home brewer laws

[woozy]

So.... four people *can* brew 400 gallons at Fred's house? And if the four people are married or have room-mates, four people can brew 800 gallons at Fred's house?

 

[GrogNerd]

So.... four people *can* brew 400 gallons at Fred's house? And if the four people are married or have room-mates, four people can brew 800 gallons at Fred's house?

house full of illegals across the street from us can brew 3200 gallons

right

 

[ntbritton]

So.... four people *can* brew 400 gallons at Fred's house? And if the four people are married or have room-mates, four people can brew 800 gallons at Fred's house?

Thats what i am thinking. It seems like the general idea is that its per brewer not buy the location. Even if "Fred" has all the equipment stored so the product stays there to be keged for the brewer and by the brewer.

 

[GrogNerd]

Thats what i am thinking. It seems like the general idea is that its per brewer not buy the location. Even if "Fred" has all the equipment stored so the product stays there to be keged for the brewer and by the brewer.

100 gallons for one adult in a household, 200 gallons for 2 or more

 

[ntbritton]

or if brewer one is married= 200, brewer 2 is married=200, brewer 3 is single=100, brewer 4 has roommate = 200, for a total of 700 gal a year, with each staying within the perspective limit.

 

[woozy]

house full of illegals across the street from us can brew 3200 gallons

right

No. Household of illegals across the street from you can brew 200 gallons. They have to move into 16 different houses to brew 3200.

The practical bit seems to be that if eight people want to get together in one person's house and each brew 100 gallons for him or herself but in Fred's house, provided that the brew is for him or her not for Fred and that each can more or less say he or she did the brewing and they don't brew any more beer anywhere else.

The impractical bit seems to say that if your household can go to 200 if you have another adult (need not be a spouse). So if Josephine and Georgette are roommates then Josephine can go to Fred's house and brew 200 gallons of beer.

Loophole seems to be that I can make a list of 87 married non-brewing friends of mine and claim that they came to my house and brewed 17,400 gallons of beer. Of course then the 17,400 gallons of beer is *theirs* and not mine. Of course they can maybe give it to me... I do have generous friends...

 

[woozy]

... and homeless people are not allowed to home brew (which, technically, is a tautology, I suppose...)

 

[GrogNerd]

interesting; the key part is REMOVAL and at what point does it have to be removed?

let's say that one day you have 19 friends come over to the house where you reside by yourself and brew 5 gallons for yourself and each of your friends. once all of you pitch your yeast, all of your friends take their share home.

you could do this 20 times and be in full compliance of the law. federal at least

but what if you keep all that beer while it's fermenting? you're at your household limit for production

BUT! let's say you keg it all in cornies and THEN each of your friends takes their amount home. is it considered removal under the statute and you still have 95 gallons to go to reach the limit?

how about consuming? if you invite your 19 friends back and you drink it all, does it still still count against YOUR household limit?

 

[ACbrewer]

interesting; the key part is REMOVAL and at what point does it have to be removed?

let's say that one day you have 19 friends come over to the house where you reside by yourself and brew 5 gallons for yourself and each of your friends. once all of you pitch your yeast, all of your friends take their share home.

you could do this 20 times and be in full compliance of the law. federal at least

but what if you keep all that beer while it's fermenting? you're at your household limit for production

BUT! let's say you keg it all in cornies and THEN each of your friends takes their amount home. is it considered removal under the statute and you still have 95 gallons to go to reach the limit?

how about consuming? if you invite your 19 friends back and you drink it all, does it still still count against YOUR household limit?

Again, repeat, I'm not a lawyer. I suspect the key would be 'personal use.' If they 19 friends were not using the beer, but giving it to you, it coudl be reasonally agrued that you were making over the limit, not the friends within. I'm not sure how this affects taking a case to a party, but it seems so long as it isn't sold, it could be argued as personal use assuming it is similar to buying beer and bringing it to the party.

 

[ACbrewer]

So.... four people *can* brew 400 gallons at Fred's house? And if the four people are married or have room-mates, four people can brew 800 gallons at Fred's house?

or if brewer one is married= 200, brewer 2 is married=200, brewer 3 is single=100, brewer 4 has roommate = 200, for a total of 700 gal a year, with each staying within the perspective limit.

I'd agree with that, assuming that "Fred's house" is the designated brewery. Be aware that the neighbors might complain and if the TTB shows up, tax law is pay the bill then litigate, not the other way around (ie guilty til proven innocent).

Again, 25.206 and 207 seems to be for addressing clubs brewing and going to comps and such. This provides a way for you and your friend to brew at one house and then each take some, etc. and that the beer is removed for personal consumption, and not for sale. Sale for tax purposes is any exchange for $, items, or services; so trading beer for car work, or ingredients could be construed as a sale.

I could certianly see a club being a good way to go if there wer some major capitol investment things, like high powered steam kettles, controled temp for lagering, etc. It could be less expensive to share these items (honestly I don't know.).

OH another reason for 206,207 - Brew on Premisis - this gives a brew an exception to taking beer from a BOP without violating the tax law.

 

[woozy]

I don't think my scenario is breaking either the spirit or the letter of the law. I'm allowed to brew 100 gallons of beer. It doesn't really matter where. If six of us pitched in together for expensive equipment and we drew lots as to where to keep it and Fred drew the long straw, then I can brew 100 gallons while I'm hanging out with my good buddy Fred. ... but if I do, I can't brew any more beer at my own home. Likewise if I go to a brew making class a the brewstore over the hill and as an end product of the class we each make 5 gallons to take home, then that counts towards my 100 gallons.

What *does* seem like a kind of weird loophole is that if I have a room-mate than I'm allowed to make 200 gallons at my good buddy Fred's house. But it's not *that* weird. It's communal property biz. If I make 200 gallons at Fred's house, then my roommate George can't make any beer anywhere.

As for removing beer from the brew on premise, I think the spirit of the law is that the law *wants* us to remove all the beer from Fred's house. If you let Fred keep the 400 (or was it 800) gallons of beer then it seems that Fred is violating the law and used his friends as a cover. If the friends remove the beer to their own houses then ... well, it's just four guys making beer.

Of course, "personal consumption" is weird. I don't have to drink the 100 gallons all by myself. I can give them to friends. I can give them to Fred. I can give them *all* to Fred. ****ing Fred! What'd he do to deserve all my beer?!? He better pay taxes on them. They're my ****ing beer!

 

[woozy]

Mike: Hey, roomie! You all unpacked?

Jim: Pretty much. I think I'm going to like living here. It's really important that I have common interests with my room-mates so when I found out you were all home-brewers that clinched it for me.

Mike: Yeah! Homebrew rules! *[makes devil horns with his hands and bangs his head back and forth]*

Jim: .. uh... yeah... whatever. Say! Where's all your beer? Where's all your equipment?

Mike: Oh, we've never brewed anything here.

Jim: But, I thought...

Mike: You see, I like to hang out Fred's house. I've brewed 50 gallons this year at Fred's house. And Josephine likes to brew at Sid's house. She's done 70 gallons this year so far. And Sam belongs to a brew club. Each week they meet at the LHBS and brew. He's done 80 gallons this year.

Jim: Well, I got my equipment here. What say we brew up a batch of my famous Jim's Imperial Stout Mostly? Oh, yeah, there's nothing like getting my hands on my equipment and whipping out a batch of frothy JISM, I tell you...

Mike: Oh, you can't do that.

Jim: What? Why not?

Mike: We've exceeded our household limit. You see I've done 50 gallons and Josephine's done 70 and Sam's done 80 and that adds up to...

Jim: *blinks... wimpers ... collapses to floor*

 

[ACbrewer]

That begs the 'what is a household' for terms of the brewing law? Different families at the same address? are they serveral different 'housholds'. Given that you do all your taxes seperately I'd say yes spereate households. And yet easiest way of defining houshold, who lives in the house/appartment/condo/igloo/cave?

I'm guessing since you have to report overages on your taxes (25.207) that unless you are living like some polyamourous group you are seperate households. (geeze, went from legal issues on beer to poly amourousness.. get your post in now before the thread gets locked!). But again, what do I know about how this law is interpereted.

 

[MaxStout]

That begs the 'what is a household' for terms of the brewing law? Different families at the same address? are they serveral different 'housholds'. Given that you do all your taxes seperately I'd say yes spereate households. And yet easiest way of defining houshold, who lives in the house/appartment/condo/igloo/cave?

I'm guessing since you have to report overages on your taxes (25.207) that unless you are living like some polyamourous group you are seperate households. (geeze, went from legal issues on beer to poly amourousness.. get your post in now before the thread gets locked!). But again, what do I know about how this law is interpereted.

I think the interpretation of "household" in the statute would be your domicile, a legal term of art that defines your permanent residence in a particular jurisdiction.

The 200 gallon max per household would apply regardless of who lives there. You could have friends, relatives, polyamourous groups, etc., residing there, but the statute still caps it at 200 with 2 or more adults.


27 CFR 25.205 - Production.

§ 25.205

Production.

(a) Any adult may produce beer, without payment of tax, for personal or family use and not for sale. An adult is any individual who is 18 years of age or older. If the locality in which the household is located requires a greater minimum age for the sale of beer to individuals, the adult shall be that age before commencing the production of beer. This exemption does not authorize the production of beer for use contrary to State or local law.

(b) The production of beer per household, without payment of tax, for personal or family use may not exceed:

(1) 200 gallons per calendar year if there are two or more adults residing in the household, or

(2) 100 gallons per calendar year if there is only one adult residing in the household.

 

[pfgonzo]

Nod. Always read the actual text of the law.

Your local laws may further limit production, or define certain terms like "household" (as the Federal regulations in fact do).

CA for example states:

Business & Professions Code § 23356.2.
(a) No license or permit shall be required for the manufacture of beer for personal or family use, and not for sale, by a person over 21 years of age. The aggregate amount of beer with respect to any household shall not exceed (1) 200 gallons per calendar year if there are two or more adults in the household or (2) 100 gallons per calendar year if there is only one adult in the household.

(b) No license or permit shall be required for the manufacture of wine for personal or family use, and not for sale, by a person over 21 years of age. The aggregate amount of wine with respect to any household shall not exceed (1) 200 gallons per calendar year if there are two or more adults in the household or (2) 100 gallons per calendar year if there is only one adult in the household.

(c) Any beer manufactured pursuant to this section may be removed from the premises where manufactured for use in competition at organized affairs, exhibitions, or competitions, including homemakers’ contests, tastings, or judgings.

(d) Any wine made pursuant to this section may be removed from the premises where made for personal or family use, including use at organized affairs, exhibitions, or competitions, such as homemakers’ contests, tastings, or judgings. Wine used under this section shall not be sold or offered for sale.

(e) Except as provided herein, nothing in this section authorizes any activity in violation of Section 23300, 23355, or 23399.1.

Note the "dozen roommates" argument doesn't work here... or under the CFR, as MaxStout posted above.

 

[woozy]

Hmmm....

Definition of household varies from region to region. In some cases a married couple could have seperate addresses but count as a single household. Families can rent out a room and the tenant would not be considered a member of the household but some jurisdiction do allow for live in servants. Some laws define a "head" of household and boy does that seem archiac. When I used to have roommates it was usually a loose collection sharing a lease and I always thought of it as a single household yet I suppose it wouldn't legally be so (well, maybe as there is one lease-holder "head").

But most laws seem to allow for two households in one address (example; two families living in the same house.)

So I think my roomate scenario wouldn't hold up and four roommates making beer on their own would count as four separate households. Well, someone would have to complain first and then one would plead one's case.

I don't think you can plead separate households if file taxes jointly but I *don't* think filing taxes separately can separate households. (Ex. an adult child living at with his parents.)

Actually the whole thing seems really ambiguous.

 

[ACbrewer]

I quoted earlier 25.205 AND 25.206 and 25.207. Between 206 and 207 there is evidence that you can 'home brew' not in your home, particuarly since 207 mentions removing the beer from the brewery for personal use. take a look at 25.207
§ 25.207 Removal from brewery for personal or family use.
Any adult, as defined in § 25.205, who operates a brewery under this part as an individual owner or in partnership with others, may remove beer from the brewery without payment of tax for personal or family use. The amount of beer removed for each household, without payment of tax, per calendar year may not exceed 100 gallons if there is one adult residing in the household or 200 gallons if there are two or more adults residing in the household. Beer removed in excess of the above limitations will be reported as a taxable removal.

Implication is that the brewery is not the domicile. Thus we get back to 'what does household mean.' found this on the web "The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) defines a member of household as a person who is related to you or lives with you for the entire year as a member of your household" Which is odd, do roomates now need to file joint tax returns?

Since I'm married, and not living wth in-laws or out-laws (one set you are related to through the law, one set you are related to regardless of the law... I'll let the gentle reader decide which are in-laws and which are out-laws). I'm not in a situation where I've got more adults than 2. Additionally, I'm in the situation where I make less than 50 gallons of beer or wine a year (less than 100 total of all types).

 

[jflongo]

Also, if any of you are married, you can double that amount

I believe I'm at 75 gallons right now between, beer, cider, and wine. So "legally" I can do another 125 gallons still since I'm married. But how will they ever know

 

[ingnuty]

Anyone else have a headache?

So technically you could get 100 friends to say they pitched yeast for 5gal each at their house then brought it to your house to ferment... but since each of them pitched at their respective houses theu could do this 20 times each throughout the calendar year and that would get you, what, 10000gal of beer? Haha. This Is all complicated. I'm just gonna RAHAHB.

 

[ACbrewer]

From the census people:
"A household consists of all the people who occupy a housing unit. A house, an apartment or other group of rooms, or a single room, is regarded as a housing unit when it is occupied or intended for occupancy as separate living quarters; that is, when the occupants do not live with any other persons in the structure and there is direct access from the outside or through a common hall.

A household includes the related family members and all the unrelated people, if any, such as lodgers, foster children, wards, or employees who share the housing unit. A person living alone in a housing unit, or a group of unrelated people sharing a housing unit such as partners or roomers, is also counted as a household. The count of households excludes group quarters. There are two major categories of households, "family" and "nonfamily". (See definitions of Family household and Nonfamily household).
"

Which goes the the obvious - everyone living at one address is one 'household'. This is at varrience with explicit tax law with roomates filing different returns. Still why should we expect it to be any different. And one other location commented that the definition of 'household' varries state to state and in the Federal registar. Heck it probably varries in section to section of the Federal registar.

 

[ACbrewer]

Also, if any of you are married, you can double that amount

I believe I'm at 75 gallons right now between, beer, cider, and wine. So "legally" I can do another 125 gallons still since I'm married. But how will they ever know

on the Federal level, you can make 100/200 of Beer AND 100/200 of Wine, the totals are not 'combined 100' I've read over it several times.

States have differing takes on it, and some are 100/200 of all fermented beverages, and some are 100/200 of Beer(products with any malt) and 100/200 of wine(products with no malt, generally of grapes, but also includes honey-mead, and other non-grape fruits). So cider is wine for federal purposes. There are 3 types of federal alcohol. Those produced from malt products(beer), those produced from non malt products(wines), those produced from distillation (spirits).

Look over your state laws carefully.

 

[finsfan]

guys are you thinking this through too much! dont tell neighbors or the police that you brew more then the legal limit, dont brew a million gallons a year and sell it, dont brew 500 gallons at a time and you will all be fine! like others have said here, how will anyone know how much you have made this year unless you profess it? just dont keep a total of 200 gallons of fermenting or bottled beer on your property and you will be fine!

 

[woozy]

"Note the "dozen roommates" argument doesn't work here... or under the CFR, as MaxStout posted above."

But under some jurisdictions your roommates are considerate a separate household altogether.

"The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) defines a member of household as a person who is related to you or lives with you for the entire year as a member of your household" Which is odd, do roomates now need to file joint tax returns?

No, because they are taking "household" to be quasi-synonymous with "family" in this context. If you rent out a room in the attic to a college student and he lives there for the entire year but you never eat meals wiht him and you never take him on weekend trips to Grandma's, then he lives with you but doesn't live with you as a member of your household. Thus he's not a member of your household.

Hmm... "Definition of a x: a particular item that does certain specific things but whose purpose is as x." A bit circular...


From the census people:
"A household consists of all the people who occupy a housing unit..."

But this is only for the purpose of and in the context of the census.

Which goes the the obvious - everyone living at one address is one 'household'.

Except for the cases of homebrewing it doesn't make sense. So what if I'm a lodger in a house with another family. When they brew their beer they aren't sharing it with me so why should the fact that the family already has two adults brewing beer limit how much beer I can brew? Nor when i brew I'm not sharing it with them so why should I limit their brew?

 

[MaxStout]

"Note the "dozen roommates" argument doesn't work here... or under the CFR, as MaxStout posted above."

But under some jurisdictions your roommates are considerate a separate household altogether.

"The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) defines a member of household as a person who is related to you or lives with you for the entire year as a member of your household" Which is odd, do roomates now need to file joint tax returns?

No, because they are taking "household" to be quasi-synonymous with "family" in this context. If you rent out a room in the attic to a college student and he lives there for the entire year but you never eat meals wiht him and you never take him on weekend trips to Grandma's he isn't considered a member of the household.

From the census people:
"A household consists of all the people who occupy a housing unit..."

But this is only for the purpose of and in the context of the census.

Which goes the the obvious - everyone living at one address is one 'household'.

Except for the cases of homebrewing it doesn't make sense. So what if I'm a lodger in a house with another family. When they brew their beer they aren't sharing it with me so why should the fact that the family already has two adults brewing beer limit how much beer I can brew? Nor when i brew I'm not sharing it with them so why should I limit their brew?

OK, this is getting rather pedantic, but here we go anyway...

Trying to read in some other interpretation of the term "household," as it applies to the CFR, is disingenuous. Making an argument about how the IRS (or any other governmental body) views numerous individuals living under one roof, does not inpact the plain language of the CFR. The CFR makes it abundantly clear that the limit is reached once you have 2 or more adults residing in that household. Its interpretation has nothing to do with the IRS' definition of multiple income taxpayers residing in one place. That's 200 gallons in a calendar year, regardless of whether there are 2 or 20 or 200 adults residing there, and regardless of what relation any of them have to one another. And the law doesn't care of they are sharing it with one another.

Courts apply a "plain-language" interpretation to a statute; barring any ambiguities, the court will construe the law based on its language. There is nothing ambiguous in the CFR, nor does it incorporate by reference any definition by the IRS, or any other body.

The CFR is quite simple. I wish more laws were written this well.

 

[pfgonzo]

As as often as you see it work on TV, clever technicalities, or applications of grammar-tiwsts do not often result in a get-out-of-jail free card.

 

[ACbrewer]

OK, this is getting rather pedantic, but here we go anyway...

Trying to read in some other interpretation of the term "household," as it applies to the CFR, is disingenuous. Making an argument about how the IRS (or any other governmental body) views numerous individuals living under one roof, does not inpact the plain language of the CFR. The CFR makes it abundantly clear that the limit is reached once you have 2 or more adults residing in that household. Its interpretation has nothing to do with the IRS' definition of multiple income taxpayers residing in one place. That's 200 gallons in a calendar year, regardless of whether there are 2 or 20 or 200 adults residing there, and regardless of what relation any of them have to one another. And the law doesn't care of they are sharing it with one another.

Courts apply a "plain-language" interpretation to a statute; barring any ambiguities, the court will construe the law based on its language. There is nothing ambiguous in the CFR, nor does it incorporate by reference any definition by the IRS, or any other body.

The CFR is quite simple. I wish more laws were written this well.

I agree with your solution/end result, but disagree with your understanding about the CFR. the CFR which controls the IRS (who is another name for the TTB whose web page has the HB info) isn't clear. But the plain reading would be 'all who live at a legal address.' And it is best in some areas to error on caution than not.

 

[Frige]

Ok so Our Beloved President makes his own beer as well, maybe I do like the guy....naw but anyway. How much beer is he allowed to make? I bet more than 200 gallons. My point being dont sell it, dont advertise the fact that you made 203 gallons this year and no one will bother you. If you give it away to friends and even the local LEOs you will be just fine.

 

[woozy]

As as often as you see it work on TV, clever technicalities, or applications of grammar-tiwsts do not often result in a get-out-of-jail free card.

I don't think anyone is trying to argue that. i think we're just intrigued that we found a bit of law that is perplexing and we're trying to hash it out for the intellectual challenge of it. No-one here's brewing over the legal limit I guess and those who are probably don't care. And none of us have a bunch of roommate elves in to help us break the law.

But it is interesting.

Also there is a "common-sense" aspect but also common sense counter. Three roomates brew 300 gallons. Of course they are violating. A lodger goes to a brew club and brews 100 gallons and doesn't bother telling his landlords. Not so clear... On an intellectual basis it's interesting. On a *practical* level we have to have, by some unlikely coincidence, the landords deciding they want to brew and brewing 101 gallons, and then having the extremely unlikely event someone actually giving a damn and reporting it, and the government actually going through and then the thing being determined by whatever mood the judge happened to be in...

 

[pfgonzo]

Oh I know. All a thought experiment. Just throwing in a little practicality, though if we were being truly practical, I've never heard of this being applied to a home brewer who didn't sell their product. Never seen a forum post, or heard a rumour to that effect.

There're people in my own club that have home systems that blow past the 200g limit in three batches heh. I know they brew more than three times a year, but hey, it's beer! Who's going to narc?

 

[MaxStout]

I agree with your solution/end result, but disagree with your understanding about the CFR. the CFR which controls the IRS (who is another name for the TTB whose web page has the HB info) isn't clear. But the plain reading would be 'all who live at a legal address.' And it is best in some areas to error on caution than not.

I have no misunderstanding about the CFR. The CFR does not "control the IRS," it provides a narrow exception to what is normally taxed and regulated by the ATF. For purposes of that exception, the CFR states a clear definition of "household," a term around which much of this tedious thread has turned. You state that the CFR isn't clear. What part isn't clear to you? Seriously, I'm not trolling--I'm here to help if you're having trouble with this. The CFR means what it says. It couldn't possibly be any more concise or unambiguous. You (and a few others) are reading into something that just isn't there. "Erring on caution" means just stay within those defined parameters. It ain't rocket surgery.

Refer back the second paragraph of my previous post, as that explains how courts construe statutory law.