him to sleep on his stomach in the tiny cell in Al-Radwaniya prison.

Executions and Repression of Political Opposition

* Former UN Human Rights Special Rapporteur Max Van der Stoel's report in April 1998 stated that Iraq had executed at least 1,500 people during the previous year for political reasons.

* The government continues to execute summarily alleged political opponents and leaders in the Shi'a religious community. Reports suggest that persons were executed merely because of their association with an opposition group or as part of a continuing effort to reduce prison populations.

* In February 2001, the Government reportedly executed 37 political detainees for opposition activity.

* In June 2001, security forces killed a Shi'a cleric, Hussein Bahar al-Uloom, for refusing to appear on television to congratulate Qusay Saddam Hussein for his election to a Ba'th Party position. Such killings continue an apparent government policy of eliminating prominent Shi'a clerics who are suspected of disloyalty to the government. In 1998 and 1999, the Government killed a number of leading Shi'a clerics, prompting the former Special Rapporteur in 1999 to express his concern to the government that the killings might be part of a systematic attack by government officials on the independent leadership of the Shi'a Muslim community. The government did not respond to the Special Rapporteur's letter.

* There are persistent reports that families are made to pay for the cost of executions.

* Saddam Hussein destroyed the southern Iraqi town of Albu 'Aysh sometime between September 1998 and December 1999.

* Iraq has conducted a systematic "Arabization" campaign of ethnic cleansing designed to harass and expel ethnic Kurds and Turkmen from government-controlled areas. Non-Arab citizens are forced to change their ethnicity or their identity documents and adopt Arab names, or they are deprived of their homes, property and food-ration cards, and expelled.
 
Saddam Hussein's Abuse of Children

* Saddam Hussein has held 3-week training courses in weapons use, hand-to-hand fighting, rappelling from helicopters, and infantry tactics for children between 10 and 15 years of age. Camps for these "Saddam Cubs" operated throughout the country. Senior military officers who supervised the courses noted that the children held up under the "physical and psychological strain" of training that lasted for as long as 14 hours each day. Sources in the opposition report that the army found it difficult to recruit enough children to fill all of the vacancies in the program. Families reportedly were threatened with the loss of their food ration cards if they refused to enroll their children in the course. The Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq reported in October 1999 that authorities were denying food ration cards to families that failed to send their young sons to Saddam Cubs compulsory weapons-training camps. Similarly, authorities reportedly withheld school examination results to students unless they registered in the Fedayeen Saddam organization.

* Iraq often announces food ration cuts for the general population, blaming US or UK actions. Among the most controversial have been cuts in baby milk rations. Iraq has blamed the shortages on US and UK contract rejections, although the UN has approved all baby milk contracts submitted.

* Child labor persists and there are instances of forced labor.

* There are widespread reports that food and medicine that could have been made available to the general public, including children, have been stockpiled in warehouses or diverted for the personal use of some government officials.

Disappearances

* Amnesty International reported that Iraq has the world's worst record for numbers of persons who have disappeared or remain unaccounted for.

* In 1999, the UN Special Rapporteur stated that Iraq remains the country with the highest number of disappearances known to the UN: over 16,000.

Basic Freedoms: Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press, Freedom of Information

* In practice, Saddam Hussein does not permit freedom of speech or of the press, and does not tolerate political dissent in areas under its control. In November 2000, the UN General Assembly criticized Saddam Hussein's "suppression of freedom of thought, expression, information, association, and assembly." The Special Rapporteur stated in October 1999 that citizens lived "in a climate of fear," in which whatever they said or did, particularly in the area of politics, involved "the risk of arrest and interrogation by the police or military intelligence." He noted that "the mere suggestion that someone is not a supporter of the President carries the prospect of the death penalty."

* In June 2001, the Human Rights Alliance reported that Saddam Hussein had killed more than 500 journalists and other intellectuals in the past decade.

* Saddam Hussein frequently infringes on citizens' constitutional right to privacy. Saddam routinely ignores constitutional provisions designed to protect the confidentiality of mail, telegraphic correspondence, and telephone conversations. Iraq periodically jams news broadcasts from outside the country, including those of opposition groups. The security services and the Ba'th Party maintain pervasive networks of informers to deter dissident activity and instill fear in the public.

* Foreign journalists must work from offices located within the Iraqi ministry building and are accompanied everywhere they go by ministry officers, who reportedly restrict their movements and make it impossible for them to interact freely with citizens.

* The Iraqi Government, the Ba'th Party, or persons close to Saddam Hussein own all print and broadcast media, and operate them as propaganda outlets. They generally do not report opposing points of view that are expressed either domestically or abroad.

* In September 1999, Hashem Hasan, a journalist and Baghdad University professor, was arrested after declining an appointment as editor of one of Uday Hussein's publications. The Paris-based Reporters Sans Frontieres (RSF) sent a letter of appeal to Uday Hussein; however, Hassan's fate and whereabouts remained unknown at year's end.

* Saddam Hussein regularly jams foreign news broadcasts. Satellite dishes, modems, and fax machines are banned, although some restrictions reportedly were lifted in 1999.

* In government-operated Internet cafes, users only are permitted to view web sites provided by the Ministry of Culture and Information.

* In 1999, Uday Hussein reportedly dismissed hundreds of members of the Iraqi Union of Journalists for not praising Saddam Hussein and the Government sufficiently.

Withholding of Food

* Relatives who do not report deserters may lose their ration cards for purchasing government-controlled food supplies, be evicted from their residences, or face the arrest of other family members. The Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq reported in October and December 1999 that authorities denied food ration cards to families that failed to send their young sons to the "Saddam's Cubs" compulsory weapons training camps.

Crimes Against Muslims

* The Government consistently politicizes and interferes with religious pilgrimages, both of Iraqi Muslims who wish to make the Hajj to Mecca and Medina and of Iraqi and non-Iraqi Muslim pilgrims who travel to holy sites within the country. For example, in 1998 the UN Sanctions Committee offered to disburse vouchers for travel and expenses to pilgrims making the Hajj; however, the Government rejected this offer. In 1999 the Sanctions Committee offered to disburse funds to cover Hajj-related expenses via a neutral third party; the Government again rejected the offer. Following the December 1999 passage of UN Security Council Resolution 1284, the Sanctions Committee again sought to devise a protocol to facilitate the payment for individuals making the journey. The Sanctions Committee proposed to issue $250 in cash and $1,750 in travelers checks to each individual pilgrim to be distributed at the U.N. office in Baghdad in the presence of both U.N. and Iraqi officials. The Government again declined and, consequently, no Iraqi pilgrims were able to take advantage of the available funds or, in 2000, of the permitted flights. The Government continued to insist that these funds would be accepted only if they were paid in cash to the government-controlled central bank, not to the Hajj pilgrims.

More than 95 percent of the population of Iraq are Muslim. The (predominantly Arab) Shi'a Muslims constitute a 60 to 65 percent majority:

* The Iraqi government has for decades conducted a brutal campaign of murder, summary execution, and protracted arbitrary arrest against the religious leaders and followers of the majority Shi'a Muslim population. Despite nominal legal protection of religious equality, the Government has repressed severely the Shi'a clergy and those who follow the Shi'a faith.

* Forces from the Mukhabarat, General Security (Amn Al-Amm), the Military Bureau, Saddam's Commandos (Fedayeen Saddam), and the Ba'th Party have killed senior Shi'a clerics, desecrated Shi'a mosques and holy sites, and interfered with Shi'a religious education. Security agents reportedly are stationed at all the major Shi'a mosques and shrines, where they search, harass, and arbitrarily arrest worshipers.

* The following government restrictions on religious rights remained in effect during 2001: restrictions and outright bans on communal Friday prayer by Shi'a Muslims; restrictions on the loaning of books by Shi'a mosque libraries; a ban on the broadcast of Shi'a programs on government-controlled radio or television; a ban on the publication of Shi'a books, including prayer books and guides; a ban on funeral processions other than those organized by the Government; a ban on other Shi'a funeral observances such as gatherings for Koran reading; and the prohibition of certain processions and public meetings that commemorate Shi'a holy days. Shi'a groups report that they captured documents from the security services during the 1991 uprising that listed thousands of forbidden Shi'a religious writings.

* In June 1999, several Shi'a opposition groups reported that the Government instituted a program in the predominantly Shi'a districts of Baghdad that used food ration cards to restrict where individuals could pray. The ration cards, part of the UN oil-for-food program, reportedly are checked when the bearer enters a mosque and are printed with a notice of severe penalties for those who attempt to pray at an unauthorized location.
 
Klainmeister said:
Didn't you just say Saddam killed 1,500 people in a year? Let's assume that is right...

So how many people do you think died the first year of this war? The following year? The year third year? Now the FOURTH?

No offense, but I'm not too sure on how that is a comparison. If we were...let's say #2 power of the world, the #1 would undoubtedly charge our president under the same charges we claimed to have brought on Saddam.

I just don't quite see how I am safer because of this war. I've lost a best friend, and a close acquittance. I also have two friends that just got back, one injured, one mentally unstable. How am I safer? How are killing off 3,000 of our soldiers making us safer?

It sure is a good thing that this war didn't cause more people to become anti-American and join terrorist networks. Oh wait....****!
Let me ask you this: How many innocent Iraqi civilians has the US killed in the past 5 years?

The truth is you will never know because the media will never be allowed to tell you.:mad:
 
homebrewer_99 said:
Let me ask you this: How many innocent Iraqi civilians has the US killed in the past 5 years?

The truth is you will never know because the media will never be allowed to tell you.:mad:

Wow, After reading this statement alone, I am done with this thread!!!:mad: :mad: :mad:
 
I get no reply to my questions? If i get straight answers that are right on then i might have to change my voter registration.
 
Ryanh1801 said:
Saddam Hussein's Abuse of Children

* Saddam Hussein has held 3-week training courses in weapons use, hand-to-hand fighting, rappelling from helicopters, and infantry tactics for children between 10 and 15 years of age. Camps for these "Saddam Cubs" operated throughout the country. Senior military officers who supervised the courses noted that the children held up under the "physical and psychological strain" of training that lasted for as long as 14 hours each day. Sources in the opposition report that the army found it difficult to recruit enough children to fill all of the vacancies in the program. Families reportedly were threatened with the loss of their food ration cards if they refused to enroll their children in the course. The Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq reported in October 1999 that authorities were denying food ration cards to families that failed to send their young sons to Saddam Cubs compulsory weapons-training camps. Similarly, authorities reportedly withheld school examination results to students unless they registered in the Fedayeen Saddam organization.

* Iraq often announces food ration cuts for the general population, blaming US or UK actions. Among the most controversial have been cuts in baby milk rations. Iraq has blamed the shortages on US and UK contract rejections, although the UN has approved all baby milk contracts submitted.

* Child labor persists and there are instances of forced labor.

* There are widespread reports that food and medicine that could have been made available to the general public, including children, have been stockpiled in warehouses or diverted for the personal use of some government officials.

Disappearances

* Amnesty International reported that Iraq has the world's worst record for numbers of persons who have disappeared or remain unaccounted for.

* In 1999, the UN Special Rapporteur stated that Iraq remains the country with the highest number of disappearances known to the UN: over 16,000.

Basic Freedoms: Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press, Freedom of Information

* In practice, Saddam Hussein does not permit freedom of speech or of the press, and does not tolerate political dissent in areas under its control. In November 2000, the UN General Assembly criticized Saddam Hussein's "suppression of freedom of thought, expression, information, association, and assembly." The Special Rapporteur stated in October 1999 that citizens lived "in a climate of fear," in which whatever they said or did, particularly in the area of politics, involved "the risk of arrest and interrogation by the police or military intelligence." He noted that "the mere suggestion that someone is not a supporter of the President carries the prospect of the death penalty."

* In June 2001, the Human Rights Alliance reported that Saddam Hussein had killed more than 500 journalists and other intellectuals in the past decade.

* Saddam Hussein frequently infringes on citizens' constitutional right to privacy. Saddam routinely ignores constitutional provisions designed to protect the confidentiality of mail, telegraphic correspondence, and telephone conversations. Iraq periodically jams news broadcasts from outside the country, including those of opposition groups. The security services and the Ba'th Party maintain pervasive networks of informers to deter dissident activity and instill fear in the public.

* Foreign journalists must work from offices located within the Iraqi ministry building and are accompanied everywhere they go by ministry officers, who reportedly restrict their movements and make it impossible for them to interact freely with citizens.

* The Iraqi Government, the Ba'th Party, or persons close to Saddam Hussein own all print and broadcast media, and operate them as propaganda outlets. They generally do not report opposing points of view that are expressed either domestically or abroad.

* In September 1999, Hashem Hasan, a journalist and Baghdad University professor, was arrested after declining an appointment as editor of one of Uday Hussein's publications. The Paris-based Reporters Sans Frontieres (RSF) sent a letter of appeal to Uday Hussein; however, Hassan's fate and whereabouts remained unknown at year's end.

* Saddam Hussein regularly jams foreign news broadcasts. Satellite dishes, modems, and fax machines are banned, although some restrictions reportedly were lifted in 1999.

* In government-operated Internet cafes, users only are permitted to view web sites provided by the Ministry of Culture and Information.

* In 1999, Uday Hussein reportedly dismissed hundreds of members of the Iraqi Union of Journalists for not praising Saddam Hussein and the Government sufficiently.

Withholding of Food

* Relatives who do not report deserters may lose their ration cards for purchasing government-controlled food supplies, be evicted from their residences, or face the arrest of other family members. The Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq reported in October and December 1999 that authorities denied food ration cards to families that failed to send their young sons to the "Saddam's Cubs" compulsory weapons training camps.

Crimes Against Muslims

* The Government consistently politicizes and interferes with religious pilgrimages, both of Iraqi Muslims who wish to make the Hajj to Mecca and Medina and of Iraqi and non-Iraqi Muslim pilgrims who travel to holy sites within the country. For example, in 1998 the UN Sanctions Committee offered to disburse vouchers for travel and expenses to pilgrims making the Hajj; however, the Government rejected this offer. In 1999 the Sanctions Committee offered to disburse funds to cover Hajj-related expenses via a neutral third party; the Government again rejected the offer. Following the December 1999 passage of UN Security Council Resolution 1284, the Sanctions Committee again sought to devise a protocol to facilitate the payment for individuals making the journey. The Sanctions Committee proposed to issue $250 in cash and $1,750 in travelers checks to each individual pilgrim to be distributed at the U.N. office in Baghdad in the presence of both U.N. and Iraqi officials. The Government again declined and, consequently, no Iraqi pilgrims were able to take advantage of the available funds or, in 2000, of the permitted flights. The Government continued to insist that these funds would be accepted only if they were paid in cash to the government-controlled central bank, not to the Hajj pilgrims.

More than 95 percent of the population of Iraq are Muslim. The (predominantly Arab) Shi'a Muslims constitute a 60 to 65 percent majority:

* The Iraqi government has for decades conducted a brutal campaign of murder, summary execution, and protracted arbitrary arrest against the religious leaders and followers of the majority Shi'a Muslim population. Despite nominal legal protection of religious equality, the Government has repressed severely the Shi'a clergy and those who follow the Shi'a faith.

* Forces from the Mukhabarat, General Security (Amn Al-Amm), the Military Bureau, Saddam's Commandos (Fedayeen Saddam), and the Ba'th Party have killed senior Shi'a clerics, desecrated Shi'a mosques and holy sites, and interfered with Shi'a religious education. Security agents reportedly are stationed at all the major Shi'a mosques and shrines, where they search, harass, and arbitrarily arrest worshipers.

* The following government restrictions on religious rights remained in effect during 2001: restrictions and outright bans on communal Friday prayer by Shi'a Muslims; restrictions on the loaning of books by Shi'a mosque libraries; a ban on the broadcast of Shi'a programs on government-controlled radio or television; a ban on the publication of Shi'a books, including prayer books and guides; a ban on funeral processions other than those organized by the Government; a ban on other Shi'a funeral observances such as gatherings for Koran reading; and the prohibition of certain processions and public meetings that commemorate Shi'a holy days. Shi'a groups report that they captured documents from the security services during the 1991 uprising that listed thousands of forbidden Shi'a religious writings.

* In June 1999, several Shi'a opposition groups reported that the Government instituted a program in the predominantly Shi'a districts of Baghdad that used food ration cards to restrict where individuals could pray. The ration cards, part of the UN oil-for-food program, reportedly are checked when the bearer enters a mosque and are printed with a notice of severe penalties for those who attempt to pray at an unauthorized location.
That was an interesting read. Ever substitute SH for Bush and come up with a similar storyline? They track fairly well with what GW is doing in some ways.

Did you get this info from Iraqi's or from the American media?

Chances are the American media...I doubt you have Iraqi TV.

Mark Twain...or was it Will Rogers once said: "If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed. If you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."

Do you remember when you were in school and learned about the Lewis and Clark Expedition? Ever heard the part where they were given 20 plus dogs from a tribe to be used for food? Didn't think so...:D

The point is don't believe everything you hear or read about...do more research from more sources. If you don't you only have one point of view repeated several times.


No baa's...
 
Ryanh1801 said:
...(y)ou want to go and tell my friends that are over there right now as I type fighting that they are fighting unprepared/ with out a plan. I bet they would beg to differ. Wars take time, and we will win in Iraq. No one ever said it was going to be easy.
<Trying to stay civil.

The fact is, there are those in the military who are for and those against the war. From my experience, there seem to be far more in the military who are supportive, or either apathetic (blows my mind, really). But, I think there are reasons for this.
One, it is natural for most of us to find meaning/justification in what we do. We don't want to believe that our job is in inane, no matter what occupation we have. Besides, the military constantly reminds the soldiers with pep talks of how important their jobs are. The military would have a hard time being viable otherwise.
Second, the military is prohibited from publicly voicing an opinion contrary to the mission or that of the commander-in-chief. Even doing so among peers will get you ridiculed and silenced.
Third, mainly applying to senior enlisted and commanding officers, you don't often disagree with your superiors. Like the little engine that could, there is a "can do" attitude among commanders in the military, regardless of reality. "Make it happen" is a phrase heard a lot.
Therefore, it would appear that the military, as a whole, supports whatever mission they are given.
 
I was talking about my post higher up on this page. There are just some questions i have yet to get answered, and until then, i refuse to believe the status-quo about this war. just doesn't seem necessary, none of it.
 
Ryanh1801 said:
IMO take the media out of the picture, let the Generals have full control and Iraq would be secure in no time.

Well, they had control and lost it at Abu Ghraib.

Even if the media didn't bring to light that fiasco, it would've been revealed.

What kind of "freedom" and "democracy" would we have with no oversight? You must put a lot of faith in people who don't deserve it.

Okay, I'm gonna make some homebrew-related threads for a while, so the mods don't think I'm "trolling"?--is that the word?
 
Klainmeister said:
Didn't you just say Saddam killed 1,500 people in a year? Let's assume that is right...

So how many people do you think died the first year of this war? The following year? The year third year? Now the FOURTH?

No offense, but I'm not too sure on how that is a comparison. If we were...let's say #2 power of the world, the #1 would undoubtedly charge our president under the same charges we claimed to have brought on Saddam.

I just don't quite see how I am safer because of this war. I've lost a best friend, and a close acquittance. I also have two friends that just got back, one injured, one mentally unstable. How am I safer? How are killing off 3,000 of our soldiers making us safer?

It sure is a good thing that this war didn't cause more people to become anti-American and join terrorist networks. Oh wait....****!

Ok just because you asked, although i dont expect you to change your mind.

1. Yes that is right, do some research
2. How many have died? your a big boy you can look that up. Ill say this. its a hell of a lot less than any other war. Im not trying to sound un- compassionate, but thats the facts. As Dalton Trumbo said "War is hell"
3. This statement is just ridicules!!!!!
4. As i have said before Iraq was a haven for al qaeda. Think back to who attacked us on our turf. I have tons of good friends over their too, some in Afghanistan. One of my good friends took an Ak round in the fibia while on the top gun of a H1. He came with in min. of losing his life. He went to months of rehab and multiple surgerys. One of my good friends was completely against the war, then he came back and was the opposite after seeing what some of those people went through.
5. The majority of the Iraq people want us over there, pure and simple. If it was the other way around things would be alot worse.
I get my news from people that have been over there for months at a time.

What pisses me off is the media only covers the bad. They never cover the good things that happen over there daily.

I refuse to respond to homebrewer99's disturbing comments.
 
Yuri_Rage said:
You guys are doing a good job of proving why we avoid political discussions here.

Actually, surprisingly, it's still fairly civil.

I know McCain says it was a joke, but is [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-zoPgv_nYg"]this [/ame]something to joke about?
 
desiderata said:
Actually, surprisingly, it's still fairly civil.

I know McCain says it was a joke, but is this something to joke about?

Even though im not a big fan of McCain, I thought it was pretty funny. Even more so his comments to the media.
 
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