Head-to-Head: 3 vessel and BIAB

[TexasWine]

Hey gang. Just wanted to chime in and let you all know about a fun little experiment me and a co-worker (we're both process engineers) are doing.

We're doing a head-to-head brew challenge of his 3 vessel approach to my BIAB process. We're using the same recipe, a SMaSH that just so happens to be a Fireman's #4 clone. Many variables will be the same, others different. Below I've highlighted some of the major items below.

Some differences between our processes...
Co-worker: mash time 60 minutes minimum
Me: typically 30 minutes, but went 45 minutes this time because I was cooking and eating breakfast

Co-worker: chills
Me: no-chill, straight into the fermenter bucket

Co-worker: secondary on all beers
Me: never secondary, even when dry hopping

Co-worker: calculates yeast cell count and makes yeast starters, always with liquid yeast
Me: pitch right on top of the chilled wort, one pack for small beer, two for big beer

Co-worker: fly sparge
Me: dunk sparge

Co-worker: outside propane burner
Me: stove top


Similarities for the experiment...
- Grain bill
- Hop schedule
- Yeast used (he made a starter, I just smacked the pack and pitched a few hours later)
- Fermentation temps
- Keg date
- Water (RO water) and salt additions


So far the only differences we've been able to discern are the amount of time we spent brewing (Co-worker: 6 hrs, Me: 3hr 15 min), and the stark difference in our efficiencies (Co-worker: 75%, Me: 88%).

I'll keep this thread updated as things progress. The plan is to have a panel of friends do some tasting. We'll have our two homebrews and the commercial Fireman's #4 available and plan to ask a few simple questions. I'm thinking we ask them to pick which one they think is the commercial beer, rank them from most to least favorite, stuff like that.

Any of y'all have a simple score sheet or fun questionnaire you've used in the past?

EDIT: Added mash times as a difference.

 

[FuriousE]

Cool! I can't wait to hear the results!!

Did you both use the same salt additions to the RO water?

 

[Hello]

That sounds very cool. It would be cool to see the time spent with each step. How long to heat strike water for both, I assume the mash time is the same, how long to sparge regardless of method, and then how long did your buddy take to chill?

 

[TexasWine]

Cool! I can't wait to hear the results!!

Did you both use the same salt additions to the RO water?

Sure did, with one minor difference. I added salts to the mash only. He added them to his entire water volume.

 

[TexasWine]

That sounds very cool. It would be cool to see the time spent with each step. How long to heat strike water for both, I assume the mash time is the same, how long to sparge regardless of method, and then how long did your buddy take to chill?

Ah I knew I forgot something! Mash time!

He mashes for 60 minutes, minimum. Me, 30 minutes. But this time I mashed for about 45 because I was cooking and eating breakfast.

I preheat my water in the oven overnight. My oven actually overshot a little on the temp, so I spent maybe 5 minutes stirring to cool it down. Then I doughed in and put it back in the oven to hold temps.

The time I spent sparging was maybe 1 minute. I pulled the bag, put it in a bucket with 2 gallons of water already in it, and gave it a quick stir. I let it sit for about 10 minutes while I heated the rest of the wort on the stove and started weighing out the hops. When the 10 minutes was up I put the sparge water into the kettle. I have no clue how long a typical fly sparge takes (30 minutes?).

Chilling usually takes him about 15-20 minutes.

 

[McKnuckle]

This is really a macro process vs. macro process experiment. I think there are too many variables to isolate any one of them as a reason for quality differences in the final product. Should be fun to evaluate anyway of course.

 

[soccerdad]

Subscribed.

Oh - thanks for this from the department of redundancy department

I mashed for about 45 because I was cooking and eating breakfast

.

 

[Rivenin]

sub'd.
I've been wanting to BIAB just because winter sucks.

 

[poptarts]

Im assuming you are both fermenting in the same ferm chamber to eliminate that whole process?

 

[mtnagel]

Would have been nice to hold a few more variables constant (yeast, chilling, secondary vs. no secondary), but cool nonetheless.

I preheat my water in the oven overnight.

Say what? Can't say I've ever heard of that. Do you really leave your oven on all night just to heat your water?

 

[TexasWine]

This is really a macro process vs. macro process experiment. I think there are too many variables to isolate any one of them as a reason for quality differences in the final product. Should be fun to evaluate anyway of course.

Oh yeah, I totally agree. We're not looking to nail it down to one thing that causes a difference in quality.

We're just testing big idea really. Can I make beer just as good as he can, in a fraction of the time, and a fraction of the hassle? And throwing the commercial version in there is an added bonus.

 

[TexasWine]

Would have been nice to hold a few more variables constant (yeast, chilling, secondary vs. no secondary), but cool nonetheless.Say what? Can't say I've ever heard of that. Do you really leave your oven on all night just to heat your water?

Thanks. And we're not really looking to isolate any particular item of the process. Just big picture stuff for now.

I set my oven on the "warm" setting at 150°F and wake up the next morning to hot water! It's great, really. No more waiting around on the water to heat up.

 

[McKnuckle]

I think we all know how it's gonna turn out...

Looking forward to reading about it.

 

[mtnagel]

Thanks. And we're not really looking to isolate any particular item of the process. Just big picture stuff for now.

I set my oven on the "warm" setting at 150°F and wake up the next morning to hot water! It's great, really. No more waiting around on the water to heat up.

Interesting. Not a bad idea. My oven is pretty far from where I brew, so that's not super practical for me though.

 

[TexasWine]

Im assuming you are both fermenting in the same ferm chamber to eliminate that whole process?

That would have been ideal, but unfortunately it's not the case. We're assuming that the thermometers controlling our fermentation temps are close enough.

He actually uses a fermentation chamber. I use my keezer. I drop the bucket in, wrapped in a heating pad and sleeping bag, with the heating pad controlled by a independent temp controller. The fermentation temp probe is taped to the side of the bucket and well insulated.

In my little 10 cf freezer I can fit 4 kegs and a fermenting bucket, without a collar

 

[TexasWine]

Interesting. Not a bad idea. My oven is pretty far from where I brew, so that's not super practical for me though.

One of the benefits of kitchen brewing!

Of course, there are some drawbacks too, like having to be careful about making messes.

 

[kh54s10]

Oh yeah, I totally agree. We're not looking to nail it down to one thing that causes a difference in quality.

We're just testing big idea really. Can I make beer just as good as he can, in a fraction of the time, and a fraction of the hassle? And throwing the commercial version in there is an added bonus.

I am not sure about this. I do both and though it takes longer, I prefer using my 3 vessel system, for less hassle. I dislike messing with the hot, heavy, sticky bag of spent grain.

Interesting experiment though. Hope I catch the tasting update.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Both batches brewed the same day?

The chill vs no chill should be interesting to compare as well. Do you move the typical hop schedule toward flameout and beyond doing n/c?

 

[doug293cz]

Kind of surprised by the difference between fly sparge and dunk sparge. I have heard it said or implied (including by John Palmer) that fly sparging leads to better efficiency. Did you collect any data that would allow the separation of conversion & lauter efficiency from the overall mash efficiency (mash_eff = conv_eff * lauter_eff)?

Looking forward to the taste test results.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

I use my keezer. I drop the bucket in, wrapped in a heating pad and sleeping bag, with the heating pad controlled by a independent temp controller. The fermentation temp probe is taped to the side of the bucket and well insulated.

Nice to hear this actually works. I've been toying with a similar idea for running two different temp or temp profile fermentations in my chamber. Two STC-1000's with the cool relays in parallel, and the heat relays running ferm wraps, or something similar, on each bucket.

Brew on

 

[vincentAlpha]

Damn I want to see some photos once this is done, the tasting notes ought to be pretty interesting too!

 

[geoffm33]

Can you ship off some samples to any of our resident BJCP judges?

 

[soccerdad]

Let's all go to the tasting

 

[TexasWine]

Both batches brewed the same day?

The chill vs no chill should be interesting to compare as well. Do you move the typical hop schedule toward flameout and beyond doing n/c?

He brewed Saturday, I brewed Sunday. Close enough for government work.

I've considered moving the hop schedule, but I've been a little too lazy to actually read up on it and figure out what I should be doing. I'll set myself a goal to read up on it before the next brew day.

 

[agrazela]

...So far the only differences we've been able to discern are the amount of time we spent brewing (Co-worker: 6 hrs, Me: 3hr 15 min), and the stark difference in our efficiencies (Co-worker: 75%, Me: 88%)...

Maybe I missed it, but with the big difference in efficiencies, are you guys going to match up on OG and IBU's?

Also, will you be fermenting at the same temperature? Same cold crash schedule and all that?

 

[TexasWine]

Kind of surprised by the difference between fly sparge and dunk sparge. I have heard it said or implied (including by John Palmer) that fly sparging leads to better efficiency. Did you collect any data that would allow the separation of conversion & lauter efficiency from the overall mash efficiency (mash_eff = conv_eff * lauter_eff)?

Looking forward to the taste test results.

Brew on

My bud doesn't keep up with a lot of numbers. I'm lucky he knew what his brewhouse efficiency was, ballpark.

According to Brewer's Friend, I got 97% conversion efficiency and 90% preboil efficiency. That would put my lauter efficiency at 92.7%, right?

0.90 = 0.97 x lauter_eff > 0.90/0.97 = 0.927

 

[TexasWine]

Can you ship off some samples to any of our resident BJCP judges?

Oh, now there's an idea! I'll pitch it to him and see what he thinks.

 

[TexasWine]

Maybe I missed it, but with the big difference in efficiencies, are you guys going to match up on OG and IBU's?

Also, will you be fermenting at the same temperature? Same cold crash schedule and all that?

OG definitely didn't match up, so our IBUs will be slightly different to. Part of the fun!

Yup, we're fermenting at the same temp and going to have the same cold crash schedule.

 

[doug293cz]

My bud doesn't keep up with a lot of numbers. I'm lucky he knew what his brewhouse efficiency was, ballpark.

According to Brewer's Friend, I got 97% conversion efficiency and 90% preboil efficiency. That would put my lauter efficiency at 92.7%, right?

0.90 = 0.97 x lauter_eff > 0.90/0.97 = 0.927

I get 92.78%, but I'm a little OCD about rounding. You got the algebra right. Gotta work on your bud to take better notes when people are watching.

Brew on

 

[Gavin C]

Sounds like a fun comparison.

I suppose the debate prior to doing this was, do we target the same OG and IBU with differing grain bills or take the same grain bill and allow for the differing efficiencies in the end results.

What were the two SG of the batches? Will this have a big impact on the final tastes do you think?

Might be worth repeating targeting a specific OG and IBU.

When do you anticipate the tasting