Help Plz

[bpapi]

Hi Im new to these forums. Im not sure if this question can be answered but Ill give it a try. Im currently working on my science fair project for school and Im turning garbage into alcohol by fermentation and then distilling it so it can be used as an alternative energy source. Basically Im makign ethanol. Im having a difficult time distilling the alcohol. It seems that we only get about a teaspoon for every quart of mash that we distill. The hydrometer estimated that we had a 8% alcohol concentration in the mash. But when we go to distill it we get hardly anything out. We've tried numerous types of stills, one being a teakettle still and the other in a flask. Just this morning I tried distilling 24 ounces of 5% alcohol solution in the teakettle still and I got maybe a tablespoon of solution. This doesnt make sense. Ive tried manuvering the still in different ways it still doenst work any better. Sorry if what I said is a little unclear. I know this is only a beer forum but Im sure someone has to have experience in this type of thing. Here are some attached pictures that Ill use so you people can better understand.

 

[bpapi]

it might be that we dont have enough alcohol concentration in the mixture or that we are not boiling for a long enough period of time. Please some one help because science fair is March 1st

 

[Rusty]

At what temp are you trying to work at?

 

[Janx]

I think you'll probably have to accept that your still is not 100% efficient. No still is, and to get anywhere close you'd have to have access to some pretty spiffy equipment I think.

I think it's cool that you're managing to distill any alcohol at all. Sounds like success to me!

 

[bpapi]

173 degrees F -200 degrees F
Would this then be normal since obviously the still isnt 100% efficient to not be getting that much out?

 

[Janx]

Why don't you tell us your procedure and what leads you to believe you should be getting more alcohol. Maybe there's something you could do differently to increase yield.

 

[El Pistolero]

Just this morning I tried distilling 24 ounces of 5% alcohol solution in the teakettle still and I got maybe a tablespoon of solution.

At 100% efficiency this would have yielded only a couple of tablespoons, and you're gonna have some loss to the equipment, so all in all you're doing pretty good for a rigged still like that.

 

[Truble]

Is your still sealed up good, or are you getting any gas escaping from the joints, like the bung on top of the flask, or the union of the copper cooler in the kettle? I assume that you are using ice water to cool the evacuating steam? Having never distilled an alcohol solution, I am not sure if the vapor is visible when it boils off-if it is not, then you might not see the leaks. Possibly you could try running the still at 212*F with some water, and testing the distillation/condensation process to ensure that it is operating properly. With boiling water, you might be able to better see any vapor loss. Also, you can then measure the pre boil and post condensation volumes to guestimate your efficiency. Probably doesn't translate 1 for 1 over to distilling alcohol, but it should give you an idea for the operability of your rig.

 

[bpapi]

Ok heres what we did. We first gathered potatoes, rotten apples, white rice, sugar, stale cereal and cut up and then boiled. After boiling we mashed everything and covered it up in a 5 gallon bucket. Once the mixture cooled down to around 77-80 degrees F we got some water and put corn syrup in and jump started the yeast. The yeast was poured in the 5 gallon soultion and was in there for 5 days. On the fifth day all the sugar was gone (hydrometer tested) and there was no more bubbles coming up so we knew that most iof not all the yeast died off. We then put in around a quart of solution into the flask adn boiled at 173 degrees to get the alcohol out. The alcohol boiled very fast and was done in about 5 minutes. Most of the alcohol boiled off fast so we then disconnected the flask adn poured out the soultion and then added more solution from the 5 gallon bucket. And the process was repeated. I think that this still was less effiecitn thats why we wrapped it in aluminum foil because the glass was cooler and the vapors were condensing and falling back down into the solution. The kettle still that I desinged was only tested 4 times but seemed to be more effecient. The copper tubing held the heat very good. Im just thinking maybe more alcohol should have been yealded. I have contacted some other people about this and hopefully they will respond.

 

[bpapi]

Everything was sealed very tight with rubber stoppers. The kettle still had a condensor which consisted of copper tubing inside of the empty metal coffee can. The tubing was curled and the ice water was placed inside.

 

[Dude]

Isn't distilling illegal?

 

[Janx]

Why yes it is...

 

[bpapi]

It is but the state scince fair approved us. We filled out all the required paperwork so our @sses are covered. Hahaha

 

[Kaiser]

Wow, this is a grea way of doing it. Get official and legal help on building a still by designating the still to produce alcohol that is not intended for consumption.

Once the still is build and working properly you can change your ingredient from garbage to malt......

:rockin:

Kai

 

[bpapi]

Nah I honestly wouldnt do that. The smell of alcohol makes me feel sick. When I get older its something I can do

 

[Kaiser]

Nah I honestly wouldnt do that. The smell of alcohol makes me feel sick. When I get older its something I can do

Of course, I was just joking: don't do that. Improper distilling can lead to the concentration of higher alcohols which could actually make you blind or have other adverse affects on your body.

Regarding your project, as EP pointed out, do the math and see how much alcohol you can actually expect.

What kind of yeast are you actually using?

Kai

 

[bpapi]

We didnt use Brewers Yeast so that could be a problem. We used regualr yeast which works but may not be as affective.

 

[cowain]

Just this morning I tried distilling 24 ounces of 5% alcohol solution in the teakettle still and I got maybe a tablespoon of solution.

Perhaps I don't understand something here (which is entirely possible since I know almost nothing about distilling), but if the solution is 5% alcohol and there is 24 ounces of the solution, wouldn't you only be able to distill 1.2 ounces of alcohol from the solution, i.e. about a tablespoon of solution?

 

[bpapi]

Hahaha Maybe you are right. I was doing the math work in my head and figured hmmm 750mL at 5% which = 37.5 mL So I made about 2 tablespoons this morning (give or take) and a tablespoon is 15mL so hmmm I guess Im not that far off. Thanks for the correction

 

[Kaiser]

We didnt use Brewers Yeast so that could be a problem. We used regualr yeast which works but may not be as affective.

You actually don't want to use brewers or wine yeast as it cannot feed of starches and higher sugars. It is also not as resistant to alcohol. This is one area in which you would have to do some research: how many sugars/starches do you have in you garbage soup and what is your actual alcohol potential.

But for just a simple proof of concept any starch converting yeast (bakers yeast should do) will work.

I saw a documentary on TV that showed that Brasil makes ethanol from left-overs of the sugar production by fermenting and distilling it.

Kai

 

[bpapi]

It's kinda hard to imagine that that was the only alcohol produced out of all the original. Thats what is hard to think about

 

[Lou]

Perhaps I don't understand something here (which is entirely possible since I know almost nothing about distilling), but if the solution is 5% alcohol and there is 24 ounces of the solution, wouldn't you only be able to distill 1.2 ounces of alcohol from the solution, i.e. about a tablespoon of solution?

that's what i was thinking... also, if you had a bigger distilling flask, you might get better results... i.e., if you're losing even an ounce of alcohol on each boil due to dead space in the system and you're only boiling a quart (at 8% ABV) each time, you're losing nearly half your alcohol into the dead space... if you boil 3-5 gallons without appreciably increasing dead space of the system, your alcohol yield will increase tremendously...
......or maybe not.

 

[bpapi]

Im going to go to a Brewer Supply tommorow and get quality yeast. I will then start another batch of garbage and see what happens. I think as the days go by my partners in the project and I are learning new things which will help us. We can use the first batch as an experimental basis and this batch as the real thing.

 

[bpapi]

Lou thats what I was thinking. But since its for a science fair and everything hs to be supervsed in school we cannot get our hands on a big enough system. In the real world the bigger the better. It saves time from having to keep filling up and emptying and starting over. If you throw say 5 gallons in at a time you will not lose as much compared to if you only boil 1/4 of a gallon each run.

 

[Kaiser]

Im going to go to a Brewer Supply tommorow and get quality yeast. I will then start another batch of garbage and see what happens. I think as the days go by my partners in the project and I are learning new things which will help us. We can use the first batch as an experimental basis and this batch as the real thing.

Make sure that you explain what you are going to feed to the yeast. As I said above regular brewing/wine yeast wouldn't work very well. You may also try bakers yeast (bread yeast). It's cheap and can metabolize starches (at least the ones found in flour).

Kai

 

[bpapi]

I did the mathematical conversions. I believe that we must have miscalculated the % alcohol in the mash. The hydrometer determined 10% alcohol is possible with the amount of sugar that we had in it. We got about 60mL from distillation which the numbers dont add up if we had 10%. We should have gotten minimum 500mL so I think we miscalculated the amount of alcohol in the mash. We had something closer to 2.5-3.5%.

 

[bpapi]

We did use bakers yeast in the first bucket of slop.

 

[boo boo]

You DO know distilling is illegal. Having said that, you aren't going to get a large volume of pure alcohol from a 5% solution. Is that 5% by volume or weight? I...ahem, a friend distilled 5 gallons of off flavored beer and got a flask of decent shine. Not worth the effort put into it.

 

[bpapi]

Ya its illegal but we filled out all the proper paperwork with the state so we could do this project. The distillation process is performed under the watchful eye of a qualified scientist aka a chemistry teacher at my high school. We cant get into trouble the state might because they were the ones that gave us the thumbs up to get working on it. All I know is that my @ss is safe lol

 

[boo boo]

Yeah, I didn't read the last 2 pages before posting, sorry. At least you learn something useful in school. All I did was chase girls and play sports.