How to hit target batch sparge temps?!?!?

[HappyHeadBrew]

Using myriad calculators to determine strike and sparge temps, we've found they all come up with basically the same numbers: for grain that is room temp (68) in a preheated mashtun (converted cooler), seeking a mash temp of 154, we get a strike temp of 165 and a sparge temp of 177. We've use the batch sparge technique for 5 batches now (2 just yesterday) and we have yet to nail our target temps! I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced this problem and what you have done to fix the problem?

Our typical process includes heating our strike water up to 165, putting about 2 gallons in the mashtun to warm it up, slowly adding grains and additional water- we almost always hit about 149, to our intense disappointment. The resulting beer has thankfully turned out pretty damn good, but we are numbers-nerds and would really like our predictions to be more accurate.

With our 2 batches yesterday, we even heated our strike water up to about 174, and even then our starting mash temp only came to about 152 (which was better than the 149 we had been getting previously).

ALSO... I've realized our Coleman cooler mashtun loosens up a bit around the lid during the hour long mash, certainly decreasing both our efficiency and the capacity for the mash to stay within a degree or 2 of our target temp (we've lost up to 4 degrees, even when covered with a sleeping bag). Any recommendations for good coolers to replace ours, particularly those that can handle 10+ gallon batches, would be very much appreciated!!!

Thanks in advance!

 

[Bobby_M]

I'd look closer at your preheating regimen. Putting your 165 strike into a cold cooler is not PRE heating. You might think everything is up to temp but it's probably not. If the calculators are looking for 165, heat the strike water up to 180, pour it in the cooler and close the lid for 5 minutes. Also tilt the cooler a bit to all four sides to warm the walls. Check the temp and if necessary, stir the water with the lid open until it hits 165, then dough in. You'll be happy.

 

[HappyHeadBrew]

If the calculators are looking for 165, heat the strike water up to 180, pour it in the cooler and close the lid for 5 minutes. Also tilt the cooler a bit to all four sides to warm the walls. Check the temp and if necessary, stir the water with the lid open until it hits 165, then dough in. You'll be happy.

Great advice! I'm already looking forward to trying this stuff out.

 

[o4_srt]

To control heat loss through the lid, make a sub lid by stacking styrofoam insulation, gluing it together, then cutting it to fit snugly in the cooler. Cover the whole sub lid in aluminum duct tape, and add some type of handle or tab to aid in removal.

After hitting your mash temp, float the sub lid on top of the mash.

I was averaging 5 degrees of loss per hour before the sub lid, now I'm down to 1-2.

 

[emjay]

Coleman Xtreme coolers are easily the best widely available coolers. There PROBABLY ARE some better ones that are specialty and/or luxury coolers made by high-end or custom manufacturers, but for the cost of a decent-sized cooler like this, you could probably afford to ditch the coolers altogether and go with a HERMS setup!

The cooler I have is a 50qt wheeled Coleman Xtreme Ultimate that I found digging through the storage room of my house, apparently left here by a friend who moved to Egypt (way better than finding $50 in my coat pocket!). The "Ultimate" is apparently even better insulated than the regular Coleman Xtreme coolers. The label on it claims it can keep ice for 6 days in 90° temps; the regular ones boast 5 days.

But the "regular" ones are so good that the Ultimate series is probably just overkill. If I hadn't found it, I wouldn't have bothered with an Ultimate. You can buy a 100qt regular one for about $20 more than a 50qt Ultimate, and a 72qt one for ~$30 less (the 62qt regular one has wheels like mine, which makes it $10 more than the 72qt). They are all big enough for 10gal batches though, and if you REALLY need ridiculous capacity, they go up to 100qt, which allows for absolutely gargantuan grain bills.

Either way, they are without a doubt the best coolers available for the purposes of a mash tun, and don't require any drilling as they all have removable plastic spigots.

As far as hitting temps, the other poster is probably right that it's probably just not being pre-heated nearly enough. That's why I don't even bother with pre-heating. The BeerSmith software features the ability to calculate strike temps based on your equipment, and it has allowed me to hit my temps perfectly, despite mashing in with a room-temperature cooler! It's important to be precise with the equipment information it asks for though - when I initially went AG with a smaller cooler, I estimated the cooler as weighing 5 pounds, and I was always WAY off. I finally got around to checking the actual weight (which was 7.5lbs), and the strike temps it calculated for me from that point on were absolutely perfect... so that seemingly tiny 2.5lb difference in thermal mass actually had a huge impact.

However, I'm pretty sure I've seen other software that calculates the same thing, as well as simple homebrew calculators. Heck, the formulas for taking thermal mass into account aren't even that complicated, if you're one of those guys who wants to be able to figure all the numbers out without any form of software. But I strongly prefer this method because a) you don't need to guess or hope that you've pre-heated your cooler adequately, and b) it just simply does away with the completely unnecessary extra steps involved in pre-heating - heating up a lot of water, filling the mash-tun, waiting for it to absorb and uniformly distribute the heat (it IS heavily insulated, after all), and then dumping/draining the water.

 

[petep1980]

It takes some experience I think. You also have to make sure any programs you use are tweaked so they are applied to your system.

For instance in beersmith, there is an option for mash profiles to let it know that you drained the wort before you mashed out.

You also need to know your mash temp before you mash out. If you go from 150 mash in to 144 at mash out, and you calc they you're raising a 150 temp mash out, right there you'll be off by 6 degrees.

Recently, motivated by an article in BYO, I tried a no mash out, no sparge brew day. This way my only concern is hitting one temp. It was kind of a relief. You do a much larger mash in, about 2x the normal size, and then collect wort and boil after an hour. It worked quite well for me.

 

[Brewfat]

It takes some experience I think. You also have to make sure any programs you use are tweaked so they are applied to your system.

For instance in beersmith, there is an option for mash profiles to let it know that you drained the wort before you mashed out.

You also need to know your mash temp before you mash out. If you go from 150 mash in to 144 at mash out, and you calc they you're raising a 150 temp mash out, right there you'll be off by 6 degrees.

Recently, motivated by an article in BYO, I tried a no mash out, no sparge brew day. This way my only concern is hitting one temp. It was kind of a relief. You do a much larger mash in, about 2x the normal size, and then collect wort and boil after an hour. It worked quite well for me.

I'm intrigued by this for smaller beers. What kind of efficiency did you get? How much time do you think you saved?

 

[petep1980]

I'm intrigued by this for smaller beers. What kind of efficiency did you get? How much time do you think you saved?

I got a 75% yesterday. I also milled my own for the first time. I am hoping I didn't mill it too small.

I tried this for the sole intent of smalled beers.

I probably saved 2 hours alone in sparging. I also was able to multi-task better during mash in because I didn't need to measure, pre-heat or prepare any sparge water.

 

[Brewfat]

Was wondering about time savings since it would take much longer to heat strike water. Might try this next weekend on a blonde.

 

[HappyHeadBrew]

Recently, motivated by an article in BYO, I tried a no mash out, no sparge brew day. This way my only concern is hitting one temp. It was kind of a relief. You do a much larger mash in, about 2x the normal size, and then collect wort and boil after an hour. It worked quite well for me.

Sounds very interesting. I would imagine your resulting wort has a nice OG, too. Any chance you could point me in the direction of that article??

 

[petep1980]

Sounds very interesting. I would imagine your resulting wort has a nice OG, too. Any chance you could point me in the direction of that article??

I checked their website and the article isn't available online. It's from this month's magazine.

They compared sparge methods; fly sparge, batch sparge, brew in a bag, no sparge and another one or two, and their conclusion was that no method made significantly inferior beer.

It seemed their wasn't a huge difference; same brewer, that much in efficiency. A guy doing fly sparging was getting 90% eff, and no sparge he got 80%. Some fellows getting mid 60s in batch would get high 50s in no sparge. So, efficiency was definitely lower, but man I'll lose 10-15% if I can cut my day the way I did.

 

[scadieux]

Also interested in this article. My cooler is big enough to accomodate for a ridicously large mash-in for 5-gallon batch.