I love no sparge brewing...

[HSM]

Check it when it comes in. If you bought it from USAPUMPS, he had some mixups on delivery. I ordered mine a month ago, it was late (got it Monday), and it was the center inlet, not inline that I ordered.

However, Michael from USAPUMPS was quick to correct the issue and is sending replacement head. Smoking deal on pumps and gets me set to do my own no sparge.

Yes, bought it from usapumps, they have already emailed the UPS tracking number, so I expect a quick delivery. I bought the Center inlet, I hope i get it!


At 100% positive feedback with 90 transactions I consider that solid and bought it.

If you bought on Ebay and had to wait a month for the wrong product then some Neg or at the least Neut feedback was in order.

 

[chefchris]

Wouldn't you be worried about off flavors and chill haze as a result of slow wort cooling?

See here - the chemistry is hard to dispute:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter7-4.html

nope.

try it and see.

 

[BargainFittings]

Keep wondering if its workable to incorporate an electric BK and recirculate. Guess I would have to keep a close eye on the fluid levels to prevent burning out the element.

 

[jkarp]

Keep wondering if its workable to incorporate an electric BK and recirculate. Guess I would have to keep a close eye on the fluid levels to prevent burning out the element.

That's exactly what my system does. It's really not that tough to balance the flow - especially if you've got one of those uber-nice Bargain Fittings sightglasses like I do somewhere in the system.

 

[Baron ken]

Keep wondering if its workable to incorporate an electric BK and recirculate. Guess I would have to keep a close eye on the fluid levels to prevent burning out the element.

That's exactly what my system does. It's really not that tough to balance the flow - especially if you've got one of those uber-nice Bargain Fittings sightglasses like I do somewhere in the system.

JK, I thought you didn't recirculate?

Do you ever recirculate just to main temps? I guess the cooler eliminates the need for that.

Not unless I'm ramping to a new temp. Cooler holds temp great.

 

[HarkinBanks]

JK, I thought you didn't recirculate?

JK doesn't recirculate during the mash; only after the mash is complete and only then until 170 temp is hit. But you could easily recirculate the entire boil volume from mash in and maintain the mash temp with the PID in the Countertop Brutus 20 system. This thread made me think of that possibility to shave some time off the brew day. Would likely lose some efficiency, but not a ton.

 

[ZackWylde]

i think i might have to build a system like this. I to am thinking of using a E-kettle for brewing inside in those cold winter months.

It also holds pretty cool quick and easy decoction mash possibility's no more lifting and pouring hot ass wort back into the mash tun

 

[bakins]

If your brew kettle is large enough you can just use normal BIAB. I do it with an electric element. I just use a steamer basket to keep the bag up and off of the element.

The nice thing about Sacc's system (and jkarp's) is that you don't need a huge BK, because the water is split between the MLT and BK. (With BIAB, you generally need a BK at least twice the batch size bcs all the water is in with the grain.) One advantage of BIAB in a single vessel with a bag is that you get slightly better efficiency as you don't get as more wort absorbed by the grain -- the bag "squeezes" a little more wort out. And, no, I've never had issues with tannins.

I've been wanting to move up to 10 gallon batches. So that means for "normal" BIAB I need a 20 Gallon pot (at least). With a system like this, I can use my old 10 gallon cooler MLT and a 15 gallon BK. I'd have to rig a way to shut off the flow so I could never drain the BK completely during recirculation and dry fire the element. I like to be able to set my system and not be constantly monitoring it.

Okay, just rambling on....

 

[jkarp]

JK, I thought you didn't recirculate?

Actually, I did a continuous mash recirculation a few batches back with my Razzy Wheat. It worked extremely well. As for BIAB and grain absorption, I've been allowing the MLT to continue to drain during the boil. That's essentially another 60 minutes of sparge runoff that's so slow, most people wouldn't bother, but I'm getting grain absorption loss down into the 0.1 gal/lb range.

 

[Saccharomyces]

I have contemplated adding an electric element to the system, but if I were to do that I would go with the RIMS for dummies method because in his design there isn't any possibility of running the element dry (essentially, mount the element inside a tube that sits between the pump and MLT). Also I only have 110v 20A available in the garage, and we aren't planning on staying in this house long enough to make it worthwhile to upgrade to 220v service. A 2000w element is enough to maintain mash temps or to step but not enough to heat the whole volume to strike temp in a reasonable amount of time.

It isn't an accident this system looks a lot like jkarp's. I got the idea from reading his thread.

 

[Baron ken]

I do 10 gallon batches and if I wanted to batch sparge at least once (sort of, see below), do you think this would work using BK and MLT vessels, but no HLT?

Have a RIMS on the OUT side of the pump and recirc using that instead of the BK to maintain temps ( BK would be holding the sparge water after initial mash in of 1-2 qts/lb). Then when mash is done, recirc the sparge water from BK along with the runnings for mash out, then pump it all to BK.

 

[BargainFittings]

Actually, I did a continuous mash recirculation a few batches back with my Razzy Wheat. It worked extremely well. As for BIAB and grain absorption, I've been allowing the MLT to continue to drain during the boil. That's essentially another 60 minutes of sparge runoff that's so slow, most people wouldn't bother, but I'm getting grain absorption loss down into the 0.1 gal/lb range.

See? Its ideas like this that appeal to my cheap side!

I think its all come together now. I was doing BIAB and even though it works fine I just don't like the lifting of the bag. 2 vessel brewing I can live with and have been doing it with propane and mashing in one kettle, boiling in the other.

I just want to jump to an electric Boil kettle now.

 

[Saccharomyces]

I do 10 gallon batches and if I wanted to batch sparge at least once (sort of, see below), do you think this would work using BK and MLT vessels, but no HLT?

Have a RIMS on the OUT side of the pump and recirc using that instead of the BK to maintain temps ( BK would be holding the sparge water after initial mash in of 1-2 qts/lb). Then when mash is done, recirc the sparge water from BK along with the runnings for mash out, then pump it all to BK.

Yes the sparge adaptation of this design would use a 5 gallon converted cooler with a braid, which I already have as a second MLT. You would heat half the total volume in the BK, pump it over to the MLT, and start recirc between the MLT and cooler. Meanwhile sparge water would be heated in the BK. All first runnings would go to the cooler, the sparge water would be pumped into the MLT from the BK, recirculation performed until the wort is clear, and then the first runnings pumped over from cooler to BK while heating the second runnings boil.

I'm thinking about using this setup for 5 gallon batches of Imperial beers (over 1.065) where the grain savings would justify the extra 15 minutes required. For 10 gallon batches I will just do no sparge with a 15 gal kettle and do a 5 gallon partigyle batch with the second runnings.

 

[Baron ken]

I was trying to envision the process using only 2 vessels, a BK and a MLT. Instead of recirculating between MLT and an extra cooler during mash, I meant recirc from the MLT thru the RIMS and back to the MLT, with the RIMS just being an electric heater in a pipe type.
Then after mash is complete, have the BK added to the recirc and recirc the whole volume and after clear, just fill the BK. This would allow for a thicker mash.

EDIT: I'm not sure if this method would technically be considered a sparge. Maybe just an infusion at the end of the mash? I'm still new to AG.

 

[Saccharomyces]

I was trying to envision the process using only 2 vessels, a BK and a MLT. Instead of recirculating between MLT and an extra cooler during mash, I meant recirc from the MLT thru the RIMS and back to the MLT, with the RIMS just being an electric heater in a pipe type.
Then after mash is complete, have the BK added to the recirc and recirc the whole volume and after clear, just fill the BK. This would allow for a thicker mash.

EDIT: I'm not sure if this method would technically be considered a sparge. Maybe just an infusion at the end of the mash? I'm still new to AG.

Oh yeah you could certainly do that too, although with two vessels it would still be no-sparge, so there isn't really any advantage.

 

[AnonyBrew]

Do you think an adjustable hot plate would work to maintain a desired heat level in the kettle during mash recirculation? This could eliminate the need to manually operate a propane flame periodically to maintain mash temp.

The burner could be used to heat the water initially, then a hot plate to automatically maintain the desired temp.

 

[Baron ken]

Oh yeah you could certainly do that too, although with two vessels it would still be no-sparge, so there isn't really any advantage.

It would allow mashing at a lower water/grain ratio.

E.g. using 26 lbs grain, a 1.25 qts/lb ratio would need 8.125 gal of water to mash leaving 4.75 gal after absorption (using 0.13 gal/lb absorption = 3.38 gal), needing the other 7.75 gal in the BK (for a 12.5 gal pre-boil volume, 15.9 gal total water needed) which would be added to the recirc after mashing was done.

However, recircing the whole 15.9 gal for the mash would give a water/grain ratio of 2.45 qts/lb.

Not saying a >2 qts/lb ratio is bad, just saying that by using the method I described (with the RIMS), one could target different water/grain ratios as desired.

 

[Saccharomyces]

It would allow mashing at a lower water/grain ratio.

E.g. using 26 lbs grain, a 1.25 qts/lb ratio would need 8.125 gal of water to mash leaving 4.75 gal after absorption (using 0.13 gal/lb absorption = 3.38 gal), needing the other 7.75 gal in the BK (for a 12.5 gal pre-boil volume, 15.9 gal total water needed) which would be added to the recirc after mashing was done.

However, recircing the whole 15.9 gal for the mash would give a water/grain ratio of 2.45 qts/lb.

Not saying a >2 qts/lb ratio is bad, just saying that by using the method I described (with the RIMS), one could target different water/grain ratios as desired.

My experience has been that anything under 1.5 qt/lb leads to incomplete conversion due to dough balls / difficulty stirring the mash. My efficiency jumped almost 10% when I started mashing thin, so I mash everything at 1.5 qt/lb or thinner regardless of whether I sparge or not. Even at 2.6 qt/lb, it converts amazingly fast and my mash efficiency ends up being 95-100%...

 

[Saccharomyces]

The burner could be used to heat the water initially, then a hot plate to automatically maintain the desired temp.

Hmm... I have one and didn't think about using it. I will give it a try next time!

 

[Baron ken]

My experience has been that anything under 1.5 qt/lb leads to incomplete conversion due to dough balls / difficulty stirring the mash. My efficiency jumped almost 10% when I started mashing thin, so I mash everything at 1.5 qt/lb or thinner regardless of whether I sparge or not. Even at 2.6 qt/lb, it converts amazingly fast and my mash efficiency ends up being 95-100%...

I noticed this yesterday. Of the few AG batches I've done, they were all 1.25 qts/lb or less. Oct 18 I got 72% eff. @ 1.23 qts/lb and yesterday, Oct 25, I got 79% eff. @ 1.5 qts/lb.

I had never 'seen' a dough ball before yesterday's brew (yes, there were alot and I broke them up :cross, so I'm guessing that I probably just plain missed them when I was using a thicker mash.

I'm planning to get a pump and basically have the same set up as you except I'll be using a keggle for the BK (for 10 gal batches). Thanks for all the info.

EDIT: Actually, it will be mostly like your set up. I plan to chill, so I will be making a CFC/pump bucket ala JK's Countertop Brutus 20.

EDIT2: Did you ever get pics of the inside of your cooler and sparge arm?

 

[Saccharomyces]

I noticed this yesterday. Of the few AG batches I've done, they were all 1.25 qts/lb or less. Oct 18 I got 72% eff. @ 1.23 qts/lb and yesterday, Oct 25, I got 79% eff. @ 1.5 qts/lb.

I had never 'seen' a dough ball before yesterday's brew (yes, there were alot and I broke them up :cross, so I'm guessing that I probably just plain missed them when I was using a thicker mash.

I'm planning to get a pump and basically have the same set up as you except I'll be using a keggle for the BK (for 10 gal batches). Thanks for all the info.

Sweet, nice to know I'm not the only one who had that experience. :rockin:

I have a 15 gal kettle for 10 gallon batches, I bought a weldless fitting kit for it too but I'm thinking of putting a Blingmann 20 on my Xmas wishlist instead.

 

[Baron ken]

Did you ever get pics of the inside of your cooler and sparge arm?

 

[Saccharomyces]

OK OK here are the pics.

Hose barb on the top of the cooler lid:



Hose barb under the cooler lid:



Sparge "arm" (3' of 3/8" ID hose with holes drilled in it with a barb and plug in the end):

 

[Baron ken]

LOL, I had read where you mentioned PVC before and was thinking you had a PVC pipe manifold type thing, so I was curious to see how you implemented it. I may not go to the trouble of an actual PVC pipe manifold since your tubing version works so well!

Thanks.

 

[Baron ken]

<snip> Dumped all 8.25 gal of water into the kettle, added my salts per the water adjustment spreadsheet assuming 8.25 gal of mash volume, and loaded up 11# of grain into my mash tun. Goal is to have 7 gal pre-boil, assuming .125 gal per # of absorption. BeerSmith says with that much water to heat to 162*F so I heated to 161*F while setting up, measuring, and crushing grain. Once I hit my strike temp I pumped all the water into the cooler and then started recirculating. <snip>

You say you dumped all the water to the MLT, but I'm guessing not all since you are recirculating to the BK and you say later that you balance the in/outflows so the BK doesn't drain too quickly. Or do you mean you dump it all to the MLT for dough-in, then let some drain back to the BK so you can start recirculating?

How much liquid is in the BK during recirc? 2 gallons? more? less? does it matter as long as there is some in there?

 

[MgMt_Home_Brew]

I read an article in this months BYO where a guy had a counter top AG system similar to this. It got me thinking about this approach.

In the same article the guy mentioned that doing the no-sparge method seemed to greatly improve the quality of his brews. So I have been looking at pumps and think I might go this route.

 

[jkarp]

I read an article in this months BYO where a guy had a counter top AG system similar to this. It got me thinking about this approach.

That guy is me.

Here's the thread that started it all. Lots more detail than the BYO article.

 

[MgMt_Home_Brew]

That guy is me.

Here's the thread that started it all. Lots more detail than the BYO article.

Oh that's awesome, that article was great! So you really think that the quality of your brews made a jump after switching to this process?

 

[JVD_X]

I'd avoid doing that, too. I set a better bottle a little too close to my burner once, and now it's less than a 6 gallon bottle.

NO NO! I warped the bottom of a better bottle just using the hot water from my tap (I keep at 142F).

 

[jkarp]

Oh that's awesome, that article was great! So you really think that the quality of your brews made a jump after switching to this process?

No sparge? For me, ABSOLUTELY. It's obvious to point out though that a LOT of great beers get made with traditional batch and fly sparges. I've just found a process that works incredibly well for me and reformulating my recipes to expect 70% efficiency instead of 80% meant only a few cents more in grain.