Hopbursting - Just Late Addition?

[motorneuron]

When I first read about hopbursting it was this article and this recipe:
http://www.mrmalty.com/late_hopping.php

Though it has 5oz within the last 20 minutes. I found it to be underwhelming. I think the true hoppy beers need include that bittering 60 minute charge and also dry-hopping.

I agree with the bittering hop addition for very hoppy beers. In my experience, beers that have only late hops do not get the somewhat harsher, more powerful bitterness that you want in certain American IPAs. If you want to make a smooth hoppy beer, then yes, the all-late method makes sense. So some APAs and ambers, or a bitter with a high alpha hop, or even some IPAs. But for the real hop punch that many "flagship" American IPAs have, I agree that some 60-minute additions are desirable. (Relatedly, I think that relying on first wort hopping as the lone bittering method is also too smooth for certain beers.)

 

[highgravitybacon]

This problem of "I don't have enough hop aroma and flavor" has a simple solution. USE MORE HOPS. It's really that simple. First wort hop, middle additions, late additions, dry hop in the fermenter at 50% attenuation, dry hop at 75% attenuation, dry hop at 100% attenuation. Cold crash, dry hop again. It's just that simple.

 

[Amarillo4BRKFST]

I have heard some brewers suggest that to compensate for the variety of chemical reactions that work to minimize hop flavor - one should simply add more hops. While I appreciate this suggestion, I like to use that method as a last resort.

For example, Dr. Bamforth talked about all the $$ breweries spend on minimizing O2 in the brewhouse and all the effort they spend rankling maltsters about the enzymes in malt as they relate to O2 reactions - only to fail at making the most optimal decisions when packaging and distributing which lead to more rapid staling.

I want to make sure I am taking every precaution to maximize hop flavor both up and downstream before I just make my batches more expensive to compensate for hop flavor dissipation in beer. If I can make my batches more efficient in regards to hop usage by optimizing my processes, I am going to make all those optimizations and THEN throw more green delicious plants into my beer if I am still dissatisfied.

I mean my last single IPA had half a pound of hops in it - and it was not enough. hop flavor was unstable and inconsistent from bottle to bottle. My germophobic GF is pretty crazy on sanitization so I doubt it is that - It has got to be a process issue.

 

[grathan]

What was the recipe? ALso how much bicarbonate in the water? DId you use any salt additions?

 

[highgravitybacon]

I have heard some brewers suggest that to compensate for the variety of chemical reactions that work to minimize hop flavor - one should simply add more hops. While I appreciate this suggestion, I like to use that method as a last resort.

For example, Dr. Bamforth talked about all the $$ breweries spend on minimizing O2 in the brewhouse and all the effort they spend rankling maltsters about the enzymes in malt as they relate to O2 reactions - only to fail at making the most optimal decisions when packaging and distributing which lead to more rapid staling.

I want to make sure I am taking every precaution to maximize hop flavor both up and downstream before I just make my batches more expensive to compensate for hop flavor dissipation in beer. If I can make my batches more efficient in regards to hop usage by optimizing my processes, I am going to make all those optimizations and THEN throw more green delicious plants into my beer if I am still dissatisfied.

I mean my last single IPA had half a pound of hops in it - and it was not enough. hop flavor was unstable and inconsistent from bottle to bottle. My germophobic GF is pretty crazy on sanitization so I doubt it is that - It has got to be a process issue.

Option 1: Spend impressive amounts of time, effort and energy in looking at your homebrew operation like its a piece of national infrastructure. Examine the whole process top to bottom in the hopes that more hop flavor can be discovered.

Option 2: Use more hops.

Option 1 has two possible outcomes: the same result you are getting now OR a better result.

Option 2 has one outcome: a better result than you are getting now.

Hops cost less than a dollar per ounce. If you make $20 per hour, an extra dollar of hops took 3 minutes of work to pay for.

How many batches of beer are you brewing a year where scrubbing every bit of potential is going to pay off?

 

[smizak]

I'm with bacon, you are going a little too deep into this.

First off, be careful following brewing scientists and pro brewers suggestions when applying to homebrewing. A lot of those conclusions were based on multi-hundred or thousand gallon systems with a whole different set of dynamics and issues. Just add more hops.

How did the pale ale you referenced on 7/4 turn out?

 

[peterj]

I say if efficiency and getting really in depth and looking at every aspect of your brewing process is what you're into then more power to you. Homebrewing is supposed to be fun and enjoyable and if you like breaking down your process and learning about every aspect of it then go for it. In doing so you're bound to learn a ton of new information about brewing science and processes that will end up helping you make better beer. Even if you don't figure the whole hop thing out, I'm sure you'll pick up a lot of other knowledge about brewing.

On a side note when I buy hops they are $1.75 - $3 an ounce. I guess if you purchase in bulk they would be less than a dollar an ounce, but I don't have room in my freezer for that.

 

[Amarillo4BRKFST]

I don't know hops seem to be more expensive here in Austin... not too far off the mark but definitely none for less than $2 per oz. I also stated that I understand that adding more hops is more 'efficient' in terms of time invested in research and review of processes - but when you make an IPA w/ half a pound of hops (which I did right before posting and have been opening up some at ~2/2.5 wks post bottle) and it tastes like a British IPA... nice and mild w/ decent bitterness and no explosion of hops on your palate .... you start to want to ask questions and get it right instead of making a 5 gallon single IPA w/ closer to 1 pound of hops and that is incredibly inefficient $$$ wise.

Water chemistry... I don't know why but when I asked my lhbs about recommendations to adjust for a hoppy/bitter beer they simply told me the water was ok... despite the fact that I know there are several compounds that are deficient for hop bitterness in Austin water. I need to make those decisions on my own then I suppose. Water chemistry is the last area of brewing science I have spent little/no time researching. I did hound down my water company (run by the city) for a report but have not made the necessary adjustments for certain styles.

Also, the pale is still in primary so I don't know how it how it came out... will post! I will be dry hopping it soon then bottling it / taking a sample.

Thanks again for all your posts guys, this is the first thread I've made on the forum and I'm loving the feedback.

 

[Amarillo4BRKFST]

Also HG Bacon I brew around 3 batches / month.

 

[RonPopeil]

I have heard some brewers suggest that to compensate for the variety of chemical reactions that work to minimize hop flavor - one should simply add more hops. While I appreciate this suggestion, I like to use that method as a last resort.

For example, Dr. Bamforth talked about all the $$ breweries spend on minimizing O2 in the brewhouse and all the effort they spend rankling maltsters about the enzymes in malt as they relate to O2 reactions - only to fail at making the most optimal decisions when packaging and distributing which lead to more rapid staling.

I want to make sure I am taking every precaution to maximize hop flavor both up and downstream before I just make my batches more expensive to compensate for hop flavor dissipation in beer. If I can make my batches more efficient in regards to hop usage by optimizing my processes, I am going to make all those optimizations and THEN throw more green delicious plants into my beer if I am still dissatisfied.

I mean my last single IPA had half a pound of hops in it - and it was not enough. hop flavor was unstable and inconsistent from bottle to bottle. My germophobic GF is pretty crazy on sanitization so I doubt it is that - It has got to be a process issue.

i'm not sure which beer you're trying to replicate in your bitterness but, personally, i prefer a fairly bitter beer with a strong hop flavor. I like a beer that feels like about 50 ibu but in order to pull it off my bu/gu is usually closer to 1.00 rather than the .7-.8 that 50 ibu's would usually put an IPA (~1.070)

i've figured this out through trial and error. when it comes to brewing to taste i find that a lot of the theories and numbers have to be disregarded in order to accomplish a set of data that the tongue will interpret properly. try getting 75% of your IBU's from late additions and then the rest at a 60 minute addition. as someone stated above, late additions provide bitterness but the feel in the mouth is much smoother than the IBU would indicate. for some people this means a 60 minute addition is necessary. ymmv

 

[grathan]

An experiment you could try which I found helpful was to use RO water or a bottled water like Poland Springs for a batch you are familiar with and see if changing water.

You still haven't listed any commercial examples of hoppy beers you would like to emulate.


You can buy hops on the internet for about half of what your currently paying.

 

[Amarillo4BRKFST]

Yeah water chemistry is the last 'frontier' I have yet to thoroughly explore - and if I can buy hops online for half of what I'm paying - sign me up! Please lead on sir!

I am not trying to emulate a specific commercial IPA - but I am definitely going for a blast citrus aroma/flavor. The last two IPA's I brewed which I have finally been able to try are better than the one I originally posted about; they definitely smell like acetaldehyde though - took them off the yeast too soon. However the big diff between those two IPA's and the one originally referred to is that I used 7oz of hops in each. Most of it Amarillo.

I'm guessing that the continued lack of appropriate hop flavor is a result of off flavors from inadequate temp control and not enough time on the yeast. It's ironic that the way to solve this problem involves more time on the yeast - which I believe works to diminish hop flavor as previously discussed. I think its a 4 steps forward and one step back kind of thing - you're still three steps forward.

Thanks for the post! Let me know where you get those hops!

 

[grathan]

What hops you wanna buy? I will post the cheapest I can find them. Typically this will mean purchasing by the pound( this may require freezer space for storage).

Inadequate temp control? I didn't see this in this thread. Yeah. Get this under control first. Your not gonna taste much hops if your loaded up with yeast flavors.

Time on the yeast? If your fermenting at 80*F I don't think you need more time on the yeast.

water chemistry - Water high in bicarbonate will mask hop flavors. Not a lot. But it will add to the other off-flavors that are masking your hops. It will also lead to high PH which will extract harsh tannin flavor from the grain which will also help mask hop flavor.

 

[Amarillo4BRKFST]

Yeah I had not spent enough sleepless nights drinking homebrew (not hoppy ones..... the ones that come out ok) and reading about temp control when I first posted this. I have come to the conclusion (unfortunately from firsthand exp) that acetaldehyde is a bitch and fights tooth and nail with hops for flavor supremacy. When some of my bottles were young, I could taste diacetyl - but only after the initial bitterness 'bite' and before the nice citrus finish. When the bottles finished carbing that citrus part was long gone....

My bicarbonate levels are only 67.3 mg/L so not too high.

 

[Amarillo4BRKFST]

Also I have been using Amarillo, centennial, Columbus, simcoe, cascade, citra in varying qty's for the ipa's and pales. Thanks for checking into those hops.

 

[grathan]

Amarillo is tricky to find at times the prices here are really good on the hops you mentioned.
http://www.yakimavalleyhops.com/DomesticHopPellets2012_s/1843.htm

Columbus $9.99 /LB
Simcoe $20/LB
Cascade $14/LB
Citra $22
Centennial $16

 

[Amarillo4BRKFST]

I don't know how they keep their shipping down so low? Do they temp control the hops en route? I think the flat rate from USPS is not temp controlled but I'm guessing that hasn't been an issue as you use/trust their products?

Thanks for the help. Just had a sample of the pale I did my first hop stand with on 7/5 - only a 1oz hopstand but the flavor is nice.
anyways, thanks again for the help w/ the hops.

 

[grathan]

Hops are hops. Pretty durable when vacuum sealed and probably won't degrade on the truck ride one bit. Once you cut open the package your gonna wanna seal it good and freeze it. Oxygen combined with heat will degrade hops, not overnight, but maybe over the coarse of a month you would see a difference. I haven't ordered from this particular vendor before, but I do trust most large online hop vendors.