High Gravity Starter?

[Jordan71017]

OK I'm new to home brewing. Just brewed my first batch (extract) and it didn't turn out. Smelled sweet but tasted sour (not bitter, sour, like lemon juice). Any thoughts on what I could have done wrong would be appreciated but that isn't my main question. I read that it's a good idea to make a starter that has a gravity similar to the wort you are going to pitch it to. Thing is, I'm making a high gravity wort. I'm trying to clone Avery's Maharaja. Probably a bit too complicated for my first batch but it's currently my favorite beer. I just have to have it and Avery no longer distributes to my state. It cost me $21 ($7.99 for the bottle and $13.00 for shipping!) to get a bottle of this stuff shipped to me. Figured it would be a lot cheaper to brew it myself. Anyway, if I make a high gravity starter, to match the wort I'm going to pitch it to, won't the alcohol kill the yeast in the starter before I pitch it to the main wort?

 

[MalFet]

Don't make a high gravity starter. All starters, regardless of ultimate beer, should be in the 1.030 to 1.040 range. Make plenty of yeast.

As for your first batch, it could be a lot of things. What was your final gravity?

 

[Jordan71017]

My final gravity was 1.004 when the recipe called for FG to be 1.020-1.021. I think I pitched the yeast when the wort was too hot but not 100% sure...

 

[MalFet]

My final gravity was 1.004 when the recipe called for FG to be 1.020-1.021. I think I pitched the yeast when the wort was too hot but not 100% sure...

How hot is too hot? It sounds to me like you got a bug, probably lacto or aceto. 1.004 is mighty low for a normal yeast strain.

 

[ChandlerBang]

We're going to need more details. The complete recipe as well as any notes about temperatures and times.

 

[Jordan71017]

You're probably going to laugh or think I'm a moron but truth is I don't know how hot it was. I figured I'd save a few bucks by using an old meat thermometer I had laying around the house. I found out, as I was cooling the wort down in an ice bath in the sink, that the thermometer didn't read below 120 degrees F. It cooled from about 200 degrees down to 120 in about a half hour. I figured if I let it sit in the ice bath for another half hour it would be good so that's what I did. I understand the importance of cleaning and sanitizing so I tried to be really careful with that. I cleaned all my supplies with Oxyclean prior to using even though everything aside from my thermometer and stirring spoon were brand new. I filled my fermenting bucket (7.5 gal) up with 2 oz. of StarSan and filled it up with water until a little foam poured over the top of the bucket. I was under the understanding that the foam sanitizes as well as the water solution. The yeast was White Labs WLP099 super high gravity yeast. I didn't use a starter.

 

[Jordan71017]

Oh and I submerged all my supplies in the fermenting bucket full of sanitizing solution for a minimum of 2 minutes before using.

 

[broadbill]

You're probably going to laugh or think I'm a moron but truth is I don't know how hot it was. I figured I'd save a few bucks by using an old meat thermometer I had laying around the house. I found out, as I was cooling the wort down in an ice bath in the sink, that the thermometer didn't read below 120 degrees F. It cooled from about 200 degrees down to 120 in about a half hour. I figured if I let it sit in the ice bath for another half hour it would be good so that's what I did. I understand the importance of cleaning and sanitizing so I tried to be really careful with that. I cleaned all my supplies with Oxyclean prior to using even though everything aside from my thermometer and stirring spoon were brand new. I filled my fermenting bucket (7.5 gal) up with 2 oz. of StarSan and filled it up with water until a little foam poured over the top of the bucket. I was under the understanding that the foam sanitizes as well as the water solution. The yeast was White Labs WLP099 super high gravity yeast. I didn't use a starter.

No matter how careful you sanitize, if the yeast are dead/killed going into the wort then some sort of microbe is going to take over the wort in the yeast's place.

A healthy yeast population will out-compete those microbes, which is why a proper starter/yeast pitch is essential (this on one reason of many).

Good luck!

 

[ChandlerBang]

Holy crap what are you making that you needed WLP099?

I'm don't think you are a moron for trying to use a meat thermometer. You learn by reading posts on here and making mistakes.
When cooling wort with and ice bath or IC, those last 10* - 15* are a bitch. If you weren't constantly stirring the wort and the ice bath I doubt you got below 80*

It is harder than you think to get an infection. I doubt using a spoon that is clean but not sanitized would do it. There are threads all over this board about guys dunking their whole arm in the chilled wort to fish out a yeast vial and other similar shenanigans.

 

[broadbill]

It is harder than you think to get an infection. I doubt using a spoon that is clean but not sanitized would do it. There are threads all over this board about guys dunking their whole arm in the chilled wort to fish out a yeast vial and other similar shenanigans.

Yeah, but if he killed all the yeast and had 5 gallons of sugar water sitting around for a few days something is going to start growing in it.

 

[ChandlerBang]

Yeah, but if he killed all the yeast and had 5 gallons of sugar water sitting around for a few days something is going to start growing in it.

Very true. And that may very well have been what happened. It's hard to say without knowing the actual pitching temperature. If he was at 120* and left it in the ice bath for another 30 minutes I am assuming the pitching temp was below 90* (temp White Labs says will kill ale yeast.)
On the the other hand, if the yeast were pitched healthy and in the correct amount, I would have expected a violent fermentation at that high of a starting temp.

 

[Jordan71017]

I was trying to make Avery's Maharaja clone from the book "Clone Brews." I was only making a one gallon batch so I multiplied all the ingredient and water amounts by 0.2 (recipe was for a 5 gallon batch). I could give all the details, if needs be, but the only thing that seemed to go wrong (the only thing I had a bad feeling about) was not knowing my pitching temperature. When there was activity in the airlock after 14 hours (may have started earlier but I wouldn't know because I was at work for 10 hours) I thought I was worried for nothing. There was heavy activity after about 3 days and then activity slowed after about 5. I racked into the secondary fermenter after 7 days and dry hopped. It smelled really sweet but I figured awhile longer fermenting some of those sugars would take away some of that sweet smell. I added the rest of my vial of yeast on the 11th day (I only added half on brew day; didn't think I would need a whole vial since it was only a 1 gallon batch) because that's what the recipe called for 3 days before bottling. On the 13th day I was taking a hydrometer reading to make sure fermentation was done when I decided to taste it. It tasted really sour despite it's really sweet smell. I knew I wouldn't enjoy drinking it so I dumped it. The only time it would have been exposed to the air is when it was cooling for an hour, when I changed the water in the airlock every other day and when I was racking into the secondary fermenter.

 

[Jordan71017]

TY to everybody who took time out of their day to help me out with their advice. It's because of people like you, willing to help out, that a discouraged newbie is going to give it another shot instead of giving up. I've got a thermometer on the way from my online home brew supplier so I will make sure my pitching temp. is right with this next batch. If I ever become an expert home brewer I will be sure to pay it forward by helping out future newbies with my advice.

 

[ChandlerBang]

I knew I wouldn't enjoy drinking it so I dumped it.

GASP.

I think I found our problem...
So you also knew how it was going to taste in a month? Three months? Six months? Rarely are average beers done in the amount of time you gave this one, let alone one this big.

The fastest beer I make is a simple extract Hefeweizen and I leave that sucker in the primary for three weeks before going to the keg. It just isn't the best it can be before that.

Read this thread, memorize it, love it.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/ne...virtue-time-heals-all-things-even-beer-73254/

 

[dcp27]

if you plan on re-trying the maharaja, id follow this recipe instead: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/can-you-brew-recipe-avery-maharaja-242812/
or this one:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/maharaja-clone-93250/

im not sure what the clone brews recipe is, but if it called for wlp099 its wrong.

btw, its certainly possible wlp099 at high temps could have left you at such a low fg, that stuff is a beast. 13 days was way too early to assess a beer of this magnitude, and i woudl give it at least 2 weeks before dry hopping or racking next time.

 

[Jordan71017]

I know I'm new to this but it just didn't seem right. I trusted my gut. Have you ever had a beer smell sweet but taste sour? In my experience (which isn't much I'll admit) the taste of any beer I've drank is similar to how it smells. I didn't want to go through the trouble of bottling and the agony of waiting 1.5 months (two weeks to carbonate and it's supposed to be ready to drink a month after carbonation, according to the recipe) just to have it come out like crap. Plus the FG was too low. I'm guessing it would have had too strong an alcohol taste and too little malt taste to it, but that's just an inexperienced guess. Also, the fermenter didn't have a one or two inch layer of kreusan on it when I opened it, which I was told to look for to determine if it was a healthy fermentation. All it had was a very thin layer of greenish brown gunk floating on top. Does that sound right to you? I notice alot of you home brews have an "AHS" before them. What does "AHS" stand for?

 

[ChandlerBang]

I know I'm new to this but it just didn't seem right. I trusted my gut. Have you ever had a beer smell sweet but taste sour? In my experience (which isn't much I'll admit) the taste of any beer I've drank is similar to how it smells. I didn't want to go through the trouble of bottling and the agony of waiting 1.5 months (two weeks to carbonate and it's supposed to be ready to drink a month after carbonation, according to the recipe) just to have it come out like crap. Plus the FG was too low. I'm guessing it would have had too strong an alcohol taste and too little malt taste to it, but that's just an inexperienced guess. Also, the fermenter didn't have a one or two inch layer of kreusan on it when I opened it, which I was told to look for to determine if it was a healthy fermentation. All it had was a very thin layer of greenish brown gunk floating on top. Does that sound right to you? I notice alot of you home brews have an "AHS" before them. What does "AHS" stand for?

Young green beer will blow your mind with the variety or odd tastes and aromas that just shouldn't be.
1.5 months probably isn't long enough for that beer either. That would be a bare minimum.

Krausen is a fickle beast. I think we have decided that 099 was an odd yeast for this beer and it was fermented too hot. Those too factors will change what the krausen does and how it looks.

AHS stands for Austin Homebrew Supply. It is an awesome shop and an awesome website. I buy all of my kits and ingredients there. I like to use his kits to start with, then the next time I will tweak it a little more to my liking and make a custom order. Any order over $100 ships free. I know there stuff is fresh so I can stand to leave it in the freezer a little longer, justifying the $100 order.

Check my tagline for the new brewery he is getting started.

 

[broadbill]

I know I'm new to this but it just didn't seem right. I trusted my gut. Have you ever had a beer smell sweet but taste sour? In my experience (which isn't much I'll admit) the taste of any beer I've drank is similar to how it smells. I didn't want to go through the trouble of bottling and the agony of waiting 1.5 months (two weeks to carbonate and it's supposed to be ready to drink a month after carbonation, according to the recipe) just to have it come out like crap. Plus the FG was too low. I'm guessing it would have had too strong an alcohol taste and too little malt taste to it, but that's just an inexperienced guess. Also, the fermenter didn't have a one or two inch layer of kreusan on it when I opened it, which I was told to look for to determine if it was a healthy fermentation. All it had was a very thin layer of greenish brown gunk floating on top. Does that sound right to you? I notice alot of you home brews have an "AHS" before them. What does "AHS" stand for?

Yeah, but you've already invested the time/money into brewing that batch of beer and it doesn't cost anything to let it sit in hopes that it will improve with age. The "cost" of a batch of homebrew comes from what you spent to buy equipment (already a sunk cost) the ingredients (also a sunk cost as soon dump them into the pot), and the time spent (which also becomes sunk as soon as you commit to brewing). Waiting is the cheapest part of the process!

AHS = Austin Homebrew Shop.

 

[Jordan71017]

Well the book did mention that the beer would "peak" at 3 to 8 months and is cellerable for up to a year. If that's a bad strain of yeast then alot of their recipes are going to be off.....they recommend it alot in their high gravity recipes. What would you use that yeast for then? Wine perhaps? I will use a weaker yeast with a large starter next time. Is pitching a 2nd strain of yeast a common practice, a few days before bottling, in a high gravity beer? Ok I'll have to check them out. They are not very close to where I live though....

Much appreciated.

 

[Jordan71017]

@broadbill

True. Ok next time I will let it pan out and see what happens.

 

[dcp27]

Well the book did mention that the beer would "peak" at 3 to 8 months and is cellerable for up to a year. If that's a bad strain of yeast then alot of their recipes are going to be off.....they recommend it alot in their high gravity recipes. What would you use that yeast for then? Wine perhaps? I will use a weaker yeast with a large starter next time. Is pitching a 2nd strain of yeast a common practice, a few days before bottling, in a high gravity beer? Ok I'll have to check them out. They are not very close to where I live though....

Much appreciated.

I wouldn't use 099 for anything that has a gravity less than 1.120, and even then I don't really recommend it as a primary strain. its better to use to finish off a ferment as its characteristics aren't always great

personally, I'd just use a pack of fermentis S-05 (basically the same strain as wyeast 1056 and wlp001) for this. the 1028 in the 2nd recipe would also work well.

pitching a 2nd strain is kinda a common practice, but usually a waste and passover from the days of crappy yeast. unless its been sitting for months and/or over 12%, I wouldn't bother, and even then its usually not needed.

 

[Jordan71017]

Thanks a lot! Everybody has been a great help!

 

[ChandlerBang]

I wouldn't use 099 for anything that has a gravity less than 1.120, and even then I don't really recommend it as a primary strain. its better to use to finish off a ferment as its characteristics aren't always great

personally, I'd just use a pack of fermentis S-05 (basically the same strain as wyeast 1056 and wlp001) for this. the 1028 in the 2nd recipe would also work well.

pitching a 2nd strain is kinda a common practice, but usually a waste and passover from the days of crappy yeast. unless its been sitting for months and/or over 12%, I wouldn't bother, and even then its usually not needed.

+1 here. Most yeast (pacman, notty, S-05) when pitched at the proper temp/quantity/health/aeration will easily get up to 12% before tapping out.

The important thing is that you realized you made mistakes that are correctable. I have talked to a lot of guys that screwed up one batch and threw in the towel because of it. Don't do that.

I'm nowhere near AHS either.

 

[Jordan71017]

@ChandlerBang

I've invested too much money in equipment to give up after one batch. If I screw up a couple more though, when the cost of wasted ingredients start to outweigh the cost of supplies, I may start to believe I wasn't cut out for this...........

How long does it take you to get in an order from AHS? I waited 5 days to get my order from Midwest Brewing Supplies.

 

[ChandlerBang]

I think it is four or five days. Four days for shipping and a day for order turn around.