Heat stick wattage?

[nukebrewer]

I've done some searches and the results I've found kind of danced around what I wanted to know, but didn't quite answer my question. I am planning to build two heat sticks of 1650 W/120 V each and I was wondering if the total 3300 W will be enough to bring 7-ish gallons of wort to a boil in a reasonable amount of time. If the heat sticks end up working well I think I might take the elements off the heat sticks and convert my kettle to electric. Thanks for your help.

 

[sennister]

Is there a reason you are doing two 1650w / 120V elements? I assume you are talking about running both at the same time and if you are doing it because you are trying to avoid dealing with 220V. If this is the case, I think you are going to run into an issue. If you try and plug both elements into the same outlet or circuit, you are looking at a draw of 13.75Amps x 2 or 27.5 Amps. Odds are your breaker is a 15 amp. That won't work so well. So unless you plug into two separate circuits (not outlets, circuits) I don't see how it will work with a normal household circuit. This is why people just go to 220V. Sure it looks more expensive but when you look at what it would take to make it work with 2x120V it becomes a wash.

So if you are on two separate 120V circuits with 2 separate GFCIs then you would be fine unless I am missing what I think you are trying to do.

As for your question, yes, I have seen others do boils with that much power. 3300W is 3300W no matter if it is a pair of 120V elements or a single 220V element. I would just hate to see you go through buying extra stuff with the assumption you can run it all off one outlet or one circuit only to discover you keep blowing the breaker due to way too much of a load.

 

[nukebrewer]

Is there a reason you are doing two 1650w / 120V elements? I assume you are talking about running both at the same time and if you are doing it because you are trying to avoid dealing with 220V. If this is the case, I think you are going to run into an issue. If you try and plug both elements into the same outlet or circuit, you are looking at a draw of 13.75Amps x 2 or 27.5 Amps. Odds are your breaker is a 15 amp. That won't work so well. So unless you plug into two separate circuits (not outlets, circuits) I don't see how it will work with a normal household circuit. This is why people just go to 220V. Sure it looks more expensive but when you look at what it would take to make it work with 2x120V it becomes a wash.

So if you are on two separate 120V circuits with 2 separate GFCIs then you would be fine unless I am missing what I think you are trying to do.

As for your question, yes, I have seen others do boils with that much power. 3300W is 3300W no matter if it is a pair of 120V elements or a single 220V element. I would just hate to see you go through buying extra stuff with the assumption you can run it all off one outlet or one circuit only to discover you keep blowing the breaker due to way too much of a load.

Well, that's one question answered. I can do it with 3300 W. You are correct, though, in your assumption that I was initially planning on running the two heat sticks on my garage outlets which are on the same 15 A circuit. I have other outlets available on different circuits, though, so it shouldn't be an issue to find the amperage to run them without tripping the breaker. The reason I don't go 220 V is that the only 220 V outlets in my house are for the washer/dryer. Thanks for your input. Cheers!

 

[Leithoa]

Unless you have well insulated HLT/BKs it's going to take annoyingly long to get 7gal to a boil with only 3300W. Most electric setups I've seen use +5000w.
7gal takes roughly 8500 BTU to boil(from 60F). Your heatsticks put out 11.2k BTU. 8.5/11.2=0.75*60= 45min to boil with no losses.

 

[nukebrewer]

Unless you have well insulated HLT/BKs it's going to take annoyingly long to get 7gal to a boil with only 3300W. Most electric setups I've seen use +5000w.
7gal takes roughly 8500 BTU to boil(from 60F). Your heatsticks put out 11.2k BTU. 8.5/11.2=0.75*60= 45min to boil with no losses.

Hmmm, well that sucks. Maybe I should just think about powering a more powerful heat stick(s) from my washer/dryer supply. Would a single 5500 W element be a better idea? I think that circuit is 30 A.

 

[sennister]

Yeah, I agree that it will be not nearly as fast as a 220 running a 5000+W element. It would work but it will be slow. I would be sure to start heating wort as soon as you can get enough in the BK to cover the elements.

I would price out the options.

You seem to understand the issue of needing to be on two circuits which is good. Not a lot of people understand that which is why I wanted to make sure that was clear. Not sure where your breaker panel is but what about adding a sub panel? It sounds like you don't have enough space in the current panel to add another 220 circuit. You might be able to relocate some stuff to a sub panel though. If you can free up two breakers next to each other in the main panel which could then be relocated to the sub you could install a 220V breaker in the main panel to feed the sub panel. Then once you have those relocated breakers in the in new sub panel along with your 220v feed to the brewery you would be good.

I feel your pain in that we only have a 150 Amp service coming into the house as we live in a house build in the 60s. Which means we have a pathetically small main panel. With sub panels though I can get enough circuits to do what I want provided I don't exceed 150A total draw at any time. In my case my main is 150A. Then I have a couple sub panels one of which is a 200A sub panel in the pole barn. The 200 has plenty of breaker space. I just have to watch my draw so I don't blow the main. Never had an issue with that.

Also while 110v stuff is cheaper, keep in mind that you will likely want to double up on things like GFCIs and controllers. Which may eat into savings. 220V will be more cost anyhow but like mentioned, it would be faster.

Another option might be to get 220V elements and just power half of it. I think that will work?. It lets you get started with 120V for now without having to rebuy an element later if you go 220V. Not that they are that expensive though. The main time I see 120V being used for an element is in a RIMS application. Not a BK.

If it were me, I would explore all 220v options before going 120. In the end you won't regret 220 but you might in the 120 application. Having 220 in the garage may come in handy later anyhow. What if you want to add a welder. No desire for that, in a few years electric cars become more popular. Having 220 for the charger would be a huge benefit. I have some buddies that have Chevy Volts and one wishes he had 220 in his garage and the other does for this reason.

Another possible source. Where is your AC unit for the house assuming you have forced air. Many times this will be a 220 circuit which you can control when it runs. Extend the circuit to the garage (if possible). Want to brew beer, shut down the AC, brew, when done turn it back on. We are doing something like that. We have an outdoor panel with our AC unit. We feed regular 110V outlets off of one leg. This is used to power the roof heaters in the winter to prevent ice dams and x-mass decorations.

Just trying to come up with some ideas for you that might help.

 

[sennister]

Hmmm, well that sucks. Maybe I should just think about powering a more powerful heat stick(s) from my washer/dryer supply. Would a single 5500 W element be a better idea? I think that circuit is 30 A.

When calculating loads use Ohm's Law.

http://www.ohmslawcalculator.com/ohms_law_calculator.php

So using 5500W and 240V I get 22.9A. So yeah, a 30A circuit would work.

Like I mentioned in my last post you would be happier with this solution.

 

[Leithoa]

Trouble is most home breakers are for 220v which brings the amps up to 25A which is more than the 20% safety margin required by the NEC.

Also in my previous calculations it was boil time for water straight from the tap. If you do AG you're going to bring the water up from 145F, which should only take 20 minutes to boil. at 3300w.

You can heat your mash/sparge water up on the stove, or stove+heat stick. Or use the combine output for mashing and boiling. So you can still give it a try while you sort out the 110/220 question.
If you buy 2x 5500w elements you can run them on 110 and take the efficiency hit and still get ~2400w(8840 BTU) and then use one or both(at different times/circuits) if you switch to 220 service.

 

[CGVT]

I've done some searches and the results I've found kind of danced around what I wanted to know, but didn't quite answer my question. I am planning to build two heat sticks of 1650 W/120 V each and I was wondering if the total 3300 W will be enough to bring 7-ish gallons of wort to a boil in a reasonable amount of time. If the heat sticks end up working well I think I might take the elements off the heat sticks and convert my kettle to electric. Thanks for your help.

I built two and use them every brew day. They are convenient as hell and save me a ton of propane. I use them to heat my strike and sparge water and for my boil(usually supplementing the propane)

They bring 7 gals to a boil in about 15 minutes. The only drawback is if I run two I hav to use two different circuits to keep from tripping the breaker and they tend to get caked with wort toward the end of the boil. I have never had a scorching problem, though.

If you click on the picture it will show the video

 

[CGVT]

BTW, My 110 heatsticks are convenient and do what I want them to do, but they are also a bit of a pain in the ass. I have to run an extension cord for one and and they lose heating ability as the wort cakes on them in the boil. If I was going to go electric in my kettles I would go with 220 and ultra low density elements for all of the reasons that others have stated.

The 110 sticks cost about $20 each. You can build them and use them now and upgrade to 220 down the road (as I plan to do)

 

[nukebrewer]

Thanks for all great information. I'm still weighing my options to see if 220 V will be feasible, which I think I might actually be able to pull off. The only PITA would be needing to run an extension cord to my laundry room.

@sennister: The big thing keeping from doing what you said is that I rent, so I can't go around playing with house's electrical system without the owner's permission and I imagine he would want me to hire a real electrician to do the work which would be crazy expensive. Also, I don't have central air, so I can't do that, but it's a good idea.

@Leithoa: I didn't know there was a safety margin requirement. Thanks for the heads up. If I decide to go with 220 V I'm thinking I'll go with 4500-5000 W which would put me within the safety margin you spoke of.

@CGVT: Thanks for sharing your personal experience with low power heat sticks, so at least I know that if I go with 120 V that I'll still be in good shape, just might need a little propane boost, only not nearly as much as I use on a normal brew day.

 

[nukebrewer]

I built two and use them every brew day. They are convenient as hell and save me a ton of propane. I use them to heat my strike and sparge water and for my boil(usually supplementing the propane)

They bring 7 gals to a boil in about 15 minutes. The only drawback is if I run two I hav to use two different circuits to keep from tripping the breaker and they tend to get caked with wort toward the end of the boil. I have never had a scorching problem, though.

If you click on the picture it will show the video

Also, I forgot to ask, is that video with or without propane supplementing?

 

[CGVT]

That is with the two heatsticks only. I didn't use propane to get to a boil on that brew. I usually use the sticks alone until the the last 10-15 minutes and then I use propane and one stick when I drop my chiller into the wort. (I just got a CFC and so my next brew will probably be done with no propane)

I like that they are quiet and there is so much less residual heat. I built them with on/off switches inline so I don't have to worry about unplugging them, I can just flip the switch to control hot break. I also use one to bring my mash temp up if it gets too low or I dough in too low. I just keep it moving in the mash and have never scorched it.

They are handy tools, even if you had a 220 set up or weren't planning to boil with them

 

[sennister]

Thanks for all great information. I'm still weighing my options to see if 220 V will be feasible, which I think I might actually be able to pull off. The only PITA would be needing to run an extension cord to my laundry room.

@sennister: The big thing keeping from doing what you said is that I rent, so I can't go around playing with house's electrical system without the owner's permission and I imagine he would want me to hire a real electrician to do the work which would be crazy expensive. Also, I don't have central air, so I can't do that, but it's a good idea.

Ahh, yeah, I see your challenges now. I agree. Probably can't make a bunch of changes. What does the electric dryer outlet look like? If it is an older 3 prong I would probably not mess with 220 at your current place unless you can talk to the owner and see if he is willing to upgrade it to 4 prong. Might be code in your area or go with the safety risk approach, you know when your are drying your wet clothing. There isn't a ground in in the 3 prong style plug and you are messing with the combo of electricity and liquid. Real easy to end up with a bad case of the deads when messing with this combo and not the right connections. If it is 4 prong then you could go the spa panel route to add GFCI which is very possible for you. It is what most people here do. If it is 3 prong then I would just go with what you were talking about at the start and that would be 120v separate circuits. Maybe go with the 220V elements on half a leg. Deal with the loss in efficiency like mentioned and maybe your next place will have a 220v option that is more realistic for you.

It is hard to come up with ideas for this not being there and being able to see what your situation is. So I was just tossing out ideas. Maybe they would help someone else later down the road.

 

[dyqik]

Trouble is most home breakers are for 220v which brings the amps up to 25A which is more than the 20% safety margin required by the NEC.

Elements are fixed resistance, which means that lowering the voltage to 220V lowers the current by the same fraction. An 5.5kW element that draws 23A at 240V draws 21A at 220V, not 25A.

 

[nukebrewer]

That is with the two heatsticks only. I didn't use propane to get to a boil on that brew. I usually use the sticks alone until the the last 10-15 minutes and then I use propane and one stick when I drop my chiller into the wort. (I just got a CFC and so my next brew will probably be done with no propane)

I like that they are quiet and there is so much less residual heat. I built them with on/off switches inline so I don't have to worry about unplugging them, I can just flip the switch to control hot break. I also use one to bring my mash temp up if it gets too low or I dough in too low. I just keep it moving in the mash and have never scorched it.

They are handy tools, even if you had a 220 set up or weren't planning to boil with them

Nice. I think I'm going to end up going the 120 V route. Just not setup to make using my one 220 V connection worth the hassle. I figure I'll build the sticks with the 1650 W elements and then keep them around for aux heating like you said when I find a place with easy access 220 V.

Ahh, yeah, I see your challenges now. I agree. Probably can't make a bunch of changes. What does the electric dryer outlet look like? If it is an older 3 prong I would probably not mess with 220 at your current place unless you can talk to the owner and see if he is willing to upgrade it to 4 prong. Might be code in your area or go with the safety risk approach, you know when your are drying your wet clothing. There isn't a ground in in the 3 prong style plug and you are messing with the combo of electricity and liquid. Real easy to end up with a bad case of the deads when messing with this combo and not the right connections. If it is 4 prong then you could go the spa panel route to add GFCI which is very possible for you. It is what most people here do. If it is 3 prong then I would just go with what you were talking about at the start and that would be 120v separate circuits. Maybe go with the 220V elements on half a leg. Deal with the loss in efficiency like mentioned and maybe your next place will have a 220v option that is more realistic for you.

It is hard to come up with ideas for this not being there and being able to see what your situation is. So I was just tossing out ideas. Maybe they would help someone else later down the road.

Next place will definitely have easy access 220 V wherever it is I intend to brew. I think I'm going to stick with the two 120 V sticks for now and mount a high power element in my BK later once I have easier access to 220 V. Thanks for your input.

Elements are fixed resistance, which means that lowering the voltage to 220V lowers the current by the same fraction. An 5.5kW element that draws 23A at 240V draws 21A at 220V, not 25A.

Good to know. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Leithoa]

@dyquik Yes but since most elements available in the home improvement store are rated for 5500w @ 220v you're not running it at below the rated voltage and there is no amperage drop.

Edit: Checked amazon and lowes web page and Camco/Lowes brand elements are 240 rated so the amperage concerns are a non-issue. Though keep in mind running undervoltage cuts into power non-linearly.

And as always: don't take a bunch of internet electricians words for it, it is your life at risk after all.

 

[The10mmKid]

Nuke,
A question and and a suggestion.

1) Why are you not looking at 2000W/120V elements? They will draw ~17A.
All your kitchen circuits should be 20A.

2) You can use a 220V element on a 120V circuit. The output and current will be below 1/2 the element rating.
I.E, a 3500W/220V element will draw ~15A and only have ~1750W output. Thus you can use this element when/if you upgrade. (I don't recall a 4000W element)

'da Kid

 

[CGVT]

Nuke,
A question and a suggestion.

1) Why are you not looking at 2000W/120V elements? They will draw ~17A.
All your kitchen circuits should be 20A.

2) You will have the opportunity to wire these 120V elements in series when/if you do move up to 220V. No loss of equipment, nor wattage.

'da Kid

Damn, I gave bad info

I used 2000w elements not 1650.

 

[nukebrewer]

Nuke,
A question and and a suggestion.

1) Why are you not looking at 2000W/120V elements? They will draw ~17A.
All your kitchen circuits should be 20A.

I'll be using these in my garage since my wife would rather I didn't brew in the kitchen and all my garage outlets are on a 15 A circuit. I do have some outlets on 20 A circuits I could run extension cords to, though, so that might be an idea I can work with.

2) You can use a 220V element on a 120V circuit. The output and current will be below 1/2 the element rating.
I.E, a 3500W/220V element will draw ~15A and only have ~1750W output. Thus you can use this element when/if you upgrade. (I don't recall a 4000W element)

'da Kid

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm still weighing my options, but I will certainly keep that in mind.

 

[dyqik]

@dyquik Yes but since most elements available in the home improvement store are rated for 5500w @ 220v you're not running it at below the rated voltage and there is no amperage drop.

All the ones I've been looking at in Home Depot and on the Home Depot and Lowes websites are rated at 240V. I've not seen a rating given at 220V on any of the elements I've looked at there. And the poster you were replying too was also talking about a 240V rated element. So that's why I assumed a power rating was given at 240V.

Agreed, if the element is rated at 220V the current for that power will be higher. That's why reading the specs properly is important.

 

[sennister]

If you are using a 20A circuit and want to step up the wattage in the element to take advantage of that, you will also want to account for that in your extension cord.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004KF7TSM/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Keep in mind that circuits are fused or have a breaker installed to match the wiring in the walls not what is plugged into it or where it goes. It is a safety deal so you don't cause a fire. It is also why you don't want to just swap out a circuit breaker with a bigger one without replacing the wiring along with it which may or may not be possible. For instance newer homes many times just have Romex run through the studs where older homes it was more common to have conduit runs which you could upgrade wiring. I know in your case not an option but just a general statement for the good of all.

Also you would be looking at 2 x 20A circuits unless you went with one higher wattage and one smaller.

Normally 20A sockets can be identified as they have a sideways prong compared to the normal 15A. This is an image of a 20A socket which should only be installed on a 20A circuit with the wiring to support it. Of course 15A or less devices can be plugged into it just fine.