Help me autopsy this beer....

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DVCNick

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I took a flier on a recipe, introducing several new variables at one time that I've never used before, which is likely part of the problem here, but hopefully someone knows what this might be.

The beer is a SMASH with Golden Promise (new to me) and Azacca.
Voss Kveik (new to me)
Fermented at 100F (new to me) in a Big Mouth Bubbler. Visual fermentation activity was done after three days.

Problem #1 (I know how to fix this; just adding it for context later): After 5 days I cut the heater in my fermentation chamber and let the temp start to free fall. I figured this would be pretty slow (insulated chamber) and that off gassing from the beer would be enough to maintain equal pressure in the headspace. Wrong. It did take a while to cool, but after a while I noticed that it was pulling in air and probably had been for some time. Oops. So it's going to be oxidized from the start.

Problem #2: Kegged after 10 days in the fermenter. Sample didn't look or taste good. I almost dumped it right there, but figured I came this far, might as well carb it and see. I did my normal carb cycle and sampled it after 7 days in the keg. It still looked like muddy water, and had an unpleasant/harsh aroma and aftertaste, separate from any oxidation issue. Very little hop character (probably an oxidation issue). I'm bad at identifying off flavors, and wondering if anyone knows what this might be based on what I've said so far. Again, I almost dumped it right there, but didn't need the kegerator space, so just let it ride.

Now it has been almost a month since brew day, 2.5 weeks in the keg, and somehow the beer has gotten a little brighter, and the harsh aroma and aftertaste is mostly gone. It doesn't look "good", but not as dark as it was before. I'm wondering if this might just be a function of yeast crashing out.

Hop aroma is still not much, but at this point I don't recoil away from it overall. It is not something I would be proud to share by any stretch, but probably doesn't sink quite to the level of "dumper" for me as it sits. It tastes fairly bland overall, and a little... "acidic". But, I've had worse commercial beers.

I'm guessing I'll have a window of time, possibly now, when the harsh flavor (whatever it is) is degrading, and the oxidation is still tolerable, and I can drink it in that window. Once the oxidation really asserts, I will dump whatever is left. Two general questions? 1) does the prior statement sound like a likely scenario overall? 2) Does anyone know what the harsh flavor is/was, and what exactly might have caused it?

TiA
 
There are many different harsh flavors to narrow it down to. Check out this chart and see it any sound right to you;
 

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I don't know about the off taste, but whenever I use a Kviek, the beer NEVER clears, it stays cloudy forever...I'll still use Voss occasionally because I do like the citrusy/orangey flavor it adds....was 100 maybe a bit hot? I thought 95 was the upper limit on Voss, when I use it, I ferment at 90.
 
I don't know about the off taste, but whenever I use a Kviek, the beer NEVER clears, it stays cloudy forever...I'll still use Voss occasionally because I do like the citrusy/orangey flavor it adds....was 100 maybe a bit hot? I thought 95 was the upper limit on Voss, when I use it, I ferment at 90.
Yeah, it is very opaque and at this point I doubt it will ever clear.

The mfg website says 95 to 104, and I thought orange sounded good, but I don't taste any. I was also thinking of giving it another try around 90f with a grain bill ive used a lot more often to eliminate some variables.
 
That's a good list... Possibly fusel or vinegar.
Fusels develope at higher temps. Even with Kveik. Sometimes age will mellow those out. Vinegar is developed by acetobacter, a bacteria that converts alcohol and oxygen into acetic acid, which is vinegar. However, I highly doubt the latter is what you're dealing with. Try fermenting the same recipe at different temps to see what you like best.

I've found that the yeast companies don't always provide the ideal temps for producing beer, especially when it comes down to different styles with the same yeast.
 
If you are going to be doing several of these beers, then try some different yeast.

US-05, S-04 and S-33 clean up nicely for me and I can just leave the fermenter in ambient air temps of 68-71°F.

100°F fermentation temp just seems wrong and against the natural order of all things beer.

I am still in the camp that says Kveik is a fad and doesn't bring anything useful with it. But not so against it that I won't ever try it. I just have other things to do that don't include it.
 
I've used US-05 and S04 many times at normal ale temps with great/expected results.
This was mostly an exercise in testing out this yeast... I probably should have used it with a recipe I've otherwise done before to eliminate as many variables as possible. But I've done dozens of batches of hoppy pale ale in general, so I still think whatever happened with this flavor here is likely 100% due to the yeast/fermentation temp and schedule.

I have another pack of it and will try it cooler (90F) and see what happens.

I was talking to a couple local friends about it after the brew day. They haven't had the beer yet, and nor had I at the time of this conversation. Both are very knowledgeable brewers and have used Kveik a lot... one of them is a professional. Both said they really don't like Kveik in the end because it throws weird flavors at high temp where it finishes faster, and that it is cleaner at lower temps, but then it isn't faster, and becomes pointless since it is also more expensive.

That wasn't what I'd seemed read online before the fact, but so far my experience is aligning with theirs.
If it is clean at 90 and finishes a week sooner I'll keep it in mind if I need to turn something very quickly, but for now signs are pointing to me going back to US05.
 
From what I've heard, kveik is at best performance at 85F, but I've got very little experience to back this up.
 
Now it has been almost a month since brew day, 2.5 weeks in the keg, and somehow the beer has gotten a little brighter, and the harsh aroma and aftertaste is mostly gone. It doesn't look "good", but not as dark as it was before. I'm wondering if this might just be a function of yeast crashing out.
If you do this again, leave it in the fermenter at least one more week. My two Kveik batches benefited from longer sits in the fermenter. A Cold Crash Guardian or similar apparatus will also prevent suck-back.
 
If you do this again, leave it in the fermenter at least one more week. My two Kveik batches benefited from longer sits in the fermenter. A Cold Crash Guardian or similar apparatus will also prevent suck-back.

I guess this starts to get into what my buddies were saying, if it still has to condition as long as any other ale yeast, what is the advantage to finishing quicker? (Not saying you are saying its better; just a general observation) I guess I thought the whole point of this yeast was high temps and quick turn.

Unfortunately the suckback, while easily avoidable, was something I underestimated, having not fermented at near these temps before. Next time, at either 85 or 90, I'll just stick it in a pressure fermenter so I can give it some bottle gas at the end as it cools. It is an unfortunate circumstance that is muddying the water here.
Just pulled another sample, and I do think the bad aftertaste is pretty much gone at this point. It's just an unremarkable/blah (somewhat oxidized) hazy pale ale right now.
 
Fusels develope at higher temps. Even with Kveik. Sometimes age will mellow those out. Vinegar is developed by acetobacter, a bacteria that converts alcohol and oxygen into acetic acid, which is vinegar. However, I highly doubt the latter is what you're dealing with. Try fermenting the same recipe at different temps to see what you like best.

I've found that the yeast companies don't always provide the ideal temps for producing beer, especially when it comes down to different styles with the same yeast.

I'm thinking you are right on here.
 
I like fermenting Voss hot. No tang whatsoever that way. That's at 35-40 oC.
But I've also found that you need to give it time. I generally aim for 5-7 days in fermenter, 5-7 for carbonating and a minimum of 2-3 days in the fridge.
Voss has been great for me in a hot climate with no temperature control. It definitely has a major advantages under such circumstances, but the "beer in less than a week" is a bit of a gimmick in my book ;)
 
The beer is a SMASH with Golden Promise (new to me) and Azacca.

I did my normal carb cycle and sampled it after 7 days in the keg. It still looked like muddy water, and had an unpleasant/harsh aroma and aftertaste, separate from any oxidation issue. Very little hop character (probably an oxidation issue).
The original post didn't include any details about the hopping schedule.
Any chance the aftertaste was from the hops?
Without a better description of the hash aroma its hard to tell what's going on.
 
The original post didn't include any details about the hopping schedule.
Any chance the aftertaste was from the hops?
Without a better description of the hash aroma its hard to tell what's going on.

Sure, I should have included that. 60 minute boil, all Azacca @ 11.6AA

.5oz at 30
.5oz at 10
2.5oz at 0
4.5oz in 20 minute hop stand/whirlpool.
No dry hop.

I've definitely tasted hop burn before, and while the aftertaste here was, I guess, somewhat similar, I don't think that is it (assuming that is what you are talking about). Primarily because I believe the bad aroma and aftertaste were basically one in the same; they had the same sort of character and faded at the same time and at the same rate. When I've sampled very-hopped beers a little early and got hop burn before, there was no off-aroma element; they still smelled great, at least to me.
 
Adding 7oz of 14-16% AA hops at the end sure seems like a recipe for a harsh aftertaste. What was the temperature for the whirlpool addition? Did you start chilling at flameout?
BTW, since I started using a corny keg w/spunding valve as a fermenter for hoppy brews, many problems have been eliminated, your results will likely vary, but perhaps try it.
 
What I do for hopstands (basic propane fired kettle) is chill for a minute till it hits about 175, then stop chilling, dump in hops, and wrap the kettle in a towel. Stir every 5 minutes or so for ~30 minutes, then continue chilling. Depending on the ambient temp I will usually lose about 3-5 degrees during that time.

To your second point... experimenting with some pressure fermentation on beers like this is on my "to do" list. I would definitely be interested to know more about your process and results on that.
 
I guess this starts to get into what my buddies were saying, if it still has to condition as long as any other ale yeast, what is the advantage to finishing quicker? (Not saying you are saying its better; just a general observation) I guess I thought the whole point of this yeast was high temps and quick turn.
Depends on how picky you are about your flavors. I see it as any time after fermentation is done is about flavor correction and clearing. The quicker the yeast drops, the longer the beer pre-conditions in the fermenter. I go a minimum of 3 weeks, no matter when the yeast goes to sleep.
 
I took a flier on a recipe, introducing several new variables at one time that I've never used before, which is likely part of the problem here, but hopefully someone knows what this might be.

The beer is a SMASH with Golden Promise (new to me) and Azacca.
Voss Kveik (new to me)

Golden Promise is Scottish pale ale malt akin to Maris Otter. For all intents and purposes they are interchangeable. 99% this is not a problem ingredient

Azacca is one of the newer (to me) high alpha American hops. Again 99% this is not a problem

Kviek Yeast - I’ve never used it but its hard not to know about it as its been the subject of every other article in every brewing magazine and every brewing website and every source of brewing information for the past 2 or 3 years.

Its supposedly some “re-discovered” old yeast that can magically make lager clean beers up to 100F. And if you believe that I have land for sale in Florida. 99.9% this is your problem

Fermented at 100F (new to me) in a Big Mouth Bubbler. Visual fermentation activity was done after three days.
 
I mean... there is a lot of land for sale in FL :)

But I agree.
I think the flavor I'm talking about is an artifact of the yeast/temp combination. I don't know what else it could possibly be.
 
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