Ice cider concentration time to thaw

[Krypton]

Anyone has done ice cider? Any insight on how long it takes to thaw the cider? I Just put 5 gals to thaw at 50F and was wondering if I can leave for the day (9hours tops) and be fine with a 1gal bucket to get the concentrate.

Thanks!

 

[Krypton]

Oh well, I had to leave for work and 1/4 of the gallon had thawed. I put everything back outside to freeze, will do this when I'm home, it seems to melt quite quickly. Thanks for reading and thinking on it though!

 

[bmd2k1]

Very cool.....what effect is icing supposed to have on it?

 

[Krypton]

Very cool.....what effect is icing supposed to have on it?

Concentrating sugars. My initial Brix is about 12, I have a target for 32-33 Brix in the concentrate. Since sugar rich liquids melt at lower temperatures, they melt first. I might have to do 2-3 freeze/thaw cycles, the cider coming out is not quite as concentrated as I would like (right now it is 20).

 

[bernardsmith]

If the OP is British then "cider" can be the unfermented apple juice and freezing that (then allowing it to thaw while collecting "first runnings") concentrates the sugar and the flavor (by removing water) so you can create a wine or even a desert wine without adding any sugar. If the OP is from the States then I think he is talking about jacking the fermented cider (which concentrates the alcohol by removing the water).

 

[Krypton]

If the OP is British then "cider" can be the unfermented apple juice

Am not British, but "cider" seems to refer to unfermented apple juice in the USA (hard cider would be the fermented juice). Here in Canada I would normally just say juice, but I'm adapting to the audience So unfermented apple juice it is. And @bernardsmith is correct, I am making an ice cider, which is quite like an icewine, you drink it as a dessert (very good with cheese and maple syrup..!).

 

[bmd2k1]

So you freeze the unfermented AJ....

Is anything added or done to it prior to freezing?

During freezing does some kind of separation take place or just a physical change to the AJ?

When you thaw it....are you only removing a specific portion of it to then be fermented?

As a cider newbie....this is very cool stuff....thx 4 sharing!

 

[bernardsmith]

Hi Krypton. You are correct , sir. My confusion. It's the Americans that call apple juice "cider"

 

[bernardsmith]

Cannot speak for Krypton, but I just froze some apple juice in order to concentrate the sugars and flavors. I wanted to use it to back sweeten a "candy apple" wine I had made, so I got just about all the sugars in the first quart. (you lose about 2/3- 3/4 of the volume)..

 

[Krypton]

So you freeze the unfermented AJ....
Is anything added or done to it prior to freezing?

People do it how they like. I have not had any success with sulfites in my normal hard cider (fermentation won't start), so I am not using it here. Some people tend to recommend 25ppm sulfites before freezing. I could also add pectinase, but I would do it after the juice is concentrated because I think it is easier to test Brix without any precipitate in the juice (no scientific claim here, just a guess).

During freezing does some kind of separation take place or just a physical change to the AJ?

Freeze/thaw cycles without racking tend to separate the juice in two layers, sugar-rich juice in the bottom, mostly water on top. If you can't afford the time it takes or are too lazy like me, you just melt it partially and get concentrated apple juice. I let it melt partially (about half the content -- measure the brix coming out of the melting process. I would not collect under 20) and then put it back to freeze. I expect about 1/4th of the initial volume in final concentrated juice (I plan on doing the cryoextraction twice and keeping about half of the juice every time).

If you let it melt at very low temps, you would probably get a more concentrated juice at first and could go on with only letting 1/4th melt.

When you thaw it....are you only removing a specific portion of it to then be fermented?

Yes, but I don't determine the quantity by volume, rather by sugar content.

Also as a disclaimer, this is my first try, I have read a lot about it lately (I mean.. a lot lot..!) because I really like the taste of ice cider so I'm also a newbie .

 

[bmd2k1]

Does the frozen end game differ any from just buying 100% frozen AJ concentrate....other than you've created your own concentrate?

 

[Krypton]

Does the frozen end game differ any from just buying 100% frozen AJ concentrate....other than you've created your own concentrate?

I would not bet on it, but I think most of commercial juice concentrated has had water boiled off. This may change the flavor (see: fire cider) because the apples become baked. Moreover, most juice concentrates are normally pasteurized before concentration, which may make it harder for the yeasts (depending on the processing: UV pasteurization would be fine...). Concentrated apple juice often goes through an acid reduction step, but I like that tart taste.

I would say the plus of doing it yourself is:

• Choosing the type of apples you want
• Processing everything from the fruit itself -- so you can fine-tune every step of the process
• More fun

There's a little something about taking the fruit and making what you want from it, in a natural manner. I'm a chemist, I'm not really against using chemicals, but if I can make natural stuff myself, why not?!

Ice cider is slowly getting its own AOC ("appellation d'origine contrôlée", french for "protected designation of origin") in Quebec, Canada and is now a terroir product. The rules for labeling your ice cider an actual ice cider include "freezing the juice in natural cold". For homebrewing purpose, it's not really an obstacle, but I want to learn it proper. The real advantage is really to choose your own juice, which type of apples you use.

However the end product is probably similar to commercial concentrate juice, I'll have to try this one too!

 

[bmd2k1]

So once you have your concentrate....do you rehydrate it at all....or just ferment as is?

 

[Krypton]

So once you have your concentrate....do you rehydrate it at all....or just ferment as is?

Ferment as is. Aiming for Brix 30 to 35 (SG 1,130 to 1,155). Slow ferment using 71B wine yeast at low temperature. I would also try Safale S-04 but I fear autolysis for its low alcohol tolerance. It's worth a try though, it might stop fermenting by itself.

To prevent the yeast from fermenting dry, I follow the SG in an excel spreadsheet. If speed of fermentation goes past -0,002 SG/day, I rack. Might need another 3-5 racking to stop it fermenting at about 1,060 (multiple rackings starting at 1,075, every 2-3 days, cold crashing every time). Could use sulfites, but again, not a fan.. I may add 25ppm at this point, just to make sure, but racking 5 times to bring fermentation to a stop is my goal here.

 

[bmd2k1]

Great info....many thanks! Keep us posted [emoji41]

 

[bmd2k1]

Am not British, but "cider" seems to refer to unfermented apple juice in the USA (hard cider would be the fermented juice). Here in Canada I would normally just say juice, but I'm adapting to the audience [emoji14] So unfermented apple juice it is. And @bernardsmith is correct, I am making an ice cider, which is quite like an icewine, you drink it as a dessert (very good with cheese and maple syrup..!).

Have ya tried any others yeasts than those mentioned? What yeast characteristics are key? Thx!

 

[Krypton]

Nope! This is actually my first year making beer, wine, hard cider and ice cider (had to teach "chemistry of wine and other homebrews" in college so I might as well know what I'm talking about). I currently have 17x 1gal fermentation tests going on in the garage. Only two of them are ice cider and I am using Lallemand 71B-1122 and Safale S-04. Here is the reasoning (rationale?) behind these choices:

71B: Wine yeast so it will survive the harsh environment (high osmotic pressure from the high sugar content AND "high" alcohol content in the end -- around 10% is what I'm aiming for, but people use this yeast to go up to 13% for ice ciders). Also this yeast's reduces around 20-30% of the malic acid content as part of its normal metabolism. I do not think malolactic fermentation will occur in ice cider because of high residual sugar and the fermentation stopping process (multiple rackings and cold crashes in little time -- but I might be wrong here, just don't know).

Safale S-04: Alcohol tolerance of 5-10%, I'm aiming for 10 so I hope this one will make it easier for me to stop the fermentation process. I chose this one specifically because people seem to have had good results with it in hard cider. It gives fruity esters notes from what I heard. Plus I wanted to test the difference between wine and ale yeasts in ice cider.

I think I read that some people are using Lalvin EC-1118 (champagne). I had a mere 6 gals of apple juice so I'm content with only two different tests for this year.

 

[bmd2k1]

...just started my 1st batch of ice cider yesterday - 1gal and using S-04. Fermentation started within 2hrs of pinching -- ambient room temp 64-68F.

 

[Krypton]

Nice! Can't wait to get your results as well! 68F seems high to me for ice cider, but this yeast might do the trick and stop by itself. Good luck!

Mine are doing ok atm, the real one using 71B is fermenting at about -0,00150 SG/day, I will rack it soon to keep things calm.

My Safale S-04 gallon is a bit different, I concentrated some juice to a Brix of 18 then added sugar up to 31,5°Bx. It's having a hard time (-0,00061 SG/day over 2 weeks), I guess the culprit is low nutrients content and high osmotic pressure... I just raised the temp of this one to 55F (up from 45).

 

[bmd2k1]

To check the SG so frequently...Do you pull a sample & then return it to the vessel?

 

[bmd2k1]

Keeping it at constant 64F in my basement. 2days in and fermentation appears to be churning away nicely....no off odors at this point...which had been mentioned by someone as an S-04 characteristic.

 

[Krypton]

To check the SG so frequently...Do you pull a sample & then return it to the vessel?

I do not check it so often: Day 0, Day 12. I calculate the mean fermentation speed over that time. Claude Jolicoeur in his book says to keep it under -0,00200 SG/day. I met with another guy on a facebook group who keeps it below -0,00100 SG/day. Racking is effective to slow it down, but temperature changes are often enough if you can control it.

I check the SG in the tube in which the hydrometer came when I bought it. It takes about 50-60mL (2 fl. ounces) to fill it so I don't bother risking to put it back in there, I just drink it . I plan on taking about 5 readings until the fermentation is over (approximately days 12, 20, 30, 45, 60 -- I'll adjust to the SG readings, want to start stopping this one around 1.065; aiming for final SG of 1.055 a little under the norm). After stopping the fermentation (say day 60), I'll take 1 reading day 90, then 150, then at bottling around day 210. After every racking, I take another reading 2days later to see if fermentation was halted.

So I plan on using around 600mL of the product for tests. It is a lot for a 1gal batch, but this year is my first time so I am testing with small quantities. Next year I'll make 5gals if all goes well. Then 600mL seems like nothing

If fermentation restarts, everything changes since I'll have to rack it, cool it, then check it again.

I am acquiring data on °Brix to SG conversion during the fermentation. After a few batches, I think I'll be able to use Brix instead of SG (*people say it's less precise and cannot always detect a restarting fermentation early, I want to see for myself and might take brix in the begining, then SG). Taking °Brix takes next to nothing and is faster (3-4 drops) -- hence this experiment.

My ultimate goal is to buy a Tilt hydrometer for next year's batch to monitor it every day. I was a little too short on money this year for an additional gadget. You really don't want to spoil a 5gal batch of ice cider (here in Canada it will cost me about 200$ to make and a lot of time and effort)

 

[bmd2k1]

Are you adding any nutrients to your S-04 batch? I've read posts for both yes & no.

 

[Krypton]

Not yet, if it stalls I might. Again Claude Jolicoeur in his book says it is a very bad idea. He had no success stopping fermentation in a batch with nutrients. With S-04 it might do the trick since the yeasts should die at 10% ABV but I am not risking it unless needed. If the fermentation stalls and heat will not restart it, I'll add some. Otherwise I prefer playing it safe!

 

[bmd2k1]

Any off odors from your S-04 batch? None for mine so far...really seems to be churning away.....temp holding steady at 64F

 

[Krypton]

Not so far. It is fermenting slowly though. I also have a hard cider batch going on with this yeast and it tasted like sulphur at the 1 week mark. Just tasted it again and the bad flavor had faded away (at 3 week mark right now).

 

[bmd2k1]

...as per previous observations by others here....I do see alot of lees...that are light/fluffy in nature...at day3.

 

[bmd2k1]

Day3...

 

[bmd2k1]

...as an aside...my first 5gal batch cider finished the other day....4weeks using Wyeast 1272 American Ale II....great clarity...nice sweetness...and relatively small amount of dense lees. This will be my next ice cider endeavor yeast.

 

[bmd2k1]

I do not check it so often: Day 0, Day 12. I calculate the mean fermentation speed over that time. Claude Jolicoeur in his book says to keep it under -0,00200 SG/day. I met with another guy on a facebook group who keeps it below -0,00100 SG/day. Racking is effective to slow it down, but temperature changes are often enough if you can control it.

I check the SG in the tube in which the hydrometer came when I bought it. It takes about 50-60mL (2 fl. ounces) to fill it so I don't bother risking to put it back in there, I just drink it . I plan on taking about 5 readings until the fermentation is over (approximately days 12, 20, 30, 45, 60 -- I'll adjust to the SG readings, want to start stopping this one around 1.065; aiming for final SG of 1.055 a little under the norm). After stopping the fermentation (say day 60), I'll take 1 reading day 90, then 150, then at bottling around day 210. After every racking, I take another reading 2days later to see if fermentation was halted.

So I plan on using around 600mL of the product for tests. It is a lot for a 1gal batch, but this year is my first time so I am testing with small quantities. Next year I'll make 5gals if all goes well. Then 600mL seems like nothing

If fermentation restarts, everything changes since I'll have to rack it, cool it, then check it again.

I am acquiring data on °Brix to SG conversion during the fermentation. After a few batches, I think I'll be able to use Brix instead of SG (*people say it's less precise and cannot always detect a restarting fermentation early, I want to see for myself and might take brix in the begining, then SG). Taking °Brix takes next to nothing and is faster (3-4 drops) -- hence this experiment.

My ultimate goal is to buy a Tilt hydrometer for next year's batch to monitor it every day. I was a little too short on money this year for an additional gadget. You really don't want to spoil a 5gal batch of ice cider (here in Canada it will cost me about 200$ to make and a lot of time and effort)

What was the starting SG for your S-04 batch? What day did you start it?

 

[bmd2k1]

Here's link to Claude's 2012 presentation on Ice Cider

 

[bmd2k1]

I've got a different thread for my 1st ice cider...

But took an SG 2day at day7 and its 1.036.... OG was 1.12....so currently at ~11% ABV. Thinking I should cold crash & rack.

......

I did cold crash and rack it. Right now sitting in secondary at about 60F.