HERMS without electronics ?

[Esmitee]

I have been doing a lot of reading about HERMS on here and the net, but it seems to me, all that I read about has some sort of electric device driving it.
I've been thinking about trying to do a HERMS coil in my HLT and wanted to know if anyone does it, has tried to, or CAN it be done without any electric devices , IE: pid, temp controllers, etc.? I use a propane burner. I have plenty of 1/2" copper coil to use. Just don't know how much to use either. I don't feel it's time for me to turn to electric at this time. Maybe down the road. I also do mostly 10 gallon batches. I batch sparge and use a 48 qt cooler for a mash tun with a 1/2" ball valve and a full bottom manifold inside. I also have a 1/2 barrel keg I could convert to a bottom drain MLT to do even higher OG batches. I have 2 pumps, but only 1 burner to use at this point. I 'm only using 1 pump at this time and keep having to swap out hoses and that's a PITA, and MESSY. Not quite sure on how to plumb my set up either.

Any info about the HERMS main question would be greatly appreciated.
Links, pics etc! And if anyone can help about the plumbing would be awesome.

 

[dstar26t]

Electronic control is certainly not necessary. I just put an immersion chiller (50' lg, 1/2" tubing) in my HLT. One pump recirculates the water in the HLT for a uniform temp and the other recirculates wort through the immersion chiller now heat exchanger. The HLT is on a KAB4 burner that I manually regulate to hold temp. The float on the recirc/sparge manifold is just for sparging. I do all temperature manipulation by hand. There's a thermowell in the side of the mash tun to tell me mash temp and a dial thermometer in the HLT. There's also a thermocouple probe on the mash paddle as a check.





When sparging, I use a grant on the output of the MLT and pump to the kettle. I swap the lines on the HLT so the sparge water goes through the immersion chiller first to rinse it out before it goes to the MLT.



Nate

 

[trussell]

Electronic control is certainly not necessary. I just put an immersion chiller (50' lg, 1/2" tubing) in my HLT. One pump recirculates the water in the HLT for a uniform temp and the other recirculates wort through the immersion chiller now heat exchanger. The HLT is on a KAB4 burner that I manually regulate to hold temp. The float on the recirc/sparge manifold is just for sparging. I do all temperature manipulation by hand. There's a thermowell in the side of the mash tun to tell me mash temp and a dial thermometer in the HLT. There's also a thermocouple probe on the mash paddle as a check.



When sparging, I use a grant on the output of the MLT and pump to the kettle. I swap the lines on the HLT so the sparge water goes through the immersion chiller first to rinse it out before it goes to the MLT.

]

Nate

How's that float switch work, cycle the sparge pump so that the water level stays at a fixed level over the grain bed?

I was thinking of doing something similar on my 5 gallon setup with a couple of these pumps http://greatbreweh.com/Beer_Pump.html

Also allow me to do a whirlpool with my IC at the end of the boil.

 

[dstar26t]

How's that float switch work, cycle the sparge pump so that the water level stays at a fixed level over the grain bed?

Yes

 

[Esmitee]

Electronic control is certainly not necessary. I just put an immersion chiller (50' lg, 1/2" tubing) in my HLT. One pump recirculates the water in the HLT for a uniform temp and the other recirculates wort through the immersion chiller now heat exchanger. The HLT is on a KAB4 burner that I manually regulate to hold temp. The float on the recirc/sparge manifold is just for sparging. I do all temperature manipulation by hand. There's a thermowell in the side of the mash tun to tell me mash temp and a dial thermometer in the HLT. There's also a thermocouple probe on the mash paddle as a check.

When sparging, I use a grant on the output of the MLT and pump to the kettle. I swap the lines on the HLT so the sparge water goes through the immersion chiller first to rinse it out before it goes to the MLT.
Nate

Dstar26t, Thank you for you info....and your Pictures, greatly helps.
Do you have to "Babysit" your burner while mashing? I mean like constantly adjust the heat? or like every 15 minutes? Could you walk me through your brew day? IE: do you heat your strike water in your BK? And at the same time your heating your strike water your heating your sparge water in your HTL? I batch sparge , you fly sparge I see. If so, would you heat your sparge water to a few degrees above your mash temp? As soon as your doughed in, You start recirculating through your coil and recirculating your HTL water. I get the rest of the process.
Thanks again for you input.

 

[dstar26t]

The HLT would be electric if I had enough power going to the garage, that's for sure. I have to adjust the heat every 5-10 minutes.

I heat the strike water in the HLT, 15ºF higher than Beersmith indicates. Pump it to the MLT and let it pre-heat for 15 minutes while I refill the HLT and bring it up to temp. I need more total water than the HLT holds so it takes a 2 stage filling. If I miss the strike temp low for some reason (rarely), I direct fire the MLT before doughing-in but that is hard with bigger beers since I have to lift it and set it on a burner. I missed the dough in temp on a Helles once and put the doughed-in MLT on the burner to heat it but it scorched. It scorched much easier than I expected.

If I ever build a stand (it's been 6 years so probably not), I would have a burner under the MLT to heat the strike water so I could heat the HLT at the same time. I could use the kettle but it would be in the way.

It takes the entire 15 minutes to heat the second HLT filling so by the time pre-heat and dough-in are finished I can start recirculating. I like to get it recirculating ASAP so it's mixing itself for the first pH reading 15 minutes in. The HLT needs to be ~7ºF higher than my target mash temp but I think that's because the HLT temp gauge has drifted.
Just before starting the recirc, I disconnect the clear silicone tubing coming out of the MLT at the pump inlet and let the first chunks of grain drain into a pitcher. The brass QDs I still use can clog and create a huge headache. I add those first chunks back into the top of the MLT and it's smooth sailing.

 

[Esmitee]

Dstar. I'll use your info as my base guide. Thanks for your replies.

 

[RussPDX]

My setup is pretty similar but without such nifty probes and float switches. I run 3 vessel keggle with propane for my main system. Heat strike direct fire in MLT and dough in. At the same time heat HLT to a few degrees above mash temp. I just put my 50' IC right into the HLT and run a chugger pump with silence tubing from the MLT to the IC and back in at the top. I usually let everything settle an Vorlauf manually before running through my pump for a few minutes. I can keep the heat on low and the lid off the HLT to keep the temp right about where I want it. I do watch and sometimes have to turn it off. Pretty simple stuff. The. When I want to mash out it just turn up the heat on the HLT. I move the the outlet from the top of the MLT to the BK when I start to sparge then just flush the pump she I am done and the hot water from the chil down takes care of the IC.




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[Esmitee]

My setup is pretty similar but without such nifty probes and float switches. I run 3 vessel keggle with propane for my main system. Heat strike direct fire in MLT and dough in. At the same time heat HLT to a few degrees above mash temp. I just put my 50' IC right into the HLT and run a chugger pump with silence tubing from the MLT to the IC and back in at the top. I usually let everything settle an Vorlauf manually before running through my pump for a few minutes. I can keep the heat on low and the lid off the HLT to keep the temp right about where I want it. I do watch and sometimes have to turn it off. Pretty simple stuff. The. When I want to mash out it just turn up the heat on the HLT. I move the the outlet from the top of the MLT to the BK when I start to sparge then just flush the pump she I am done and the hot water from the chil down takes care of the IC.


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

Sounds so simple ! It sounds to me that you use 3 burners? Do you mainly do 10 gal batches? Say if your HLT is at 160, a little above your mash temp, and your recirculating through the coil,how long does it take to raise the temp 10*. I understand that if you turn your burner up full blast, it will get there faster, But with your experience, what is your technique? Also, do you tend to overshoot often?

 

[RussPDX]

Sounds so simple ! It sounds to me that you use 3 burners? Do you mainly do 10 gal batches? Say if your HLT is at 160, a little above your mash temp, and your recirculating through the coil,how long does it take to raise the temp 10*. I understand that if you turn your burner up full blast, it will get there faster, But with your experience, what is your technique? Also, do you tend to overshoot often?

With this system I generally do 10 Gal AG batches, sometimes 15 or 20 if I go Partial Mash. In the process of building a 5 Gal AG eBIAB system cause weekend outdoor brewing just doesn't happen often enough. :mug

I actually only use 2 burners. Let's call them B1 and B2, 1 is a Blichmann, the other...well....is not. The Blichmann is WAY better. I put the HLT on B2 and heat to about 158 but it varies a little depending on my mash temp and the weather. This weekend it held me at a perfect 152 Mash which was my target (Belgian Pale if you were wondering).

B1 gets the MLT until I get to strike temp and then I dough in. I have 2 sawhorses that I set up behind the burner perpendicular to each other to make a nice sturdy platform. Once I dough in I move the MLT onto the horses and put a reflectix wrap on it. I brew with a friend so it is not a big deal. We have tried to move it before adding the grain and all that weight, but it is too hot on the bottom from the burner for the wooden horses so the extra few minutes with the heat off is perfect and we are only moving it a foot and at the same height. At this point I had been moving the BK to B1 so that I could heat while sparging. (See below for change)

Then we drop the IC into the HLT, vorlauf the mash and hook up the pump as I said previously. I had to watch the temps in both places for several brew days to get the feel for it but now I can manage the temps well. I can generally hold the mash to within a degree of where want it. The speed of the pump matters alot. I shoot for about 6-8 degrees over mash temp and then faster for colder days where I lose more heat and slower for warmer where I don't need to pass the wort through the HLT as much. I would love a valve to divert around the HLT, but only going so far right now.

To raise the temp I was doing it by cranking the HLT up, but to be honest.....that sucks. It takes about a minute per degree or so which means to get from 152 to 168 is 15 minutes and then if you want to hold it there you have to wait again......I just don't have the patience for that. I was shortcutting and not letting it get all the way up. The last two brew days I made a change. Instead of putting the BK on B1 after the MLT was off as I said above, I put a canning pot with about 3 gallons of water on it. Took that up to just below boiling and at Mash Out time dumped it right in. Heating that up during the mash is no problem as it is a small volume and B1 kicks it. Now the drawback to that is that I have to stir it in to avoid cooking any particular areas of the grain due to the high temp. This means that all the wort clarity that I got from the recirc was thrown out, but I get right to 168 recirc for 10 minutes and start sparging.....fast....easy....and my efficiency has been solid. I am drinking the first batch done that way which is a Porter and I don't notice anything cloudy about it all, although it is a Porter so it can be harder to tell. We will see how the Belgian turns out.

One tip is to stir the HLT often so that you get good heat exchange and try not to open the MLT often but when you are learning your setup you should use a stick thermometer to check areas of the mash to make sure that you are keeping it consistent. Once I got comfortable with that I have started to trust my main front mount Thermometer, but I still double check it at least once in the middle of the mash.

One tip is to stir the HLT often. I also leave the lid off and the flame low, although I still have to turn it off once or twice during the mash. I realize this wastes a little propane, but I am looking for consistancy. I don't want to be always losing heat and then having to bring it back up, by promoting heat loss with the lid off and the flame low I can almost get a balance. I wish I could turn the flame down a touch more and I might be able to really dial it in.

Long winded...but hope that helps.