Grain Mill Heads Up!

[Flue]

Talk about small world....My first National Home Brew day was when I was living in ATL. (I think in 2003) My appointed brew master, since I was and still am a rank amateur, was Don. He had a pretty cool brew system setup then. Glad to learn he got his grain mill venture off the ground. Sorry to see the troubles, though.

 

[TWilson]

I have read numerous articles in the past where people have registered domain names for up and coming companies/products/entities without having any attachment to the company/product/entity. The issue to be careful of is trademark/copyright infringement. There are numerous examples of people highjacking a name and using different extensions. One shining example is whitehouse.gov. That site is fine for kids, but whithouse.com is definitely for adults only. My wife works for the federal government and had one of her subordinates do a little research for her. The subordinate was a little red in the face when she accidently used the .com extension instead of the .gov extension.

This story sounds like two guys operating a hobby business that has grown into something a little bigger. I doubt that they have gone through the legal trouble of obtaining trademarks or copyrights for the brand name. I can assure you that Miller and A-B have. We are talking different entities/situations here. The business sounds like nothing more than a simple partnership. If they didn't put anything in writing, I highly doubt they would have registered as a LLC or a C- or S-Corp. Those business entities all require filing articles with the state. The required filings would stipulate the exact details of the business ownership.

Regardless, let this situation stand as a shining example of why you need to put everything in writing if you are going into business with someone other than yourself. I am an accountant and have seen this kind of thing too many times. It is always messy to try and sort things out afterwards, because it is always their word against yours. Cheese is right, if you don't have experience in these matters, seek the advice of someone that does. Just do it before you get started and not after things are up and running and the partnership is heading south.

 

[davidkrau]

I went with Barley crusher. The price was good and I didn't have to buy adaptors to use wit an electric drill or build a hopperfor grain. Works great and I think it is guaranteed forever.

 

[Cheesefood]

I have read numerous articles in the past where people have registered domain names for up and coming companies/products/entities without having any attachment to the company/product/entity. The issue to be careful of is trademark/copyright infringement. There are numerous examples of people highjacking a name and using different extensions. One shining example is whitehouse.gov. That site is fine for kids, but whithouse.com is definitely for adults only. My wife works for the federal government and had one of her subordinates do a little research for her. The subordinate was a little red in the face when she accidently used the .com extension instead of the .gov extension.

While unethical, it's legal to do so long as you're not using the name to sell a competing product. If he had turned crankandstein into a porn site, that's fine. Even if he used it to sell Iced Tea. But since he's selling a competing product to the same market place, it's illegal. Don can and will show harm committed to his business as a result and Fred will have to fork over most of the profit created as a result of sales from crankandstein.com.

The law was specifically written to protect businesses from this type of infringement.

 

[Jaybird]

as you all know there is TWO sides to every story
Just a thought before you release the hounds
(I own a Barley Crusher)
JJ

 

[Kevin Dean]

he was an employee or a contractor and therefore needs to respect their intellectual property (i.e. their brand name).

Intellectual Property is a self-conflicting and purposely confusing term used to create confusion about what rights people have. In this case, you're (I'm assuming) referring to Trademark law that prohibit competing companies from using an established brand name to market another brand and gain on that first brand's name.

However, if the so-called "Intellectual Property" is actually stemming from copyright then they are FREE to use that name under fair use. Nobody can own information (like a name) but the government sets limits on how those names can be used because it affects customers.

There are numerous examples of people highjacking a name and using different extensions. One shining example is whitehouse.gov.

The term "White House" is too generic to be trademarked. All materials produced by the US Government for non-internal use are entered into Public Domain. These two things together are specific grants FOR whitehouse.com, not against them.

The term "hijacking" implies that it was taken from a rightful owner - nobody owns the internet, including but not limited to, domain names. The fact that ICANN is heavily US controlled is a different issue... Nothing prevents a citizen of Germany from registering "Wal-Mart.org" if "Wal-Mart" is not a registered trademark in Germany and if the domain is unregistered. Contrary to what some people believe, US law doesn't apply to the entire planet and, as such, not the internet.

While unethical, it's legal to do so long as you're not using the name to sell a competing product.

I see no reason it would be unethical in your example of non-competing products. Kool-Aid as a drink and Kool-Aid as an Arctic Conservancy group both seem pretty legit to me. In THIS specific case I'd argue that Monster Mill IS acting unethically even if they're acting legally, CrankAndStein already has an established identity selling grain mills to home brewers, without a CLEAR indication that the grain mills for home brewers THERE are not CrankAndStein it leads to customer confusion.

Doesn't matter who owns the website. If a new domain came out...say .beer, Miller could register budweiser.beer, but that doesn't mean they won't get in serious trouble.

Here's what it'll come down to: who owns the copyright for CrankAndStein? If they were smart enough to register the name, it's a non issue

Exactly why I hate the term "intellectual property"; it confuses the rights that people do and do not have. The media companies use the term to try and make "sharing" and "stealing" to be the same thing when they clearly are not.

The name of a business or a product can't be copywritten. If it COULD, under copyright law everyone is entitled to fair-use of it. Andy Worhol's art proves this as he painted the Campbell's soup logos in his art. They sued and LOST since he wasn't making verbatim copies for the purpose of commercial gain. Under copyright law all people have the right of Parody and derived-works (such as remixing music or video montage.)

More specifically, ICANN does NOT remove a domain registration for copyright infringement (because a domain name CAN'T, but it's nature, infringe copyright) but they DO (and have) removed them for trademark violations like this (potential - if someone actually had it trademarked) CrankAndStein.com one.

Yikes. Sounds like staying away from both Crankandstein and Monster Mill is the best idea...

Large companies sometimes exchange lawsuits and threats to promote themselves. Smaller companies, especially ones building upon their reputations for customer service, can be destroyed by these things. In the case of both CandS AND Monster Mill, the confusion leads to loss of confidence in the product people might buy. And people will turn to other brands they know rather than risk getting the shaft amidst the drama. I hope both of those guys can resolve their issues (they both have them) before they both alienate the people they set out to help: customers.

 

[HenryHill]

"Which grain mill should I buy?" just became a hugely controversial question-having already been a very tough, albeit subjective, one.

Thank God pumps are a clear course...

~HH crosses fingers~

 

[Cheesefood]

"Which grain mill should I buy?" just became a hugely controversial question-having already been a very tough, albeit subjective, one.

Thank God pumps are a clear course...

~HH crosses fingers~

Just get one. A mill is a mill. It's the age old question: to you want longer or thicker?

 

[Funkenjaeger]

Well, regardless of any personal opinion on the monster/crankandstein drama, the fact remains that they're now two separate companies - one with unproven product quality, and one with unproven customer service - and thanks to all the drama, who knows if they'll both stay in business, and for how long? What good is a lifetime guarantee if the company goes out of business?

I wish them both the best of luck, the competition between quality grain mills on the market is bound to lead to ever-better products and prices for us consumers. But, (uncertainty about these two companies) + (the fact that I am more interested in getting a good grain mill now than waiting several months to see which one comes on top) = one new barley crusher, bought and paid for. Phew, glad that's over with.

 

[HenryHill]

Just get one. A mill is a mill. It's the age old question: to you want longer or thicker?

THAT one is easy!

She likes the too long and girthy type-and we're well equipped for that.

 

[Sab]

The monster mill web site is easier to use and more informative compared to the Crank site - so I got a monster mill - the mill itself is super and the collapsible hopper is awesome! I hooked up a windshield wiper motor to it and it is like crushed barley heaven!