How would you fix consistent, low mash efficiency?

[Denny]

I'm new to all grain, I've completed 5 batches now. Had low efficiency on my first batch, fixed it with my second. I did 4 things: 1) I bought a mill and crushed my own grain, 2) increased my sparge water temp from mash temp (152f) to 170f, and 3) looped the tail in my mash tun rather than leaving it straight, and finally 4) lengthened my lautering time. It usually takes at least 15 mins for first runnings, and over 30 mins to drain second runnings (3 gallon batches). Mash efficiency went from 55% to 72%. I've gotten between 74% and 80% since then.

If you batch sparge, I'm 99% certain that 3 & 4 didn't make any difference. I've experimented with those dozens of times.

 

[jmitchell3]

If you batch sparge, I'm 99% certain that 3 & 4 didn't make any difference. I've experimented with those dozens of times.

Good point. I'll try opening it wide open next time and see if it makes a difference. Thanks!

 

[max384]

Or simply find a vendor who provides a good crush....I can vouch for Brewmasters Warehouse's crush. All of the the major online places will also have a good crush.

I wouldn't say all of the major online places have a good crush. I've received four crushed grain recipe kits from Midwest Brewing and was unhappy with all of their crushes. The last two recipe kits that I received were two Kolsches sent to me by accident that were pre-crushed (someone else's order. I called them to tell them about their mistake, and they told me to keep the order since they couldn't reuse it! :rockin. The first one I brewed as it was crushed. The second one I ran through my mill again. I had a far higher efficiency with the one I crushed. To be fair, I crush mine a bit finer than most, but I wouldn't call their crush good.

 

[MindenMan]

I have two HBS available to me, one is less than ten miles away, and the other is a half hour drive. I started doing business with the half hour away store many years ago and then I didn't brew for years. I guess I will refer to the local store as the small store, and the other store as the big store. Sizes of the stores are very different, and small and large are relevant. I believe in spending money local whenever possible, and I do, but it has occurred to me recently, why do some batches barely hit my predicted O.G unless I sparge the hell out of it, while some batches have a 1.030 sparge water left over? Crush. It has to be. I scoop my own grain out of bins at the big store, and see what the crush looks like before I buy it. Looking back and scratching my head, duh!, it has got to be the crush. I recently brewed an Amber ESB, and came up short of my predicted O.G., so after another sparge, and another gallon of water to boil down, I finally hit the numbers. This grain came from the small store. He uses a mill powdered by a drill motor, and the big store has a large, bolted to the floor, grain mill. The small store has what looks like a percentage of the hulls not properly cracked. He a great guy, and has quite a knowledge about brewing. If everybody else likes the grain crack gap he has, and I am sure they do, I am just not going to ask, so if I need small amount of something, I will go there for convenience.

 

[SavaShip]

How long does your sparge take? I increased my efficiency by 10% by sparging with 168 degree water, and making sure the water is extremely slowly trickled in from the top of the grain bed, passing through the grains very very very slowly, over about an hour. My first gallon gets slowly poured back through the grains. These methods put me at about 75% efficiency. I could try to better crack the grains to get more sugars out, but I fear adding flavors from tannins by doing that.

 

[Denny]

How long does your sparge take? I increased my efficiency by 10% by sparging with 168 degree water, and making sure the water is extremely slowly trickled in from the top of the grain bed, passing through the grains very very very slowly, over about an hour. My first gallon gets slowly poured back through the grains. These methods put me at about 75% efficiency. I could try to better crack the grains to get more sugars out, but I fear adding flavors from tannins by doing that.

Tannins are due first and foremost to pH. If your pH is correct, you can crush very fine and sparge with 190F water without problem. I've done it for over 450 batches.

 

[SavaShip]

Tannins are due first and foremost to pH. If your pH is correct, you can crush very fine and sparge with 190F water without problem. I've done it for over 450 batches.

I'm curious now, John Palmer states tannins are due to fine soluble husk, and temperatures above 170F. I love to bust brewing myths, so now I have to run 2 equivalent batches one my normal way, and one more finely crushes with 190F sparge. side by side would be the only way to tell if they have a significant flavor difference. Have you ever done a side by side?

 

[clickondan]

How do you deal with the drop in temperature from stirring that much?

I stir at dough in, 10 minutes, 20 minutes and 55 minutes. I lose 3F across an hour long mash. I've thought about adding a bit of boiling water at my 20 minute stir but for now when I start my timer I stabilize at 1-2F higher than my target mash temp. I'm almost always satisfied with my temps. I don't get any tannic flavors from 180F sparge water. The actual sparge volume (grains and water) stabilizes very quickly between 165-170, assuming OK pH I don't think that's in a danger zone for tannin extraction. I believe the extra heat of a hotter sparge thins out the viscosity and provides a bit more energy to wash off sugars.

While I'm writing, I'll tell you this as well. Regrettably I go against opinions of folks much greater than myself with this, but I ran an experiment and actually added 5% to my efficiency by slowing down all of my lautering, from wide open, down to 1 qt/min. Box cooler, SS brain manifold, single batch sparging. I also figured out why this is the case, with my gear: It's because when I was lautering wide open, I was sucking down wort faster than said wort could filter through the grain bed. I was creating an air gap that widened as I lautered, and the mass of wort left above the air gap didn't seem to have enough momentum to want to go anywhere. Sure, it was left behind for the sparge, but having the same issue again with the sparge just compounds the issue.

 

[Denny]

I'm curious now, John Palmer states tannins are due to fine soluble husk, and temperatures above 170F. I love to bust brewing myths, so now I have to run 2 equivalent batches one my normal way, and one more finely crushes with 190F sparge. side by side would be the only way to tell if they have a significant flavor difference. Have you ever done a side by side?

That is old, untested info. John was simply repeating what he'd always heard without testing it. I've done back to back, but not side by side. And that was many years ago. Not to toot my own horn, but I'm a high ranking, very experienced BJCP judge. I've now brewed hundreds of batches with a very fine crush and sparge water in the 190F range. If there were tannins, I'd know it. Admittedly, batch sparging helps the situation since I'm not continually diluting the ability of the grain to buffer pH.

 

[SavaShip]

That is old, untested info. John was simply repeating what he'd always heard without testing it. I've done back to back, but not side by side. And that was many years ago. Not to toot my own horn, but I'm a high ranking, very experienced BJCP judge. I've now brewed hundreds of batches with a very fine crush and sparge water in the 190F range. If there were tannins, I'd know it. Admittedly, batch sparging helps the situation since I'm not continually diluting the ability of the grain to buffer pH.

Please don't take my comments as doubting you at all Denny! I truly love to find the truth of every statement made, and until you typed that, I never thought to doubt the information presented by John Palmer. So now I really will test it myself, probably with tiny mildly diluted batches to really get the raw flavor, and see if it's noticeably different.

 

[heckler73]

I see! Well... I was hoping I could avoid a new kettle, since I'd also need to buy a burner instead of using my stove. I brew 5 gallons at a time.

get another 5G pot and boil two of them on the stove. It's a little more thinking and work to split up the hop additions and volumes, but worth it, compared to brewing outside in the rain with pine needles falling all around me.

 

[hbrookie]

I see 3 problems. The first two are pretty important. The third one isn't.

1) You aren't sparging with enough water. A five gallon batch should start the boil with about 6.5 gallons. Whatever water didn't start in the mash may as well be in the sparge. (unless this is an exceeding light beer. There is a threshold where you can run the sugars in the water too low and start extracting tannins from the grist. That's bad)

2) It sounds like you LHBS needs to adjust their mill.

3) Efficiency doesn't need to be exceptionally high. It just needs to be consistent. I see people tout their efficiency often in these forums, but the truth is that it just needs to be consistent so you can calculate with it. The exception to this is when you have to add so much more grain to your batch that it further decreases you efficiency, making it even more difficult to brew. When this happens, you need to look for more efficient methods.

 

[wilconrad]

Not to toot my own horn...

He won't, so I will. "Denny" is Denny Conn, google him. He put the "Denny" in WY1450. You can probably just take his word for it on this one.