Herms?

[Brewsabib]

I'm in the process of upgrading to a 1bbl system and am exploring some options but something doesn't make sense to me. In the HERMS system after transferring to your MLT and starting your mash are you just supposed to wait for your HLT to get to temp before you initiate the system and just hope your mash temp doesn't fall too much? Am I not understanding the system correctly?

 

[maierhof]

In my opinion, the idea of a HERMS system is to regulate the temps in the mash for the duration of the mash.

If your HLT (I take it that is where the coil is in your situation) is not up to temp yet - do not mash in yet. Although I cannot understand why it is not. In your world the mash water (before grains added) temp should be in your HLT temp. Then you take the cover off, start the pump, and wait for it to lose it's greater temp value than your mash tun after you add the grains. It should take just about 5-10min...

I typically mash in with water from my HLT which sits at 159-166F depending on what you are striking in at (I aim at 149-156F) due to the grains being at room temp and depending on your total lbs in grain you need to account for that loss in temp when you strike in. The more you do it - the more you will get accustomed to what happens...

It is late here and I may be brief but I hope this helps...

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I bring my strike water and HLT up to mash-in temp (eg. 150F) before adding the grains. It drops a couple of degrees at mash in, but is back at the mash-in temp within a few minutes.

How big is your system? (I know you said 1bbl, but there seem to be a lot of differing opinions about how big a bbl is). You might have some issues with a herms system this big (might be difficulty to get the heat exchange you need for the volume). I'd be interested to hear some opinions on this though.

 

[acidrain]

Sounds like your HLT is too small.
If after you add water from you HLT to the MT, there is not enough water to cover the HERMS coils, so you have to add more water to the HLT, correct?
Is your mash tun direct fired? You could heat up the strike water in that, then dough-in, and still have heated water in your HLT.
Or, you could heat the strike water in your BK, transfer it to your MT and dough in while your HLT sits at the correct temp.
For what it's worth, I usually dough in and then stir/ let it sit for 5 to 10 minutes while the temp stabilizes and the bed settles. Then I start the re-circ and fine tune the mash temp from there.

 

[Brewsabib]

All great help, thanks!

My system is going to be 1 bbl (31 gallons). Sounds with another 1 bbl system today and he experienced the same confusion as I have been. He dealt with it by direct firing his MT and doughing in from that while heating his HLT to prep the HERMS process. As I only planned for two burners (one on the HLT and one on the BK) I will probably follow Acidrains idea of heating my strike water in the BK and transferring to the MT.

This is my first time using this forum, I can see why it is so popular.

Thanks again.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I'm interested in your system, brewsabib. How long does it take you to ramp temperatures? eg. how long from a 150F mash to 168F for mash-out?

 

[Hello]

All great help, thanks!

My system is going to be 1 bbl (31 gallons). Sounds with another 1 bbl system today and he experienced the same confusion as I have been. He dealt with it by direct firing his MT and doughing in from that while heating his HLT to prep the HERMS process. As I only planned for two burners (one on the HLT and one on the BK) I will probably follow Acidrains idea of heating my strike water in the BK and transferring to the MT.

This is my first time using this forum, I can see why it is so popular.

Thanks again.

I think @acidrain nailed it when he said the HLT is too small. In your case, I would fill the entire 1 bbl (31 gallons in your case) up to nearly the top of the HLT and heat all water to your strike temp. I heat higher than strike temp due to heat loss through the transfer process.

Your coil shouldn't be as big as your HLT. I think it should be towards the bottom enough to where you transfer your strike water and the remaining water still sits above the coil. At that point your heat sources are off as you begin to dough in. Once you've done that, I too would let it rest for 5-10 minutes, probably 5 if the grain bill were smallish, and then start recirculation. I'd set my temp at 152 and with the temp probe sitting in the "out" of my HERMS coil, if that wort that I'm recirculating measures below, the heat source should be triggered. In my case I'm using all electric automated HERMS. For you, you'd see that your temp is off, perhaps there's an alarm on your control panel, and you'd fire up your burner on your HLT until the temp raised back up.

Once done, you continue the normal mash process and then transfer the wort to the BK and begin your sparge process. Your sparge water should be at least the temp of your wort, if you mash out, you'll have to heat that bad boy up quick. My only question is how long would it take to heat your sparge water up to whatever temp you want it to be at? 31 gallons will need a powerful burner.

It makes me wonder if HERMS works well when you get into that size setup. It must have been done, I suspect, but I almost wonder if RIMS would be better.

 

[Brewsabib]

My system is not complete yet so as of right now my HLT at 10 gallons is definitely too small for a full barrel lol

This is all investigative. I'm still considering all options including RIMS, I was just filling in some blanks. This has definitely answered my question and given me some more food for thought.

 

[Zealous61]

In my opinion, the idea of a HERMS system is to regulate the temps in the mash for the duration of the mash.

If your HLT (I take it that is where the coil is in your situation) is not up to temp yet - do not mash in yet. Although I cannot understand why it is not. In your world the mash water (before grains added) temp should be in your HLT temp. Then you take the cover off, start the pump, and wait for it to lose it's greater temp value than your mash tun after you add the grains. It should take just about 5-10min...

I typically mash in with water from my HLT which sits at 159-166F depending on what you are striking in at (I aim at 149-156F) due to the grains being at room temp and depending on your total lbs in grain you need to account for that loss in temp when you strike in. The more you do it - the more you will get accustomed to what happens...

It is late here and I may be brief but I hope this helps...

Old post but have a question about this. If your HLT is at strike temp, rather than mash temp, are you calculating strike temp using the total volume of water (HLT and mash) or are you just using the mash water. And if the latter, are you cooling down your HLT water by adding cold water prior to starting recirculation? If not it seems you would be exposing your mash liquor to very high temps as it flows through the HERMS.

I had been adding cold water to HLT, but I think I'm going to try to just dough in at mash temp and not worry about the short time it takes to get back up to mash temp after the dough in.

 

[Dcpcooks]

I heat to estimated strike temp and recirculate to insure consistence throughout the HLT and mash tun. I have added cold water to the HLT for single infusion mashes. But I don’t if I’m stepping the mash. I like the HLT hotter than the mash for step mashing.



I usually dough in and let the mash settle for 15 min before I recirculate. I leave the lid off the HLT and I recirculate the liquor in the HLT to help lower temps a bit. I also pull a few quarts of my HLT water as it’s heating up. I pull it at 120-125 and then I add it back to the HLT after I dough in to drop the HLT temps.

I don’t know that I’d want to dough in at mash temps as your mash will be below your target temps and you’ll activate different enzymes at lower temps perhaps making a more fermentable wort than intended.