Hops for ESB

[eastbaybrewer]

I've been putting a recipe together for a ESB and it seem that a few English brewers are using some American hops in there recipes. So would do you think of willamette, EKG, and cascade hop combo for my esb?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

ESB is one of those BJCP categories that was slightly made up to accommodate certain famous beers (admittedly, it's not quite as delusional as the whole "Northern/Southern Brown" thing) but which features far more prominently in the thoughts of US homebrewers than of British commercial brewers.

These days, if a British brewer was looking to make something that was not dark, stronger than a best, and featuring US hops, it would get called an APA or IPA. Can you give examples of British beers featuring US hops being marketed as an ESB? Bitters and bests have broadened in scope to include US hops as there's not really a US equivalent to those beers, but with ESB being a name that's little used anyway, and the "sexy" alternatives being appropriate, I'm honestly struggling to think of one. Ultimately are you just trying to make "a nice beer" or are you trying to make something that other people will recognise as an ESB?

So if you're going to call it an ESB, I'd suggest it kinda has to use British hops. But I'd allow myself to use some of the modern fruitier ones like Jester or Olicana, maybe Ernest if you can get hold of it - and be generous with them on the cold side. I'd also wait a couple of weeks for the new harvest - last year's hops will be a year old and 2016 was not a great vintage in the first place, in Kent at least. Today is the traditional start of the Goldings harvest in Kent, so we'll know what it looks like very soon!

 

[Sir-Hops-A-Lot]

What is your recipe?
I often used Biermuncher's Captain Hooked on Bitters ESB recipe. It uses a combination of Willamette (and American Fuggles variant) and Tetnang (German noble hop).
Once I split a 10 gallon batch and dry hopped part of it with Cascade and Centennial. It was a hit.
An ESB recipe can be made into a great American Pale Ale by substituting American hops in the whole recipe. I once did it by mistake, using the 5 oz of Centennial from a Dead Ringer recipe in an ESB. It was great!

 

[day_trippr]

[...]So would do you think of willamette, EKG, and cascade hop combo for my esb?

Sacrilege!

Cheers!

 

[Upthewazzu]

I used Northern Brewer, Chinook, and Southern Cross in an IPA I made this past Spring, but would have been a fantastic combo in an ESB. Those hops amount to a lot of "pine" with just a hint of citrus (and I mean just a hint).

 

[BrewKaiser]

Like @Norther Brewer states, if you're going for a true representation of an ESB (Bitter, best or whatever you want to call it) then I would stick with traditional hops. Personally, for an ESB that I brew I use Challenger at FWH, then again at 15 min along with EKG. That's it, no dry hops or whirlpool.
I think the malt bill, yeast and fermentation, and carb levels also play a very important roll in replicating this style beer. For instance, I like to use Lyle's Golden Syrup (4-5% of grist) in my recipe. Gives it a nice caramel quality - IMO.

I think using more modern American hops you just wind up with a Pale Ale, albeit I'm sure tasty

 

[eastbaybrewer]

https://www.wychwood.co.uk/beers/

I heard a interview with the brewer and he mentioned using some American hops. There esb doesn't use American hops but a few of the beers do.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Challenger and Fuggles!

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

 

[Northern_Brewer]

https://www.wychwood.co.uk/beers/

I heard a interview with the brewer and he mentioned using some American hops. There esb doesn't use American hops but a few of the beers do.

Oh sure - he'll use US hops - almost every brewery in the UK uses them (there are some exceptions, for instance there's a rugby-themed brewery which only uses hops from rugby-playing countries). As I say, the bitter and best categories have expanded to include them. But using US hops in an ESB is like using Citra in a tripel or Challenger in a New England IPA - you're stretching the label so far that it becomes meaningless. IMO

However, I wouldn't be scared of being generous on the cold side - people have this idea that British beers aren't dry hopped when they've been dry-hopping since at least the 19th century. They just don't depend on dry-hopping alone for their flavours - malt, yeast, water and kettle hops all play their part. Using modern British hops would allow you a bit of US fruitiness whilst staying true to the principle of it being a British style. You'll never mistake Jester or Ernest for Citra or Galaxy, but they can introduce pronounced fruit notes whilst keeping that British delicacy. A recent Champion Beer of Kent was an EKG/Jester blend with a good slug of crystal(?) and an estery yeast and it's delicious.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

https://www.wychwood.co.uk/beers/

I heard a interview with the brewer and he mentioned using some American hops. There esb doesn't use American hops but a few of the beers do.

Oh sure - he'll use US hops - almost every brewery in the UK uses them (there are some exceptions, for instance there's a rugby-themed brewery which only uses hops from rugby-playing countries). As I say, the bitter and best categories have expanded to include them. But using US hops in an ESB is like using Citra in a tripel or Challenger in a New England IPA - you're stretching the label so far that it becomes meaningless. IMO

However, I wouldn't be scared of being generous on the cold side - people have this idea that British beers aren't dry hopped when they've been dry-hopping since at least the 19th century. They just don't depend on dry-hopping alone for their flavours - malt, yeast, water and kettle hops all play their part. Using modern British hops would allow you a bit of US fruitiness whilst staying true to the principle of it being a British style. You'll never mistake Jester or Ernest for Citra or Galaxy, but they can introduce pronounced fruit notes whilst keeping that British delicacy. A recent Champion Beer of Kent was an EKG/Jester blend with a good slug of crystal(?) and an estery yeast and it's delicious.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Like @Norther Brewer states, if you're going for a true representation of an ESB (Bitter, best or whatever you want to call it) then I would stick with traditional hops. Personally, for an ESB that I brew I use Challenger at FWH, then again at 15 min along with EKG. That's it, no dry hops or whirlpool.
I think the malt bill, yeast and fermentation, and carb levels also play a very important roll in replicating this style beer. For instance, I like to use Lyle's Golden Syrup (4-5% of grist) in my recipe. Gives it a nice caramel quality - IMO.

I think using more modern American hops you just wind up with a Pale Ale, albeit I'm sure tasty

I agree with BrewKaiser, though of course at the end of the day, "who cares, and do what you want..."

I've seen the gamut in late flavor and aroma, from none, to pronounced. I can be heavy handed with hopping on any bitter, but I'll just say, my ESB has kettle Challenger, 15 min. Styrian, Steeping/Whirlpool EKG, and dry hopped with First Gold. I probably overuse Styrian, a habit I picked up at Goose Island.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

ESB is one of those BJCP categories that was slightly made up to accommodate certain famous beers (admittedly, it's not quite as delusional as the whole "Northern/Southern Brown" thing) but which features far more prominently in the thoughts of US homebrewers than of British commercial brewers.

These days, if a British brewer was looking to make something that was not dark, stronger than a best, and featuring US hops, it would get called an APA or IPA. Can you give examples of British beers featuring US hops being marketed as an ESB? Bitters and bests have broadened in scope to include US hops as there's not really a US equivalent to those beers, but with ESB being a name that's little used anyway, and the "sexy" alternatives being appropriate, I'm honestly struggling to think of one. Ultimately are you just trying to make "a nice beer" or are you trying to make something that other people will recognise as an ESB?

So if you're going to call it an ESB, I'd suggest it kinda has to use British hops. But I'd allow myself to use some of the modern fruitier ones like Jester or Olicana, maybe Ernest if you can get hold of it - and be generous with them on the cold side. I'd also wait a couple of weeks for the new harvest - last year's hops will be a year old and 2016 was not a great vintage in the first place, in Kent at least. Today is the traditional start of the Goldings harvest in Kent, so we'll know what it looks like very soon!

Just want to say, nice to meet you here, Northern. I've been out of brewing many years and am trying to get back. "Get back" would include a trip to England, which we did somewhere around 1998-99**. I feel ancient on hop varieties, and appreciate your post. I have a lot to catch up on.

**Good amount of time in Hook Norton and Stoke-On-Trent, where I met Ian the brewer from Titanic Brewery and was amazed to see the different approach from where I worked, Goose Island. Goose has something like 18 assay points in the (closed) production chain, IIRC. When I saw Ian walk across the floor with an open bucket of yeast and toss it into an open fermenter, stirring it in, I knew I was in love with an entire approach. I hope I can get back there.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

**Good amount of time in Hook Norton and Stoke-On-Trent, where I met Ian the brewer from Titanic Brewery and was amazed to see the different approach from where I worked, Goose Island. Goose has something like 18 assay points in the (closed) production chain, IIRC. When I saw Ian walk across the floor with an open bucket of yeast and toss it into an open fermenter, stirring it in, I knew I was in love with an entire approach. I hope I can get back there.

Heh heh - Titanic are a bit more grown-up now, for better or worse, they're doing over 800bbl/week now. I've always had a real soft spot for their beers, and there's not many breweries that have created a whole new subcategory of beer as they have with Plum Porter. Ian's now got his own place - Lymestone - but the Botts are still around, Keith was the big boss of SIBA.

With you saying you need to get into Belgium more, you really need to visit Dolle - not only is Kris one of the more eccentric characters in an industry that's not short of them, but the brewery is wonderful, barely a bit of stainless steel in sight. He's quite happy for tour parties to go into the little room with the open fermenter and have them practically leaning over the wort - his only concession to health and safety is to suggest we get out if we're being overcome by CO2. And you could really feel it, there was no ventilation in there other than the door.

As for Styrians - I guess you could replace with Fuggles to get the same genotype in a more appropriate terroir, although many English brewers have traditionally not been so loyal. The British hop growers are starting to develop the concept of hop terroir though, they've got an appellation for EKG and they've been working on the biochemistry of what our terroir does to hop biochemistry. In short the lower light intensity means that the profile isn't dominated by just a certain few chemicals, you get a more complex soup. So it's like Bordeaux versus Californian cabernet - but then we knew that from the taste anyway....

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Great post and fantastic info to dream over and about, Northern, thanks. Already on the road to learning more abot Lymestone (loved meeting Ian), Dolle; and thinking on the Fuggles usage. I've done many single-strain versions of that ESB - have a version with Type 45 fuggles only (probably because that's what Goose had at the time, not sure why I was using Type 45).

Big believer in terroir; a lunatic for the pinot noir grape, think it demands a light touch and, like a session bitter, there's nowhere to hide if you choose to go this route and honor this delicate, finicky grape with restraint and finesse. Anyway, thanks for sharing on the British developments. I'm fully behind such work, find it extremely important! (Look up Gigi Cazaux's work - she's doing something similar for Wisconsin artisanal cheese).

Thanks again, great to meet you, Northern.

 

[EnglishAndy]

Our traditional bitters, strong or otherwise, are most commonly made with Challenger, EKG and Fuggles. Depending on the brewer you'll sometimes see others such as Target, Styrian Goldings, Bramling Cross, Whitbread Goldings, Northdown and even Cascade.

My favourite strong bitter/old ale, the cask version of Theakston's Old Peculier, is bittered with Challenger and Fuggles at a 2:1 ratio then flavoured at 10 minutes with EKG at the same quantity as the Fuggles.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Our traditional bitters, strong or otherwise, are most commonly made with Challenger, EKG and Fuggles. Depending on the brewer you'll sometimes see others such as Target, Styrian Goldings, Bramling Cross, Whitbread Goldings, Northdown and even Cascade.

My favourite strong bitter/old ale, the cask version of Theakston's Old Peculier, is bittered with Challenger and Fuggles at a 2:1 ratio then flavoured at 10 minutes with EKG at the same quantity as the Fuggles.

I used to love Northdown in my big, black beers - Baltic porters and Imperial stouts. I used to describe a "baked dark fruit" quality that I know wouldn't likely be associated with the hop, but this quality was in these brews with this hop that I didn't get in pale beers, so I don't know. Synergy of malt and hop? Whatever it was, this quality was nice, and I was bummed when there was a time it seemed (IIRC) Northdown was going to be unobtainable any longer, at least in the US.

At any rate, I appreciate the post, Andy. Particularly with stronger pale beers, e.g., "ESB," I like WGV's offspring, First Gold, quite a bit.

 

[McKnuckle]

My favourite strong bitter/old ale, the cask version of Theakston's Old Peculier, is bittered with Challenger and Fuggles at a 2:1 ratio then flavoured at 10 minutes with EKG at the same quantity as the Fuggles.

Cheers Andy, this is helpful info as I toured Theakston last month and just loved OP on cask. I've been planning a recipe attempt for a while now, and it's almost ready to go.

How do you know their hopping protocol? The Theakston website specifically says "...two bitter hops combined with the majestic and noble ‘Fuggle’ hop..." - hence I am skeptical that Goldings are involved as a finishing hop.

Just curious if you know something we don't.

Regards

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Haven't had it in years - at least 15. Doesn't OP use treacle? That was such a delicious beer and I can't imagine how good it would be on cask.

 

[McKnuckle]

I plan to include Lyle's Black Treacle in my first attempt, actually. It's rumored to be a secret ingredient, but then there are various "clone" recipes online that do not use it (and some which do, including several other types of sugar).

I spent 9 days in England touring breweries and drinking at pubs as part of a beer trip, culminating at the GBBF in London. Of course I had many wonderful pints at some special places, but OP was one of the absolute stand-outs for me. It had a soft, silky, malty goodness, and a really unique banana/berry aroma.

Anyway, I don't mean to hijack the thread! Sorry about that.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I plan to include Lyle's Black Treacle in my first attempt, actually. It's rumored to be a secret ingredient, but then there are various "clone" recipes online that do not use it (and some which do, including several other types of sugar).

I spent 9 days in England touring breweries and drinking at pubs as part of a beer trip, culminating at the GBBF in London. Of course I had many wonderful pints at some special places, but OP was one of the absolute stand-outs for me. It had a soft, silky, malty goodness, and a really unique banana/berry aroma.

Anyway, I don't mean to hijack the thread! Sorry about that.

If I can just add a note off: - sorry!) - when my wife and I won our brewery tour to England, we hit the GBBF in London as well. Don't know if it's changed, but then you can take a 1/2 pt or pt around. I opted for the pint, of course. My wife demurred, and went with 1/2 pt. One of us left lucid.

Thanks for the tasting note on the OP...we can get NO bitters, even, here, except the occasional London Pride. Have to do a Chicago pilgrimage.

 

[EnglishAndy]

How do you know their hopping protocol? The Theakston website specifically says "...two bitter hops combined with the majestic and noble ‘Fuggle’ hop..." - hence I am skeptical that Goldings are involved as a finishing hop.

It's in the third edition of CAMRA's Brew Your Own British Real Ale. A highly recommended book just for the recipes even though you do have to fill in some important blanks yourself such as the water profile and yeast strain.

Cask OP has changed a bit over the years since the late 1980s when I first drank it (I'm a Yorkshireman) but is still in my opinion our finest strong ale. I'm fairly sure the gravity has drifted around a bit and I wouldn't be surprised if the recipe has been tweaked here and there. I don't know about the bottles, I don't drink them as they're never as good as cask.

 

[McKnuckle]

It's in the third edition of CAMRA's Brew Your Own British Real Ale.

Ah, that's the Graham Wheeler book I keep hearing about. Thanks! For better or worse, I'll give the hops recommendation a shot - but with Challenger and Fuggle in the boil, and Fuggle as late hops, using the proportions noted to hit 30 IBU.

If I have any success with my recipe, I'll post a separate thread.

Cheers

 

[ericbw]

If you're trying to make a British-style ESB, then I think you should go with British like hops. Willamette is a great choice for that (Fuggles descendant). Willamette and EKG is a good combination. Willamette at 60 and 20, then EKG at 5 or at flame out (or both). If you're wanting more aroma, then dry hop with the EKG.

I would avoid Cascade, especially at the end, because that is sort of the basic American craft beer aroma. It's classic, but not for this one.

I haven't found a British yeast I like (or that I can operate properly), so when I make British-styles, they tend to be with US-05 anyway. Style is a guideline, unless it's a competition.

 

[kristiismean]

I just made mine with fuggles and Delta......

should be ready in 2 weeks,

 

[Northern_Brewer]

As a token nod to the modern beer world, you can now get 1/3 pint glasses at the GBBF. If you're concerned with best value for money then asking for a 1/3 in a pint glass is the way to go, CAMRA servers always go over the line!

Of course, Theakston is now part of the Heineken empire, so in theory you should be able to get OP anywhere that has Lagunitas.... It's a rare spot in cask except maybe in Heineken pubs in the homeland or at the odd festival (although it was recently voted as the "special" to get in for a Bank Holiday weekend at a pub near me), but in bottle it's a mainstream supermarket beer.

It wouldn't surprise me if Theakston have switched from Goldings to one of the more modern equivalents - it ticks all the boxes for doing so - as a style it's not too dependent on hops for flavour, it's produced in volume so needs a reliable supply of a lot of hops, and the pressure from the multinational parent to cut costs. The disease susceptibility of Goldings is always a worry, particularly in bad years like 2016 - I even heard of breweries getting shorted on Challenger last year. So something like Northdown or Pilgrim would make sense.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Will Challenger lead to good results in ESB if used for flavor and aroma additions as well as for bittering? It is defined as spicy, but its spicy characteristic seems to go to waste if only used for the earlier bittering additions. What results might be expected from going 100% with Challenger?

Going out on a limb, Sterling might be interesting here as well. A quite spicy Saaz cross, with Challenger like alpha acid levels.

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

 

[Northern_Brewer]

If you're trying to make a British-style ESB, then I think you should go with British like hops. Willamette is a great choice for that (Fuggles descendant). Willamette and EKG is a good combination. Willamette at 60 and 20, then EKG at 5 or at flame out (or both). If you're wanting more aroma, then dry hop with the EKG.

I haven't found a British yeast I like (or that I can operate properly), so when I make British-styles, they tend to be with US-05 anyway. Style is a guideline, unless it's a competition.

Are Fuggles or Styrian Goldings really that hard to get Stateside that you have to bother with alternatives? By all accounts Willamette is quite close but just because there's a bloodline doesn't mean they will be the same - Citra has Goldings ancestry but you wouldn't say their profiles are at all similar.

And if you want aroma from British beers - that's the job of the yeast. That's not to say dry hopping doesn't have a place in British beers - it most certainly does - but if you aren't getting yeast esters in the aroma then it isn't British beer. Don't ferment too warm - Marstons pitch at 57F and let the wort rise to 66F. Obvious choices for an ESB are 1968/WLP002, the Fullers yeast, and 1768 from Young's (seems to be a seasonal from Wyeast?).

Of course style is a guideline, the aim is great beer - but there are guidelines and then there's guidelines. Things like Southern/Northern brown ale and ESB are essentially made up categories to accommodate individual commercial beers - but if you asked for one in a British pub then you'd either get a blank look or if you're lucky, they'd work out that you really meant Newky Brown or Mann's. Whereas ordinary bitter and best are "things" that are widely understood. Take a different example - there's no style guideline for what a hamburger is, but just adding one ingredient like cheese turns it into something else - a cheeseburger. Everyone just "knows" that, even though it's not laid down in a guideline. And you can claim that a slice of watermelon in a bun is a hamburger - but it really isn't.

British bitter is like a hamburger - a "thing" that's the way it is for a reason, honed over decades and millions of serves. Mess about with it too much and it is no longer a bitter, it's watermelon-in-a-bun. Unlike most other styles, all five ingredients - water, grist, hops, yeast and CO2 - all contribute their 20%, you need all five in balance plus the right level of condition and the right serving temperature - and then you get something truly special.

It's just a shame that cask seldom travels abroad and even in the UK it's often not served right. And classic brown bitter seems to lose the magic really quickly, sometimes within hours of being tapped. So you can drink a lot of very ordinary bitter and wonder what the fuss is about - but then you hit it right and you understand. It also doesn't help that some of the best places for cask are generally the places that tourists don't go to - suburban pubs in small industrial towns, whereas eg London is relatively poorly served for cask - and that much of the best cellar keeping happens in freehouses that don't have a regular beer that can be recommended with some hope that it will still be there in a month's time.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Are Fuggles or Styrian Goldings really that hard to get Stateside that you have to bother with alternatives? By all accounts Willamette is quite close but just because there's a bloodline doesn't mean they will be the same - Citra has Goldings ancestry but you wouldn't say their profiles are at all similar.

And if you want aroma from British beers - that's the job of the yeast. That's not to say dry hopping doesn't have a place in British beers - it most certainly does - but if you aren't getting yeast esters in the aroma then it isn't British beer. Don't ferment too warm - Marstons pitch at 57F and let the wort rise to 66F. Obvious choices for an ESB are 1968/WLP002, the Fullers yeast, and 1768 from Young's (seems to be a seasonal from Wyeast?).

Of course style is a guideline, the aim is great beer - but there are guidelines and then there's guidelines. Things like Southern/Northern brown ale and ESB are essentially made up categories to accommodate individual commercial beers - but if you asked for one in a British pub then you'd either get a blank look or if you're lucky, they'd work out that you really meant Newky Brown or Mann's. Whereas ordinary bitter and best are "things" that are widely understood. Take a different example - there's no style guideline for what a hamburger is, but just adding one ingredient like cheese turns it into something else - a cheeseburger. Everyone just "knows" that, even though it's not laid down in a guideline. And you can claim that a slice of watermelon in a bun is a hamburger - but it really isn't.

British bitter is like a hamburger - a "thing" that's the way it is for a reason, honed over decades and millions of serves. Mess about with it too much and it is no longer a bitter, it's watermelon-in-a-bun. Unlike most other styles, all five ingredients - water, grist, hops, yeast and CO2 - all contribute their 20%, you need all five in balance plus the right level of condition and the right serving temperature - and then you get something truly special.

It's just a shame that cask seldom travels abroad and even in the UK it's often not served right. And classic brown bitter seems to lose the magic really quickly, sometimes within hours of being tapped. So you can drink a lot of very ordinary bitter and wonder what the fuss is about - but then you hit it right and you understand. It also doesn't help that some of the best places for cask are generally the places that tourists don't go to - suburban pubs in small industrial towns, whereas eg London is relatively poorly served for cask - and that much of the best cellar keeping happens in freehouses that don't have a regular beer that can be recommended with some hope that it will still be there in a month's time.

Northern, how do you feel about Wyeast's West Yorkshire Ale, No. 1469, for bitters, to include Best and "ESBs"?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Will Challenger lead to good results in ESB if used for flavor and aroma additions as well as for bittering? It is defined as spicy, but its spicy characteristic seems to go to waste if only used for the earlier bittering additions. What results might be expected from going 100% with Challenger?

Going out on a limb, Sterling might be interesting here as well. A quite spicy Saaz cross, with Challenger like alpha acid levels.

Thing to remember is that if you say that a classic bitter is maybe 50:50 about hops and grist, and a best might even nudge towards 60:40, ESB is a bit more grist-led, maybe 40:60. So to some extent it's not so critical what the hop is as long as it is vaguely "English". And all those second-gen varieties developed by Ray Neve like Challenger, Northdown and Target were designed to have more alpha, be more disease resistant, but not taste too "weird" to palates used to Goldings and Fuggles. Having said that, Challenger on its own can be a bit dull. Since it can make a terrific green hop beer I wonder if British farms dry their hops a bit hotter than other countries, because historically brewers were only really interested in alpha rather than the more delicate flavour molecules. Never really thought about that before.

It's also worth mentioning that the 2016 British hop vintage wasn't great, particularly in Kent, I'd be tempted to wait for the 2017 harvest which is being picked as we speak.

Sure, things like Sterling will probably make nice beer - and historically the British brewers have used hops from around the world in their blends, even if it was only because eg Cluster was a cheaper form of alpha that still tasted "right" to British tastes. Now you'll see more bitters made with Cascade than Fuggles (at a guess).

But if I was making my first bitter, and hadn't grown up with them (or only US-brewed Bass, gah), then if I could I'd go for the Fuggles/Goldings combination. It's a bit like a chef learning to grill a steak, or a guitar player learning Stairway to Heaven - you learn the classics first, to give you the solid foundation which allows you to riff away from them later.

Try to riff without the foundations and you end up with the equivalent of a chef mixing anchovies with peanut butter... So I'd suggest anyone's first tripel should use Belgian yeast, their first helles should use Hallertau or Tettnang, their first pilsner should use pilsner malt and so on. Then you can start to improvise.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Northern, how do you feel about Wyeast's West Yorkshire Ale, No. 1469, for bitters, to include Best and "ESBs"?

Well there's the thing, in my head ESBs are so closely associated with London and Fullers in particular that I don't really think of them outside that. I guess the BJCP would put northern beers as ESBs that are stronger than best strength, but to me they're something a bit different, they're not as malt-led as their southern counterparts, more bitter and generally drier.

But for ordinary bitter and best - now you're talking! I must admit I've never used 1469 myself, although it's on the list for some yeast trials I'm planning - my LHBS only stocks dry yeast so I've been experimenting with other aspects of my beer so far. But Tim Taylors makes some of the classic Yorkshire bitters and a Yorkshire best would be my desert-island beer, so it should be up my street! In fact I wonder if it could be quite closely related to Conan - lots of esters and stone fruits and like the Burton yeasts it's meant to be not the greatest floccer.

 

[ericbw]

Are Fuggles or Styrian Goldings really that hard to get Stateside that you have to bother with alternatives? By all accounts Willamette is quite close but just because there's a bloodline doesn't mean they will be the same - Citra has Goldings ancestry but you wouldn't say their profiles are at all similar.

And if you want aroma from British beers - that's the job of the yeast. That's not to say dry hopping doesn't have a place in British beers - it most certainly does - but if you aren't getting yeast esters in the aroma then it isn't British beer. Don't ferment too warm - Marstons pitch at 57F and let the wort rise to 66F. Obvious choices for an ESB are 1968/WLP002, the Fullers yeast, and 1768 from Young's (seems to be a seasonal from Wyeast?).

No, none of them are hard to get here. But for the money, especially for bittering and flavor, Willamette is a good hop. And if the discussion is "should I use Cascade in a British-style bitter?" then Willamette is a better choice that comes from the same place as Cascade.

I didn't suggest Willamette because of it's blood line, but because it is similar (but American).

British bitter is like a hamburger - a "thing" that's the way it is for a reason, honed over decades and millions of serves.

That's not exactly how beer evolves. It's more that beer made in a certain place has certain qualities, driven by ingredients and techniques. No one set out to make the perfect Burton ale. It just so happens that Burton (or where ever) makes beer that tastes a certain way.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Well there's the thing, in my head ESBs are so closely associated with London and Fullers in particular that I don't really think of them outside that. I guess the BJCP would put northern beers as ESBs that are stronger than best strength, but to me they're something a bit different, they're not as malt-led as their southern counterparts, more bitter and generally drier.

But for ordinary bitter and best - now you're talking! I must admit I've never used 1469 myself, although it's on the list for some yeast trials I'm planning - my LHBS only stocks dry yeast so I've been experimenting with other aspects of my beer so far. But Tim Taylors makes some of the classic Yorkshire bitters and a Yorkshire best would be my desert-island beer, so it should be up my street! In fact I wonder if it could be quite closely related to Conan - lots of esters and stone fruits and like the Burton yeasts it's meant to be not the greatest floccer.

Excellent. Thanks very much for a great perspective, Northern. - Paul

 

[khannon]

Will Challenger lead to good results in ESB if used for flavor and aroma additions as well as for bittering? It is defined as spicy, but its spicy characteristic seems to go to waste if only used for the earlier bittering additions. What results might be expected from going 100% with Challenger?

Going out on a limb, Sterling might be interesting here as well. A quite spicy Saaz cross, with Challenger like alpha acid levels.

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

So, one of my favorite ESBs is Bluebird bitter, and it uses challenger hops exclusively, I have brewed a clone twice with
90% Maris Otter
7.5% crystal 10
2.5% flaked oats
I keep the mash temp @ ~152..

and for 11 gal to the fermentor
1oz challenger @ 60
.5oz @30
2.5oz @flameout
have done with wyeast 1968 and a starter stepped up a few times from a ridgeway bluebird bitter.
ferment at ~65 with a step up to 68-70F towards the end to clean up/finish.

Has come out spot on and kegs of it last very little time in my house, though my kid's friends have determined that the beer here is free even if it comes with listening to me talk.

Pours nice, and is *almost* indistinguishable for the original
Kevin

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Absolutely love Bluebird myself, and about 5th down the line, worked on a clone myself. Nice job!

 

[kevin58]

If you follow Ron Pattinson's blog you will find out that in his research of historic brewing log books, English breweries have used American hops as far back as the 1800's. Unfortunately they didn't often record the variety.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Will have been mostly Cluster, as it accounted for well over 90% of US acreage for much of the 20th century. The East Coast had their own hops that are almost forgotten now, and usually that happens for good reason but a reasonable amount made it to the UK from the East Coast in the 19th century.

But it was for bittering, as the "American taste" was perceived as a definite negative. So yes there was some use of US hops in British beers back in the 19th century, but that's not a justification in itself to throw a ton of Citra in something and call it a classic British beer.

Noone in the UK would ever think of Bluebird as an ESB - apart from the fact that ESB just isn't a recognised style here to speak of; inasmuch as it is, it's from London, the opposite end of England to Bluebird territory. But Bluebird's only 3.6%, a classic standard bitter strength.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

With a name like Bluebird, it has to be an ordinary.