How much DME do I need to carbonate a 5 gal keg?

[shoestealer17]

I started with 20 lbs CO2 pressure on the keg and then disconnected it. I have herd 1/4 cup and 3/4 cup DME that you add before you close up the keg, does anyone know?

 

[GetLooseontheGoose]

what style of beer do you have?

 

[shoestealer17]

This one is a scotish style ale

 

[maltbarleyhops]

first off...
measure DME/CORN SUGAR by WEIGHT, not volume.

 

[Suds]

Gentlemen - I've kegged about six batches and have only force carbed. My question is this: is there any benefit to carbing naturally and then dispense with the gas…I know it will save on gas, but will the beer be any better? I know natural carbonation will leave sediment on the bottom of the keg which I don’t mind if it improves the beer. Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

 

[dobeluvr]

Don't know about taste, but it will allow a person to carbonate more kegs than they have room for on tap.

I find it helps the seal also. I've pressurized to 30 lbs without sugar, and went back the next day to find barely any pressure at all, making me wonder what would it have done if I hadn't checked it for a few days. Leak? I doubt it, as it is fine if I add the sugar and leave it for weeks.

 

[mcarb]

nevermind

 

[shoestealer17]

Don't know about taste, but it will allow a person to carbonate more kegs than they have room for on tap.

I find it helps the seal also. I've pressurized to 30 lbs without sugar, and went back the next day to find barely any pressure at all, making me wonder what would it have done if I hadn't checked it for a few days. Leak? I doubt it, as it is fine if I add the sugar and leave it for weeks.

When you pressurize it to 30 lbs and leave it you only pressurize the head space, and then the beer absorbs the CO2, making it carbonated, the head space now has less pressure because the beer has absorbed most of the CO2 when reaching equilibrium.
When you add sugar and leave it for weeks the yeast eats the sugar and constantly produces CO2 until all of the sugar is gone. This carbonates the beer and adds pressure.
If you want to pressureize and carbonate without priming sugar you either have to leave it connected to the CO2 bottle, or charge the keg up with the CO2 bottle every so often to repressurize the head space so more CO2 can be absorbed into the beer, (just make sure not to over carbonate that way)

 

[shoestealer17]

first off...
measure DME/CORN SUGAR by WEIGHT, not volume.

If the density of DME or Corn Sugar is about the same across most batches of DME or Corn Sugar than I dont think it makes much of a difference

 

[cheezydemon3]

I force carb to 57 or so and disconnect.

3-4 days, perfect carbonation, but bleed off the excess pressure first.

There is no "set it an forget it pressure" without bleeding off.

45 lbs or so goes well, until the headspace is depressurized and then it takes forever for the remaining to dissolve.

 

[shoestealer17]

What do you mean by bleed off the excess pressure first?
You hook the bottle up and charge it to 57 lbs then disconnect and leave it for 3-4 days then pull the release valve to vent the extra pressure?

 

[Golddiggie]

If the density of DME or Corn Sugar is about the same across most batches of DME or Corn Sugar than I dont think it makes much of a difference

Accuracy of going by weight will always be superior to by volume. Have a small ding in your measuring cup? That will throw off the volume measure. Want to carbonate to a different level? How are you going to do that with volume?

With a decent scale you can get accuracy to 1/8th of an ounce (or go metric if you wish).

The ONLY thing I'll measure in volume is water (for boiling or into a starter) and volume in a primary. Even for starters, I'm going with weight of DME per water volume.

I am interested in hearing people's general opinion on carbing with sugars and then using CO2 (nitro or beer gas) to push to the tap. I'm planning on setting up for kegging within another month or so, so I'll need to figure out which method will give me the best options/results. I do like the idea of having just one pressure setting on the CO2 regulator for all brews, so that I can carbonate each keg as I wish. I know that some will be carb'd lighter than others, depending on what's going into it. Right now, I prefer to go no more than 1/2 into the CO2 volume range of a brew style.

When carbonating with sugars, inside a corny, how much CO2 do you fill the headspace with (to what pressure)?

 

[rawlus]

Accuracy of going by weight will always be superior to by volume. Have a small ding in your measuring cup? That will throw off the volume measure. Want to carbonate to a different level? How are you going to do that with volume?

With a decent scale you can get accuracy to 1/8th of an ounce (or go metric if you wish).

The ONLY thing I'll measure in volume is water (for boiling or into a starter) and volume in a primary. Even for starters, I'm going with weight of DME per water volume.

I am interested in hearing people's general opinion on carbing with sugars and then using CO2 (nitro or beer gas) to push to the tap. I'm planning on setting up for kegging within another month or so, so I'll need to figure out which method will give me the best options/results. I do like the idea of having just one pressure setting on the CO2 regulator for all brews, so that I can carbonate each keg as I wish. I know that some will be carb'd lighter than others, depending on what's going into it. Right now, I prefer to go no more than 1/2 into the CO2 volume range of a brew style.

When carbonating with sugars, inside a corny, how much CO2 do you fill the headspace with (to what pressure)?

naturally carbonating your kegs to different/desired pressures wont make much difference once you.ve hooked up to a consistent CO2 source for serving... all of the kegs will equalize pressure to the serving pressure - if one keg is 20psi and one is 6psi but your CO2 setup is set at 12PSI across all the kegs, your 6 will come up to 12 and your 20 will go down to 12 as you bleed off pressure through serving...

as to the benefits of priming in kegs, i think they are fairly straightforward...
there is a modest gas savings (which may or may not be affected by DME or corn sugar costs)
more importantly, you can be prepping, conditioning, carbonating kegs without taking up space in the keezer/kegerator. if you have more kegs than space, this allows you to keep kegs in the pipeline and have product ready to go on tap immediately after a cold keg kicks.

i am not of the school that priming adds and flavor or quality aspects...

 

[Golddiggie]

naturally carbonating your kegs to different/desired pressures wont make much difference once you.ve hooked up to a consistent CO2 source for serving... all of the kegs will equalize pressure to the serving pressure - if one keg is 20psi and one is 6psi but your CO2 setup is set at 12PSI across all the kegs, your 6 will come up to 12 and your 20 will go down to 12 as you bleed off pressure through serving...

as to the benefits of priming in kegs, i think they are fairly straightforward...
there is a modest gas savings (which may or may not be affected by DME or corn sugar costs)
more importantly, you can be prepping, conditioning, carbonating kegs without taking up space in the keezer/kegerator. if you have more kegs than space, this allows you to keep kegs in the pipeline and have product ready to go on tap immediately after a cold keg kicks.

i am not of the school that priming adds and flavor or quality aspects...

I'm looking at carbonating brews to different CO2 VOLUMES per keg (if I keg now) and then use [just] enough gas to serve the brews up on tap. I don't want the serving pressure to add CO2 volume to the brew.

I've been priming all my brews with honey (wildflower)... The other home brewers that have sampled my brews have noticed the difference over using regular priming sugar. I'm also priming to levels that I want, not just using 5oz/5 gallons of brew (of priming sugar)...

If there's no way to keg and keep the CO2 volumes I wish within the brew, then that's a reason for me to NOT keg. At least not with cornies.

If there's a gas pressure level that won't put any more CO2 volume into the brew, but is enough to push the brew out to the tap, then I'd like to know.

 

[shoestealer17]

I'm looking at carbonating brews to different CO2 VOLUMES per keg (if I keg now) and then use [just] enough gas to serve the brews up on tap. I don't want the serving pressure to add CO2 volume to the brew.

I've been priming all my brews with honey (wildflower)... The other home brewers that have sampled my brews have noticed the difference over using regular priming sugar. I'm also priming to levels that I want, not just using 5oz/5 gallons of brew (of priming sugar)...

If there's no way to keg and keep the CO2 volumes I wish within the brew, then that's a reason for me to NOT keg. At least not with cornies.

If there's a gas pressure level that won't put any more CO2 volume into the brew, but is enough to push the brew out to the tap, then I'd like to know.

To maintain a certain CO2 level in your beer you will have to have different regualators for each keg to controll the pressure, if you have a manifold they will all equalize in pressure. Internet sites sell primary and secondary regulators that link together to serve several different beers at different CO2 levels with the same CO2 bottle. That is the only way you can have several kegs on one bottle with different pressures, separate regulators, otherwise the beers will all eventually equalize in pressure which is what you don't want

 

[rawlus]

as shoestealer said, CO2 is a gas, it will naturally equalize in a closed system - if you drop your serving pressure to 5psi, then eventually all the beers will settle there for their carbonation level as well.

brewers who desire different CO2 volumes for different beers in their system will have a series of independent low-pressure regulators, so they can dial each keg in to the desired pressure - this pressure is both the desired CO2 volume AND the serving pressure.

this can add some cost to the total cost of a system, a ~$50 regulator for each keg, plus in some cases, additional line length to maintain a balanced system at the tap, etc.

IMHO, unless you plan to have wide variances in desired CO2 volumes, you can probably get by with 2 low pressure regulators into multi-port manifolds - one manifold representing the higher avg desired volumes and one manifold representing the lower avg volumes. not sure independent regulators is necessary for 10, 11, 12 psi - but perhaps one for 9-12 and one for 15-20 or something like that.

IMHO, unless you can taste/sense the difference between 10 and 12psi, the difference is statistically insignificant on the homebrewing scale.

it has nothing to do with cornies by the way, any keg type will behave the same (gas pressure seeks equlibrium)

 

[shoestealer17]

2nd on rawlus.
He said it better than I did any way, probably didnt help that I was drunk last night when typing my previous post

 

[Golddiggie]

as shoestealer said, CO2 is a gas, it will naturally equalize in a closed system - if you drop your serving pressure to 5psi, then eventually all the beers will settle there for their carbonation level as well.

brewers who desire different CO2 volumes for different beers in their system will have a series of independent low-pressure regulators, so they can dial each keg in to the desired pressure - this pressure is both the desired CO2 volume AND the serving pressure.

this can add some cost to the total cost of a system, a ~$50 regulator for each keg, plus in some cases, additional line length to maintain a balanced system at the tap, etc.

IMHO, unless you plan to have wide variances in desired CO2 volumes, you can probably get by with 2 low pressure regulators into multi-port manifolds - one manifold representing the higher avg desired volumes and one manifold representing the lower avg volumes. not sure independent regulators is necessary for 10, 11, 12 psi - but perhaps one for 9-12 and one for 15-20 or something like that.

IMHO, unless you can taste/sense the difference between 10 and 12psi, the difference is statistically insignificant on the homebrewing scale.

it has nothing to do with cornies by the way, any keg type will behave the same (gas pressure seeks equlibrium)

That actually makes more sense to me... But it also begs the question of what's the typical lowest PSI level for serving brew (via tap) in a keezer configuration? Taps would be either through a top tower, or possibly on the side of the unit. Using enough feed line (for the taps) to get things to work properly. Right now, I'm thinking that a keezer temp of 45-50F would be what I'd be using (liking how the homebrews taste in those temperatures). On the low end, maybe 40F.

I wouldn't need to nail the CO2 levels within the brews dead on, but I would want them to stay fairly close to what I carbonated them to (via honey)... I still plan (nothing purchased yet, so it's still in the planning stage) to carbonate the brews at around 70F. I had faster carbonation, with great results, when I moved my brews to that temperature (or closer to it for most of the day). Of course, for the hot/summer months, I might need to get another chest freezer to use as a carbonation chamber (for the days when it gets too warm in my apartment)... I suspect that if I put brews in the basement, my landlord will snake some away (if in bottles)... So two ~7CF chest freezers will be on the order list...

Chances are, the keezer will be going into the living room, so that I have a shorter distance to go when wanting a brew and watching tv (or on the computer)...

BTW, [FONT=&quot]shoestealer17, are you a mean drunk?? To think, I didn't even have any last night, and you were TUI (typing under the influence)...
[/FONT]

 

[shoestealer17]

That actually makes more sense to me... But it also begs the question of what's the typical lowest PSI level for serving brew (via tap) in a keezer configuration? Taps would be either through a top tower, or possibly on the side of the unit. Using enough feed line (for the taps) to get things to work properly. Right now, I'm thinking that a keezer temp of 45-50F would be what I'd be using (liking how the homebrews taste in those temperatures). On the low end, maybe 40F.

I wouldn't need to nail the CO2 levels within the brews dead on, but I would want them to stay fairly close to what I carbonated them to (via honey)... I still plan (nothing purchased yet, so it's still in the planning stage) to carbonate the brews at around 70F. I had faster carbonation, with great results, when I moved my brews to that temperature (or closer to it for most of the day). Of course, for the hot/summer months, I might need to get another chest freezer to use as a carbonation chamber (for the days when it gets too warm in my apartment)... I suspect that if I put brews in the basement, my landlord will snake some away (if in bottles)... So two ~7CF chest freezers will be on the order list...

Chances are, the keezer will be going into the living room, so that I have a shorter distance to go when wanting a brew and watching tv (or on the computer)...

BTW, [FONT=&quot]shoestealer17, are you a mean drunk?? To think, I didn't even have any last night, and you were TUI (typing under the influence)...
[/FONT]

Haha, some people tell me I am occasionally, but I think im rather nice and yes, I was TUI, on an iPhone none the less, I had to comeback and fix typos this morning haha

And to get to the question above, you want around 5 ft of 3/16" ID beer line between the faucet and the keg, and you dont want to dispense at less than 6 psi. Now, this is a topic of great debate, but I dont go less than 8 PSI, im usually closer to 10-12 depending on the beer. You want to dispense at the same pressure that the beer is carbonated at. Equilibrium is the key here. The regulator should be set at the pressure you want your beer at and the beer line length be adjusted to control flow rate. Ive always left my beer lines at 5' and had no problem getting a good pour

 

[cheezydemon3]

.....Yes SS (OP) I pressurize to 57psi, let it sit (COLD) for 3 days. BLEED off ALL pressure (unless you can eyeball 12 psi, I can't, better not to spray beer out of the nozzle at 25 psi) hook back up to your system IMMEDIATELY at whatever pressure you serve at. Gas will enter the keg to fill the headspace and you will be close to 12 psi. Over the next 24 hours it will be perfect, but certainly drinkably carbed immediately. I lower to 8 psi to serve in case it is a little overcarbed at this point.

KEG AND BEER MUST BE COLD AT THE START OF THIS PROCESS. If you just syphoned warm beer into the keg, just add one more day before bleeding and serving.

 

[Golddiggie]

Haha, some people tell me I am occasionally, but I think im rather nice and yes, I was TUI, on an iPhone none the less, I had to comeback and fix typos this morning haha

And to get to the question above, you want around 5 ft of 3/16" ID beer line between the faucet and the keg, and you dont want to dispense at less than 6 psi. Now, this is a topic of great debate, but I dont go less than 8 PSI, im usually closer to 10-12 depending on the beer. You want to dispense at the same pressure that the beer is carbonated at. Equilibrium is the key here. The regulator should be set at the pressure you want your beer at and the beer line length be adjusted to control flow rate. Ive always left my beer lines at 5' and had no problem getting a good pour

Oh brother, another one of those iphone perverts...

I could go with ~8PSI if setting the keezer to 49-51F (depends on how tight the controller keeps the temps)... That way I can have one regulator set for porters/stouts, another for ales, and possibly a third for a higher carbonation level. Using the chart found here: http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php that is... Most of my brews will be in the gray/green bands, with possibly an occasional brew in the yellow band (maybe)... So I could do two valve setups for the different styles of brew and be good...

Of course, I'm also thinking of pushing some brews with nitro/beer gas, but will decide that once I see how things work out under CO2... Beer gas/nitro could be something for next fall/winter...

 

[shoestealer17]

.....Yes SS (OP) I pressurize to 57psi, let it sit (COLD) for 3 days. BLEED off ALL pressure (unless you can eyeball 12 psi, I can't, better not to spray beer out of the nozzle at 25 psi) hook back up to your system IMMEDIATELY at whatever pressure you serve at. Gas will enter the keg to fill the headspace and you will be close to 12 psi. Over the next 24 hours it will be perfect, but certainly drinkably carbed immediately. I lower to 8 psi to serve in case it is a little overcarbed at this point.

KEG AND BEER MUST BE COLD AT THE START OF THIS PROCESS. If you just syphoned warm beer into the keg, just add one more day before bleeding and serving.

Cold meaning fridge cold or just room temp?
I know that beer absorbs more CO2 at colder temperatures, ill just have to see how it works out with my fridge space on what exactly I can do

 

[Golddiggie]

I think, when it's time, I'll keg a batch (5 gallon batch) into two 2.5 gallon corny kegs, and carb one with honey, and the other with CO2... Push both out at the same serving pressure and see if there's any difference (that can be tasted)... That will be the ultimate test.

I'm already planning on using the 2.5 and 3 gallon corny kegs for the majority of my brews (while doing 5 gallon batches)... Those will be much easier to transport to gatherings/parties and also mean that if people love it, and kick the keg , I'll still have some at home to enjoy.

 

[maltbarleyhops]

If the density of DME or Corn Sugar is about the same across most batches of DME or Corn Sugar than I dont think it makes much of a difference

sorry to dispute you but it makes a world of difference. measure out 1/2 cup of corn sugar or DME 5 different times and weigh them. this one experiment will change your mind.

now, if details are not important to the particular brew your carbing, then your in the clear.

 

[Golddiggie]

sorry to dispute you but it makes a world of difference. measure out 1/2 cup of corn sugar or DME 5 different times and weigh them. this one experiment will change your mind.

now, if details are not important to the particular brew your carbing, then your in the clear.

That's why I always go by weight when carbonating (via sugar/DME/honey)... Plus, it will be far easier to reproduce later, or alter to better suit what you want for results.

Also, who's to say that DME from every manufacturer will have the same weight by volume? A small change in the grain size will change the weight by volume.

Plus, Beer Smith gives carbonation sugar by weight, not volume. So you'll be hard pressed to get the exact (or within a reasonable amount) amount to add when using volume.

Just like we don't add grains by volume, but by weight.

 

[rawlus]

That actually makes more sense to me... But it also begs the question of what's the typical lowest PSI level for serving brew (via tap) in a keezer configuration?

just to make sure its clear - your CO2 serving pressure should be the same as the volumes of CO2 you wish to maintain in your beer. if your beer is at 12 psi and you want to serve at 5psi, the beer will eventually equalize to 5psi - losing much of its carbonation.

the serving and storage pressures are inherently connected. you cannot change one without eventually changing the other. (unless you want to always be turning up and down the pressure between servings so that the appropriatr storage pressure is maintained.)


you can push beer from keg to tap with as little as 3 or 4 psi - but leaving the regulator at that setting after you've pushed your beer will allow the beer to de-carbonate and equalize the pressure of dissolved CO2 in the beer to the headspace pressure of CO2 gas.

bottomline, i think you may be getting a bit into the weeds on this one, it is not nearly as complicated as you may think... if the addition of honey at a certain volume merely creates a desired carbonation level, that can be exactly duplicated via CO2 infusion at a specific pressure. If the honey adds addtional flavor characteristics that you enjoy, then you can condition/naturally carbonate with honey and then MATCH the final volumes of CO2 in the resulting beer with an equal regulator pressure when you connect the keg to CO2.

the idea of "adjusting" the CO2 volumes via the honey addition is unnecessary work, because your final CO2 volumes are going to be determined when you connect the keg to gas, not what you've done during conditioning with honey. does that make sense?

saying it one more way. you could condition ALL your kegs with an EQUAL amount of honey (to keg that honey-conditioned flavor), then purge all the headspaced of the kegs of excess pressure, hook them up to your kegging setup, dial the regulators to whatever desired CO2 level you want for that style of beer, and pour away - within a few days each of the kegs will have equalized to whatever pressure is on the regulator - the amount of honey added during conditioning becomes insignificant to the outcome except perhaps in terms of taste (not carbonation).

 

[rawlus]

dont get hung up on the term serving pressure. serving pressure = storage pressure = carbonation level. it's all the same. you cannot change one without affecting the other two.

 

[Golddiggie]

dont get hung up on the term serving pressure. serving pressure = storage pressure = carbonation level. it's all the same. you cannot change one without affecting the other two.

Sounds like I'll need to get regulators to handle each set range of carbonation level in the kegs. I would be ok with a 2-3 PSI range to cover set styles, since I would tend to carbonate that way (levels wise)... So porters/stouts would be 6-8 PSI (all at 45F), where ales would be 12-14 PSI. I don't plan on doing any highly carbonated ales, lambic's or wheat beers at this point. So two pressure sets, with manifolds to be able to feed multiple kegs of each. How many will depend on the size keezer I build up. If the keezer has room for enough kegs, I'll probably plan on 2-3 porters/stouts at one time, and 2-4 ales on tap. Leaving room to place one on beer gas/nitro in the future.

At 45F, would there be any negative impact with having the gas tank(s) inside the keezer? Or should I just plan to have it outside, running the main feed line through a bulkhead (or ball valve to allow me to shut it off at the keezer level when needed)?

After reading your post from 3 minutes before the one quoted... I'm planning to match, as closely as possible, the CO2 volume created via the honey, and what the CO2 pressure would result in (via the chart from kegerators.com)... From what you've posted, it also sounds like I can more easily increase/decrease the CO2 volume level within the brew by altering the pressure the kegs are at. So if I find that I want a little more, or less, within the styles, I can adjust the pressure accordingly. I'm assuming that this is something that would take time to take full effect. Which is another reason I can see for placing my brews into the smaller corny kegs. I'll be able to pressure up, or down, the ones in the wings to match what I'm finding (during the initial time frame) for the brews... I think that once I find settings that work best, for me, I'll be inclined to not change them.

 

[rawlus]

it makes no difference to the beer if the CO2 tank is inside or outside of the keezer. your high-pressure dial will read differently, but that is merely pressure relative to temperature. your low-pressure gauge is unaffected - in other words, if the low pressure gauge/regulator is set to 12psi, it will deliver 12psi no matter what the ambient temperature.

inside is usually how people start out, then migrate to outside when they need the room. mine is outside with a bulkhead going to an adapter and then to a keg post - so i can snap CO2 on and off easily and move the CO2 tank around for other things like individual bottle carbing with a carbonating cap or making a bottle of soda water, etc.
there's a recent post about this on here somewhere with pics of different people's solutions to this (including mine)

two manifolds with low-pressure regulators on each both going to the tank with a high pressure gauge (or no gauge at all even) seems to make sense for your needs. you can either get a Y adapter at the tank, or go from the tank to a splitter, or 2 port manifold and then from there to two 4 or more port manifolds. there are alot of options here.

i like the micromatic premium regulators/gauges - easier to adjust and seem more commercial in quality.

 

[shoestealer17]

I think, when it's time, I'll keg a batch (5 gallon batch) into two 2.5 gallon corny kegs, and carb one with honey, and the other with CO2... Push both out at the same serving pressure and see if there's any difference (that can be tasted)... That will be the ultimate test.

I'm already planning on using the 2.5 and 3 gallon corny kegs for the majority of my brews (while doing 5 gallon batches)... Those will be much easier to transport to gatherings/parties and also mean that if people love it, and kick the keg , I'll still have some at home to enjoy.

Let us know how this turns out, I'd be interested to see