I think I just destroyed my quadrupel

[luckybeagle]

I had a Chimay Gran Reserve clone in my fermentation chamber with a blowoff tube. I was crashing the beer and didn't think to swap the blow off tube with a fresh airlock. Well, the beer shrunk as it got cold, creating a suction and pulling about a pint of starsan into the beer. I didn't think this would be an issue since the sanitizer was so much lower than the carboy, but it still drew it into the carboy.

Normally I wouldn't worry too much, but the growler holding the starsan had a few dead fruit flies in it. The sanitizer liquid was still clear, not cloudy.

Is it possible the starsan neutralized any funk those guys brought in before the starsan liquid ended up in my beer?

The beer is about 10% ABV... and it tastes fine. I've racked it to a clean carboy purged with CO2 and am bringing it from 40F up to room temperature to see if anything grows. What do you think the odds are of this beer getting infected?

Here's a pic before racking to secondary. Not sure if the green is hops material or funk from the liquid going in. I made sure to rack underneath it as best as possible:

 

[VikeMan]

I'd say your risk probably boils down to whether or not the star san solution pH was still in an effective range.

 

[luckybeagle]

Thanks vikeman, that makes sense. I have a pH meter on its way to me since mine broke the other day. I'll save the sanitizer and test it once it arrives.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

The main concern from fruit flies is acetobacter. Acetobacter needs oxygen, so as long as you keep it sealed and O2 free you should be good. 10% booze will do a pretty good job of keeping most other stuff out! Brettanomyces is really the main thing that could do much damage - hopefully the starsan killed it.

 

[luckybeagle]

The main concern from fruit flies is acetobacter. Acetobacter needs oxygen, so as long as you keep it sealed and O2 free you should be good. 10% booze will do a pretty good job of keeping most other stuff out! Brettanomyces is really the main thing that could do much damage - hopefully the starsan killed it.

Thank you! That's good to know. I've had a fruit fly infection before on a semi-open fermentation for a hefeweizen. It was 10 gallons-worth, and I thought I had done a good enough job sealing up my fermentation chamber..... nope.

My original plan was to bottle this beer and tuck it away for 6+ months... now I'm wondering if I should keg it to ensure there's no oxygen. I really don't like kegging belgians--they never turn out right for me--but I also don't want to dump this beer. What do you think?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Personally I'd still bottle it. The minuscule amount of O2 that gets into bottles would take a long time to feed a population of acetobacter. Just check a bottle every month or so to make sure they aren't turning into bottle bombs.

 

[luckybeagle]

Personally I'd still bottle it. The minuscule amount of O2 that gets into bottles would take a long time to feed a population of acetobacter. Just check a bottle every month or so to make sure they aren't turning into bottle bombs.

Cool cool. Man, I was thinking about harvesting and repitching this yeast into 5 gallons of a 10g tripel batch (the other half receiving WY3522). Not so sure I want to chance it now.

I'll get this beer in bottles soon. Thanks again

 

[smata67]

I don't see any issues here. Bottle it up, wait for carbonation and drink up. The yeast cake? Harvest to your heart's content. We sometimes tend to overthink things in this hobby. Particularly after downing the 7th brew. The only infection I ever had was on a beer where everything went fine. The time I stuck my arm into the fermentation bucket to retrieve a screwdriver, the time my dog decided to lap up some of the krausen when I wasn't looking, the time I forgot to crush the steeping grains, those all came out fine. RDWHAHB.

EDIT: Missed the 10%ABV bit, agree with all about not pitching such a high ABV cake if you have a choice.

 

[NGD]

I too have destroyed some bottles of Chinay Grand Reserve. Bottle and let it ride.

 

[Kickass]

I’m with everyone else on bottling and not worrying too much.

As far as reusing the yeast, I’m not sure if I’d reuse a yeast that’s depleted itself on a 10% abv beer. It might have some undesirable characteristics after working through something so big. Others can weigh in too.

 

[Big Monk]

I’m with everyone else on bottling and not worrying too much.

As far as reusing the yeast, I’m not sure if I’d reuse a yeast that’s depleted itself on a 10% abv beer. It might have some undesirable characteristics after working through something so big. Others can weigh in too.

I agree. So does Rochefort. Never repitch from your biggest beer.

 

[luckybeagle]

I agree. So does Rochefort. Never repitch from your biggest beer.

I've repitched a few generations of 3522 without obvious negative effects, but they all went into my house Tripels so maybe the repeated exposure to that same wort and the 8%-9% ABV environment wasn't out of the norm for that population.

Sometimes I make a starter. Other times I just pitch a calculated amount of slurry. Do you think making a starter can revive a tired yeast population after fermenting a big beer? Or is it really best to just dump it and buy new?

 

[Big Monk]

I've repitched a few generations of 3522 without obvious negative effects, but they all went into my house Tripels so maybe the repeated exposure to that same wort and the 8%-9% ABV environment wasn't out of the norm for that population.

Sometimes I make a starter. Other times I just pitch a calculated amount of slurry. Do you think making a starter can revive a tired yeast population after fermenting a big beer? Or is it really best to just dump it and buy new?

A rule of thumb is never repitch yeast from a higher gravity beer into a lower gravity beer. I repitch sequentially, i.e. pitch from smallest to largest and then dump.

Do what you are comfortable with and track the results.

 

[smata67]

I have repitched a yeast cake from a Rochefort 10 fermentation at 6.5% and 9% (removed portion of cake from stalled batch, made a starter, repitched into same beer) with the beer ending at 10.5%. No ill effects that I can detect, but it was not a full fermentation.

Repitched WLP550 (same as WY3522) from a 7.8% final ABV Dubbel into an 8.8% Dubbel, both finishing near enough to the BS predicted FG. Have saved and repitched non-Belgian yeast from 8% or so beers several times, as that is the range I usually brew, can't recall ever having any issues.

Wyeast (and WL also) recommends not harvesting over 6.5% ABV. 8%, I will harvest based on my own experience. 10%, well, there are $50-$60 worth of ingredients there, do you really want to risk using yeast that might not be ideal?

https://wyeastlab.com/yeast-harvesting-re-pitching

 

[luckybeagle]

Thanks everyone! Ok, I will not reuse this yeast. Hmm... I was trying to avoid the LHBS before embarking on my next brew, in an effort to be parsimonious and resourceful with the ingredients on-hand, but that's an excellent point that smata67 made above--its not worth bending over dollars to pick up dimes.

Since I brew a lot of Belgians, and since WY3787 is the most commonly used one (Westmalle/St Bernardus/Westvleteren and a bunch of others), I'm thinking this presents a good opportunity to get a culture established.

Is it possible to buy a Wyeast packet, build a 2L starter, split off half of it to store for later, then grow the remaining 1L starter up to pitchable levels? How often can you do that with the un-pitched side?

For example:
Yeast packet to 2L stater
Split in half and store 1L
Take the other liter and grow to 2L (or whatever pitchable level is needed). Brew with it
Take out the stored 1L, decant and grow to 2L
Split in half, grow that portion and pitch whilst saving the other 1L for later. Repeat

I'm not really wanting to brew a patersbier/enkel right now.

 

[smata67]

WY3787 I can't speak to, but WLP550 is a workhouse yeast, it always gets the job done as expected, but I find it way too high in phenolics or "Belgian Yeast Character." This fades over time, so if you are willing to have your beers sit for awhile, not an issue. I have some bottles that are 9 and 14 months old now and they are quite good, but I will not be using this yeast again. I think WY1388 gets good results in a shorter time frame and can produce high ABV beers. I just started using WLP540 and the phenols (buy a bottle of Rochefort 10 to get a feel) are quite subtle, but you really have to babysit this yeast. It is very temperamental and quits at the drop of a hat.

 

[IslandLizard]

Is it possible to buy a Wyeast packet, build a 2L starter, split off half of it to store for later, then grow the remaining 1L starter up to pitchable levels? How often can you do that with the un-pitched side?

Absolutely! I do things like that all the time, and prefer to have a low "starter generation" backup (an "S1") on hand.

Now if you need to grow a boatload such as for Quads or larger/multiple batches, you can significantly speed up the growth by putting the total slurry from the 2 liter starter at work. That may prevent you from having to do a 3rd starter round. Alas your reserve will be an "S2," that's totally fine.

For that, crash the 2 liters. Decant, and split the slurry over 1, 2 or more fermentation vessels, and propagate each to their max. Again, cold crash and save out the estimated overage of the crashed slurry (I use 2-4 small 4 oz "jelly" jars, 80-200 billion cells in each) and pitch the rest (the pre-calculated pitch amount).

Mind, my situation is a bit different than most, as I was lucky to score 2 orbital lab shakers a few years back. Each can take 4, 2-liter vessels (1/2 gallon pickle jars or 2 liter flasks) on each. Or use gallon jugs.

In lieu of that, for these big ones, I recommend using at least 2 stir plates. It makes a big difference!

 

[luckybeagle]

WY3787 I can't speak to, but WLP550 is a workhouse yeast, it always gets the job done as expected, but I find it way too high in phenolics or "Belgian Yeast Character." This fades over time, so if you are willing to have your beers sit for awhile, not an issue. I have some bottles that are 9 and 14 months old now and they are quite good, but I will not be using this yeast again. I think WY1388 gets good results in a shorter time frame and can produce high ABV beers. I just started using WLP540 and the phenols (buy a bottle of Rochefort 10 to get a feel) are quite subtle, but you really have to babysit this yeast. It is very temperamental and quits at the drop of a hat.

That is really good to know about the 'Rochefort' strain! And also about the Chimay strain. I have brewed with 1388 before and like it--it made a killer Golden Strong and a convincing Affligem Blond clone for me last year. My attenuation with that one was off the charts, though--and I've heard some versions of that strain can rip through sugars that other yeasts, even those with high attenuation like most Belgian strains, leave in tact. I'm pretty sure my BGS finished at like 1.003, though there were three pounds of table sugar in it, so maybe that's more to blame than anything else.

The only other time I've used WY1214 Chimay was on a Quad that ended up tasting like blood--I was mashing in an igloo MLT with brass fittings, but also used molasses and D-90 instead of just straight D-90. Since then I haven't messed with it, so I thought I'd give it one more go.

My go-to has been 3522 Ardennes since I started brewing, but I abandoned it after everyone sang such high praises about 3787. Aside from N'Ice Chouffe, I am not aware of any quadrupels I've had with the equivalent to WY3522, either. Maybe I should try to brew one with this yeast, and just figure out what sort of fermentation character I want. 3522 seems like it can be very neutral in the low 60's, and is an apricot explosion in the high 60s low 70s.

Rochefort 10 is one of my favorite Quads--second only to Straffe Hendrik 11. When I lived in the Netherlands, I almost always had one or two in my fridge--at 2 euros a pop, why not?! God, all the memories that brewing Belgians has conjured up is unreal. I think I need to go back.

Pics from the local grocer's offerings. 2017

 

[VikeMan]

My go-to has been 3522 Ardennes since I started brewing, but I abandoned it after everyone sang such high praises about 3787.

Wyeast 3522 (or WLP550) is pretty dang versatile. A few degrees in fermentation temp can make a big difference.

 

[jrgtr42]

I'm planning on a tripel soon, and thinking of what yeast I want to use.
In looking at the Wyeast 3787 Trappist High Gravity, or the White 550, it talks about the esters and phenolics, which I want, rather than the White 500 or 530, which both talk about fruitiness and plum notes, which I don't want in this style - a dubbel or quad, yes, but not in a tripel.
are there any plusses or minuses for either of these strains?
I will plan on making a big starter for any of the options, and hoping to crop and save for later.

 

[smata67]

Just some notes on my two WLP550 experiences. Typical Dubbel recipe, similar to MoreBeer's Belgian Dubbel. Mashed at 151F, pitched 400B cell starter into 5G 1.074 wort, both at 68F, and let free rise to 75F, which happened overnight. Of course, went nuts, one always need to be prepared with a LARGE blowoff (1/2" airlock hole not enough, literally blew the top off of a bucket years ago, lesson very much learned). Took it down to 1.014 with no hassle for an 80% attenuation, 7.8%ABV. No real issues, might have taken a couple of months to carbonate, though. Phenolics too high for my taste, maybe not typical for this strain. It was an LHBS purchase, so no postal overheating and otherwise smelled fine. But can't rule out an issue with the yeast.

Not being pleased with the phenolic nature the first go around and thinking it might have been the 75F temperature, fermented a second batch 4 months later at 68F, pitching yeast from previous, pretty much following same approach, but got MUCH higher efficiency from the Malting Company of Ireland's Stout Malt (essentially a standard brewer's 2L 2-row). OG of 1.084 attenuating down to 1.017 for similar attenuation around 80%, 8.8%ABV. Made little difference in end product, once again, too high phenolics for my taste.

I know I compared the results with McChouffee, but can't recall what I thought. Might need to do that again. And again. These come in the finest bottles of any brew I've had, worth getting them just for that.